Author Topic: Bill Gates leaves MS board  (Read 3586 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2020, 06:15:29 pm »
Software doesn't wear out but hardware does and software will always need to be modified to run on newer hardware. Try installing MS-DOS and 3.1 on a modern machine and using it to post here and watch YouTube.


The cycle is much, much longer today though. DOS/Win3.1 on a modern machine is a HUGE gap, but you can install WinXP or Win7 on a new machine in a lot of cases and you can install Win10 on a 10+ year old machine. It may not be the most painless experience but it will work.

Hardware and software used to both evolve rapidly. I remember being able to upgrade my 2-3 year old PC and get something that was dramatically faster, I could do who categories of things that the old machine wasn't capable of. It's been a LONG time since I've had that experience, even several years ago when I built a new core i7 to replace a 10 year old Pentium4 the difference was not *that* dramatic. Today it's not that a big stretch to use a 10-15 year old system for productive work, while a 5 year old machine is absolutely fine for all but high end niche stuff. That would have been absolutely unheard of in the 90s and early 2000's.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2020, 06:27:33 pm »
It's been a LONG time since I've had that experience, even several years ago when I built a new core i7 to replace a 10 year old Pentium4 the difference was not *that* dramatic.

Yeah, well I also remember going from a P4 (with HT I think) to a i7-920. For computing-intensive stuff, the difference was very significant, but for more mundane tasks, it was almost unnoticeable. So yeah it all depends on your needs.

Another major point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth%27s_law

which makes hardware upgrades progressively look like they are insignificant.

But we're still seeing major improvements with the trend to add more cores. Of course it's useful only for software making full use of that. For servers, the gain is obvious. For desktop computing, it will show only with very specific software such as video or 3D rendering, intensive simulation stuff, etc.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2020, 06:36:48 pm »
Software doesn't wear out but hardware does and software will always need to be modified to run on newer hardware. Try installing MS-DOS and 3.1 on a modern machine and using it to post here and watch YouTube.


The cycle is much, much longer today though. DOS/Win3.1 on a modern machine is a HUGE gap, but you can install WinXP or Win7 on a new machine in a lot of cases and you can install Win10 on a 10+ year old machine. It may not be the most painless experience but it will work.

Hardware and software used to both evolve rapidly. I remember being able to upgrade my 2-3 year old PC and get something that was dramatically faster, I could do who categories of things that the old machine wasn't capable of. It's been a LONG time since I've had that experience, even several years ago when I built a new core i7 to replace a 10 year old Pentium4 the difference was not *that* dramatic. Today it's not that a big stretch to use a 10-15 year old system for productive work, while a 5 year old machine is absolutely fine for all but high end niche stuff. That would have been absolutely unheard of in the 90s and early 2000's.
For the PC platform that is true. I replaced a core i730 (IIRC) with a high end Xeon a couple of years ago and the difference in processing power isn't that much. In the last decade the best performance upgrades I have done where parallel RAID and SSD.

However on the ARM platform there is huge progress. For a project I'm working on I do development on the ARM platform itself. It runs all the tools and IDE necessary. I'll admit it is a bit slower but not immensely.

There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2020, 06:58:50 pm »
The main point is the issue of software "wearing out" is not really a thing anymore, it used to become rapidly obsolete but that has slowed to a crawl, hence the push toward subscription. They cannot entice people to shell out money for a new version every couple of years anymore because the software is mature, the 20 year old MS Office 2000 is still totally usable today, for the average home user who wants to write a document, print a newsletter, put their household budget in a spreadsheet, etc it simply does not matter. Going to subscription allows the company to keep extracting the money that would have previously been spent on new versions while not really having to deliver anything of substance. I mean what more compelling functionality can really be added to Office productivity software? It's a very mature area, it's a solved problem.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2020, 07:12:28 pm »
Agreed. On the topic of MS Office: the older Office software works much better. Try to use style formatting in the newer Word versions for example. It is a total mess compared to Word 2003 and earlier. Learning a new UI is something I can overcome but a newer version being worse compared to the older one is just sad.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 07:16:12 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2020, 09:52:09 pm »
I stopped updating most software after being burned numerous times by newer versions that are worse than old ones. One of my pet peeves is the search functionality. Up into XP search worked very well, it would easily find any files I was looking for. In Win7 search is a lot more cumbersome and less effective, in Win10 search is worse than useless. I use a tool called "Everything" on Win7 and it works the way search should work. I just don't understand how such a basic and fundamental OS feature as file searching could be so badly bungled. It was perfected decades ago, why can't they get it right now?
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2020, 10:27:14 pm »

