EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: Refrigerator on February 02, 2017, 06:17:47 pm
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My dad just got himself a new laptop and it had win 10 on it.
Took about 30 minutes to boot the laptop to the desktop. :-//
In 30 min i can put a full install of Win7, god dammit.
Bastard OS loads the CPU, bashes the HDD at 100% and eats 2gigs of RAM while it's at it on idle. :rant:
I don't know a thing about Win10 but i don't think this is normal, this chewing 50% of RAM on idle thing.
Also when viewing YT video full screen the damn taskbar doesn't go away.
If Win10 was made to piss people off then Microsoft did a damn good job at it. :clap:
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It's not at idle, it's collecting all your data and sending it MS. It has a keylogger and will use your PC and a distribution center to feed the community it's updates (yes, you will be serving MS updates to your community)
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On a 'new' laptop or desktop, Windows 7 was no better. Nor was Vista. Nor XP.
First thing you should always do when buying a new computer from a big name manufacturer is reinstall Windows from media made with the official Windows media creation tool. Preinstalled Windows is almost always full of terrible, performance-killing junk. Its not worth trying to remove it. And its been like that for.... 15 years at least?
At least with Windows 10 this process only takes 20-30 minutes or so since the creation tool includes the updates. With Windows 7 and below, you're looking at a dozen update/reboot iterations after an install at minimum. NO WAY you are installing W7 from blank HD to fully updated in 30 minutes.
My Windows 10 Desktop PC takes less than 5 seconds to boot from power button to login prompt. Its usually ready by the time I move my hand from the button to the keyboard. Windows 10 is also MUCH easier on RAM thanks to memory compression- even Non-windows things like Chrome and games will use much less RAM.
There are plenty of reasons to criticize Windows 10. Performance is not one of them.
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Look, tax season is coming up. I am genuinely concerned about it this time around.
All I mean all the personal data, data that would be different between two different users of the exact same machine and sw builds.
Listen, I had a flip phone with a very cheasy camera. It was not a smart phone at all and I did not have a data plan at all nor any internet on the phone. I did not even have text service. When I got a new smart phone for the first time, the rep asked if I wanted my data from my old phone. I said sure and pulled out my old flip phone, which had been turned off since we started the new purchase. The rep said I won't need that, he'd take care of it. I walked out the store and in the parking lot discovered that all my cheesy photos and my contacts were all on my new phone. How was that possible? They had already swiped all my personal data, my photos and contacts. I believe and will not be convinced otherwise that all these large companies are collecting everything. and I mean all of it. Because they can, there is not precedence in law to stop them, and just cuz they can and you cannot know or stop them. Because our computers and networks are totally insecure. There is no hope for security at all. I do not believe it. The smart folks and hackers see through everything like it was invisible air. The gov is looking too.
You might be able to flip some switches, ha I do not believe they are connected to anything though. They will be reset anyway on the next update. New buttons will appear on the next update to circumvent your settings. They will sneak this in all the time. They will not tell you about it.
You are fortunate to have unlimited bandwidth. I have a limit, but it is not possible to reach that limit 24/7 at the data rate however. So serving stuff to others that does not benefit me and slows my connection, my productivity, and my potential is preempted.
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On a 'new' laptop or desktop, Windows 7 was no better. Nor was Vista. Nor XP.
First thing you should always do when buying a new computer from a big name manufacturer is reinstall Windows from media made with the official Windows media creation tool. Preinstalled Windows is almost always full of terrible, performance-killing junk. Its not worth trying to remove it. And its been like that for.... 15 years at least?
At least with Windows 10 this process only takes 20-30 minutes or so since the creation tool includes the updates. With Windows 7 and below, you're looking at a dozen update/reboot iterations after an install at minimum. NO WAY you are installing W7 from blank HD to fully updated in 30 minutes.
My Windows 10 Desktop PC takes less than 5 seconds to boot from power button to login prompt. Its usually ready by the time I move my hand from the button to the keyboard. Windows 10 is also MUCH easier on RAM thanks to memory compression- even Non-windows things like Chrome and games will use much less RAM.
There are plenty of reasons to criticize Windows 10. Performance is not one of them.
Yep, this is why I bought a laptop with a Windows 10 PURE installation. Only has manufacturer drivers installed as an extra feature, the rest is pure Windows.
Clean installing is the way to go if your PC has a lot of bloat.
My 7 years old laptop re-boots (logoff, reboot, logon) Windows 10 in 15 seconds. A full reboot does not use the Fast Boot function, so it means everything is loaded from scratch.
