General > General Technical Chat
Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
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Ranayna:

--- Quote from: soldar on October 22, 2023, 10:22:15 am ---It is false that a buyer would pay the tax, and send the money, to a foreign seller, out of jurisdiction, who would then turn around and send it back to the buyer's jurisdiction. It makes no sense. The money would be converted to a foreign currency and then back again. The seller could just not send it back. The scheme makes no sense in any sense.
[...]
But if I buy outside of these big platforms from some outfit in China there is no way they would collect any VAT or sales tax and remit it to any western government. They simply cannot do it. I, as the buyer, am responsible for paying VAT and duty when the goods arrive in my jurisdiction. And that is the way it was before the platforms had any agreement to collect taxes. No European tax money went to China, ever.

--- End quote ---
But that *is* the way it is now supposed to work, and *does* work with various sellers.
I picked something random on Banggood.com:

Note the notice: "Inclusive of VAT", the shipping location from China, and the expected delivery date, which matches delivery directly from china.
The VAT notice has a help link:
https://www.banggood.com/index.php?com=help&t=questionCategory&artid=1901&catid=187
And this page describes exactly what @soldar explains. I was not able to find a german address of Banggood, so i am resonably sure that they do not have one.

By the way, that process of getting foreign companies to collect VAT on behalf of the customer was started way before Brexit. I would think that the UK only does that because it's an old EU ruling that was not yet abolished.



mendip_discovery:

--- Quote from: Ranayna on October 22, 2023, 02:51:22 pm ---By the way, that process of getting foreign companies to collect VAT on behalf of the customer was started way before Brexit. I would think that the UK only does that because it's an old EU ruling that was not yet abolished.

--- End quote ---

I am sure I have read that is exactly what the EU have done, it was a planned thing to happen at about the same time as the UK plan. This way the tax offices' get more money and dont have to rely on import paperwork to be honest on the values.
soldar:

--- Quote from: Ranayna on October 22, 2023, 02:51:22 pm ---But that *is* the way it is now supposed to work, and *does* work with various sellers.
I picked something random on Banggood.com:

And this page describes exactly what @soldar explains. I was not able to find a german address of Banggood, so i am resonably sure that they do not have one.

--- End quote ---
The fact that it appears to the customer that the tax money is being sent to China and back does not mean that is what is actually happening.

Those pages you link to do not support your point in any way, shape or form.

We would have to see the actual details of an actual transaction. In any case. I found Banggood has a representative office in Cyprus. So they do have a presence in the EU. And they probably have much more than that as far as shipping, etc.

I am now retired but have spent most of my professional life in purchasing and these things can get quite convoluted. To give you an example, We sold in Spain, to the national phone company, products of an American company, made in China, delivered mostly in China (to be included in a pack),  other times in Spain, and we paid to the American company in a bank in Singapore. I was in the middle of these contracts and negotiations and even for me it was complicated and we had tax consultants and accountants involved.

The notion that tax money would leave the country and return is just, to me, completely preposterous. I have not seen anything halfway convincing so far. Others can believe otherwise.

I think I am done with this issue.

coppice:

--- Quote from: mendip_discovery on October 22, 2023, 03:36:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: Ranayna on October 22, 2023, 02:51:22 pm ---By the way, that process of getting foreign companies to collect VAT on behalf of the customer was started way before Brexit. I would think that the UK only does that because it's an old EU ruling that was not yet abolished.

--- End quote ---

I am sure I have read that is exactly what the EU have done, it was a planned thing to happen at about the same time as the UK plan. This way the tax offices' get more money and dont have to rely on import paperwork to be honest on the values.

--- End quote ---
There was a huge increase in cooperation between a large pool of governments a few years ago over taxation, both company and personal. Governments that wouldn't trust each other over reports of today's weather seem to now be trusting each other to inform each other about the residency of people and the activities of companies.
coppice:

--- Quote from: soldar on October 22, 2023, 07:14:06 am ---
--- Quote from: coppice on October 21, 2023, 11:04:23 pm ---AliExpress has no operations in the UK. If I want to buy from a shop on AliExpress I am buying from the Chinese AliExpress company in China, and they handle charging me, and often delivery, on behalf of the small local traders they represent.
--- End quote ---
Aliexpress has offices and bank accounts in UK and can be sued in the UK. Same as eBay and Amazon.

--- Quote ---https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06030390
ALIEXPRESS LIMITED
Company number 06030390
Registered office address
Flat B, 13 Dawes Road, London, England, SW6 7DT
--- End quote ---
And I do not know if they have brick and mortar stores in UK which they do in EUland.

At any rate, at the volumes those platforms operate it becomes necessary for them to use their own containers, sorting, delivery, etc. so it is unavoidable for them to operate in the destination country if there is any significant volume.

When I have bought anything from China through those big platforms I do not remember ever having received the item posted from China. They have operations where they ship entire containers and then mail from there because it is much cheaper, faster and efficient that way.

As far as the physical package is concerned my government doesn't even know it originates in China.

--- End quote ---
Try looking at any of the information about The UK registered Aliexpress company at the site you linked, https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06030390 . It seems to be just a shell company, with no apparent link to the Chinese Aliexpress, created in 2016 as an offshoot of another apparent shell company called Zaradneski. Its latest accounts show no activity in the past year.
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