It's actually kind of funny, Microsoft generated so much bad press for themselves with the release of Windows 10 that many people were turned against it without ever seeing it or using it.


It was another Vista train wreck dumped on the initial victims and 'must have it first-ers'  that copped it for 'FREE', so it got a bad vibe

Anyone with an I.T. clue would not touch it with a 10 foot frozen network cable  :scared: 

Win 10 just needs a few tweaks and or REAL user control options,  to make it a Win-ner   :D

But if MS prefer to keep it as it is, then perhaps they enjoy losing out on OEM pre-paid COA licenses PC income from big players Dell, HP, Acer, and many others
who may be running scared from flogging Win10 as they once did with positive consumer OS 2000, XP and 7,
and hey 8 and 8.1 are ok too  :-+

and MS diehards sticking to their older 'no longer supported' OS with any 3rd party browser and security software  that works   :clap:
or risk customers running for Linux  8)  or Mac ( :scared:) salvation

It's on them really, not the customer who was at one time 'always right'
downgraded now to 'stfu b!tch' 

 

Offline james_s

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2020, 12:34:26 am »
They pushed it SO hard too, surreptitiously slipping advertisements for it onto users PC using malware-like techniques, downloading gigabytes in the background without user permission or informing them of what was happening, deliberately misleading dialogs intended to trick the user into installing it, repeatedly pushing out the update under different names to catch people who had deliberatly unselected and removed it, then quietly changing it to a recommended update so that users with the default setting would wake up one day to find their whole OS replaced. The whole thing was rude and reeked of incredible hubris and desperation. It made me lose all trust in Windows Update, something that previously I had trusted almost completely. They threw that trust away overnight and have done far too little to earn it back.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2020, 01:56:17 am »
I don't think it was a mistake, it was very profitable

That's probably what caused some of the problems, the subscription service was like printing money ... but that business model didn't exactly work on PC. So we got the incredible delays of DirectX 12, until Mantle forced their hand, the dismantling of their PC gaming division etc.

Of course when Microsoft finally did decide to modernize the OS we got UWP and Windows RT, so maybe it was just always a lost cause.
 

Online DimitriP

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2020, 05:27:21 am »
Quote
I just don't understand how such a basic and fundamental OS feature as file searching could be so badly bungled. It was perfected decades ago, why can't they get it right now?

Decades ago, the user had unfettered acces to any and all files.
So did malware installers :)

Now we have "users" like "Local Session ID" and "Trusted Installer".
So you can't just go looking for files ...you gotta use the index ...

   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #60 on: March 21, 2020, 06:43:06 am »
Quote
I just don't understand how such a basic and fundamental OS feature as file searching could be so badly bungled. It was perfected decades ago, why can't they get it right now?

Decades ago, the user had unfettered acces to any and all files.
So did malware installers :)

Now we have "users" like "Local Session ID" and "Trusted Installer".
So you can't just go looking for files ...you gotta use the index ...

Well, the tool "Everything" works wonderfully so why can't that functionality be integrated into the OS? If it's part of the OS, it can be validated and trusted to have access to the files. It's so stupid how it will search the internet when all I want to do is find something on my local machine. If I wanted to search the internet I know how to open a browser and do that. Never once have I wanted to search the web or find an app in the store from the search box in the start menu.
 

Online DimitriP

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2020, 08:39:54 am »
Quote
It's so stupid how it will search the internet when all I want to do is find something on my local machine.

You are just stuck in the "old ways" of getting things done :)
Always beware of smart boneheads with decision making authority.
Every company has one, Microsoft being a very large company has many.

   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2020, 04:01:45 pm »
It's on them really, not the customer who was at one time 'always right'
Though I don't think they handled it well, they are kind of between a rock and a hard place. Google and Apple.

Google can do everything cheaper, because they datamine their customers with no restraint. Apple's reality distortion field allows them to pull customers and devs along at a much higher pace and turn old OS versions into abandonware without anyone batting an eye. That combined with the stable hardware platforms makes them hard to compete against for Microsoft. Having a single Windows for almost everyone which just continually updates would make it a bit easier for them to compete.

When all customers are always right, you get a really messy codebase.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2020, 06:58:12 pm »
One thing I'm wondering - this is purely hypothetical - is: what if MS eventually open-sourced Windows, or at least the Windows kernel?

Would that spark a real interest (beyond just for legacy reasons), would some people/companies actually choose Windows over say Linux (again if there was no legacy reason forcing them to choose Windows only)?

 

Offline MadTux

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2020, 08:08:56 pm »
One thing I'm wondering - this is purely hypothetical - is: what if MS eventually open-sourced Windows, or at least the Windows kernel?

Would that spark a real interest (beyond just for legacy reasons), would some people/companies actually choose Windows over say Linux (again if there was no legacy reason forcing them to choose Windows only)?

Probably no, but building Windows API integration into Linux would be much easier, since Wine is mostly done by reverse engineering.

I guess cleaning Windows code mess back into a slick and fast operating system would take a while. The first thing that probably would happen is that it gets a new and more usable Window manager.
 

Online rdl

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2020, 08:28:24 pm »
I doubt an open source version of Windows would see much interest. I think if they released a consumer oriented, subscription version of Enterprise Windows 10 with its better control over Microsoft's shenanigans, they would probably make more money than whatever they're getting now from the "free" version of Windows 10. As long as the rent was reasonable.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2020, 11:52:29 pm »
Don't give them any ideas. To each their own, but I steadfastly refuse to rent software. I don't need or want it to be constantly twiddled with following the latest fads. I don't know whether open source would matter or not, Windows is already effectively free, instead of charging for the product they are trying to monetize the users and use Windows as a platform to push MS services. I recognize the dilemma they face but I refuse to play that game.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2020, 11:59:20 pm »
Why rent software if paid software and freeware from 10 years ago still gets it done in most cases. Just rent any current 'must have' software you need, not the entire OS.
It's machine code, not a car or truck or tools with parts and consumables to wear out  ::) 

 The OEM PC sellers Dell, HP, Acer etc should pressure MS for Win 10 Home/Pro version/s that can be fully User controlled
and auto activated via Bios boot stuff etc as used to be the case since XP right up to 7.

This way MS get their license money up front, the OEMs sell their PCs complete with OS and legit COA,
and the customer fires up their new Win 10 PC that just works out of the box,
with an OS that behaves and does what it's TOLD,
an OS that doesn't meander off to the internet to play the sneaky unauthorized update game,
messing up or confusing system files on what was a stable PC the day before,
with the user going nuts  |O  believing THEY did something wrong   :-[  or got 'hacked' by their ex or the cable guy  :scared:

But..that's just TOO EASY, right?  :horse:
and what would peeps blabbing on an electronics forum know anyway how computers and business works ?  :popcorn:

 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #68 on: March 22, 2020, 01:35:22 am »
The OEM PC sellers Dell, HP, Acer etc should pressure MS for Win 10 Home/Pro version/s that can be fully User controlled and auto activated via Bios boot stuff etc as used to be the case since XP right up to 7.

That's not how it works. The race is always down to the bottom. With Apple and Google offering free AD-ware OSes, MSFT has to do the same to keep market share.

Also BIOS licensing is proven to be useless. Grub or other bootloaders can emulate BIOS, making this completely useless.
Till this day, no one has truly cracked Windows 10. KMS is an MSFT approved way of activation for deep LAN users, and all root keys of illegal KMS activators are released by MSFT.
Cheap keys online are also indirectly provided by MSFT in one way or another (MSDN, etc.), and upon Internet activation, MSFT will have to approve it in order for it to work.
So, MSFT controls 100% of pirate copies of Windows 10. If MSFT gets itself into a debt, it can technically ask money from all pirate users later. It's not like it has never done that before.

If MSFT would have local activation like BIOS activation, Windows 10 would have already been totally cracked and MSFT would have lost all track to illegal users (to send legal letters to).
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2020, 02:27:51 am »
What adware is in Apple's OS's? I'm not an apple fanboy but I do have a macbook at work and an iphone at home and I don't recall seeing an ad or promotion in the OS. Some of the apps you can get are ad supported but the ones you pay for are typically not.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2020, 04:35:52 am »
What adware is in Apple's OS's? I'm not an apple fanboy but I do have a macbook at work and an iphone at home and I don't recall seeing an ad or promotion in the OS. Some of the apps you can get are ad supported but the ones you pay for are typically not.

Paid (for upgrade) services like iCloud, for instance. To be fair, MSFT also doesn't insert nearly as many ADs as Google. Most ADs from MSFT are either promotional apps, which can be removed, or MSFT's own services like MSFT Account and OneDrive and Office 365.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2020, 08:49:00 am »
Thanks blueskull   :-+   I wasn't aware (or paid attention/cared TBH) that operating systems have devolved into a data mining circus side show  ::)

I'll stick to my vintage 'no longer supported' paid up legit OEM OS's and apps that still work  :clap:

and keep them alive with 3rd party browsers and anti-malware programs that are supported by real people with email addresses
that reply asap, and resolve any issues =  :o   


There's enough to think about in 2020, without a bossy boots smart@ss OS Fing things up  :phew:

« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 01:55:41 am by Electro Detective »
 

Online rdl

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2020, 05:30:22 pm »
Sadly, Windows is a necessity if you play games. A game I really want to play that only runs on Windows 10 would be the only reason for me to install it. And that is almost certain to happen eventually.

I did take a look at Windows 10 last year to see for myself how bad it really was. Within an hour I found at least five things about it that I know I couldn't put up with on a day to day basis. I'm pretty sure it can be fixed, but I'd be willing to pay a couple of bucks a month to save me from fighting with it.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #73 on: March 22, 2020, 05:35:30 pm »
Sadly, Windows is a necessity if you play games. A game I really want to play that only runs on Windows 10 would be the only reason for me to install it. And that is almost certain to happen eventually.

Yeah. If you're a "serious" gamer, I can see why that would be a problem not having Windows. I myself only use (sparingly) gaming consoles these days for games, but that doesn't fit everyone.

One application (even though I haven't used that in a while now) I would sort of miss is Flight Simulator X. Fortunately, it can run on older versions of Windows so you can grab just any (starting with Win2000 I think? Or XP? I've used it on Win 7 and it runs fine.) There is no equivalent on other platforms IMO. Sure there is XPlane, but I still tend to like MS FSX better overall. I've heard MS was planning to get back to it and finally release a new version. Dunno how that's coming along... haven't heard about it in a while.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Bill Gates leaves MS board
« Reply #74 on: March 22, 2020, 07:49:59 pm »
No argument there, even my friend who has been a hardcore Linux guy using it as his primary OS for >10 years has a Windows machine for gaming. I haven't been much of a gamer in years and most of the games I do still play occasionally will either run in Dosbox or like Doom and Duke3d have new engines that will run under Linux so I'm pretty well set. If you want to play the latest PC games though there is really no other option but computers are cheap enough that it's not unreasonable to have a dedicated gaming PC along with a laptop or other computers for other tasks.
 


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