Anyone who has a new laptop, Windows could also be indexing files for faster file searches and optimizing a lot of .NET binaries for faster loading times. All this reading, writing and high CPU usage will eventually stop.
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My dad just got himself a new laptop and it had win 10 on it.
Took about 30 minutes to boot the laptop to the desktop. :-//
In 30 min i can put a full install of Win7, god dammit.
Bastard OS loads the CPU, bashes the HDD at 100% and eats 2gigs of RAM while it's at it on idle. :rant:
I don't know a thing about Win10 but i don't think this is normal, this chewing 50% of RAM on idle thing.
Also when viewing YT video full screen the damn taskbar doesn't go away.
If Win10 was made to piss people off then Microsoft did a damn good job at it. :clap:
When will people learn: Windows is using 2 gig, beacuse that is the half of your RAM. The RAM is not doing anything if it is empty, so windows uses it to useful stuff, like speeding up processes and pre-loading stuff. If a program needs memory, windows releases it. Currently, my pc uses 5 gig of ram for actual stuff, 6 as cache, 5 as free.
It is not a bug. It is a feature.
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And whatever you do, don't mention that the "new" laptop is running off a dual core Atom proc, with 4GB, and a 5400RPM spinning drive on an ATA (not SATA) bus.
Other than that, I can't think of ANYTHING that would make it slow. |O |O |O |O |O |O |O
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My win10 laptop boots from cold in about 20 SECONDS, not 20 minutes. And it boots faster than when it had Win7 on it.
I would be surprised if the slow boot time of OP's laptop is Microsoft's fault. Perhaps it's already part of a botnet... More likely would be an over-aggressive virus scanner.
Once upon a time Windows would put hard drives into PIO mode if they were having a lot of issues. If that's still a thing, it would be something else to look for. It made disk performance abysmal.
If it's an option, formatting the disk and installing the OS yourself without any of the OEM bloatware would be a good way to eliminate a ton of possible causes.
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I have to use Windows 10 at work and I primarily run Windows 7 at home. IMHO Win7 is by far the superior product, the difference is like night and day. Win7 feels like a polished commercial product while Win10 feels like 15 year old open source stuff.
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And whatever you do, don't mention that the "new" laptop is running off a dual core Atom proc, with 4GB, and a 5400RPM spinning drive on an ATA (not SATA) bus.
Other than that, I can't think of ANYTHING that would make it slow. |O |O |O |O |O |O |O
5400 RPM? You're being a big generous aren't you? Usually in those low-cost machines they go for a 4200 RPM drive because it saves a few dollars.
But back to the OP's point -- 30 minutes?! Something isn't right there. Are you sure the hard disk isn't faulty? Even my piece of shit Acer computer at work boots into Windows 7/10 in about 30 seconds or so.
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5400 RPM? You're being a big generous aren't you? Usually in those low-cost machines they go for a 4200 RPM drive because it saves a few dollars.
Forgot about those "ultra low rpm" drives. It's been so long since I bought a bottom-of-the-barrel laptop...
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I work on these machines all day, every day. Most of the time the major slow down on the boot is the bloatware included with the system.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, it's no different to when XP, Vista, or 7 came out (we'll ignore ME ;) ).
By all accounts in my opinion, consumer laptops should really be shipped with SSDs now, they're as cheap/cheaper than spinning rust at the trade-off of outright capacity.
Definitely go through and turn off all the privacy-eroding / data-consuming aspects of W10, especially the update-sharing aspect too, particularly if you're running off a limited-GB/mth link.
Disable almost everything in msconfig/taskman (Startup), remove all the bloatware. Things like Norton/Trend/McAfee "complete security" solutions are also terrible culprits for breaking systems at the knees.
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My clean, no bloatware installs of Win 10 boot in seconds, of course all my machines have SSDs. Machines from major vendors that come with all sorts of add on extra programs and demo programs have ALWAYS had startup problems because of all the extra garbage. Clearly, pissing off the customer is a distant second to the money raked in by including all that third party garbage in the build.
I don't see any memory issues, either. I've been using this laptop all day now, multiple applications open, multiple browsers and multiple tabs in each one, plus connected to a VPN and remoted to over a dozen servers (now logged off). Current memory load is sitting at 3.7GB and that's still with Outlook open and multiple Chrome tabs plus some file shares.
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I've seen a lot of people raving about boot time, never really understood all the fuss over that particular metric. I generally boot my machine once in a day at most, usually more like once every few weeks and the rest of the time it just goes to sleep. I don't care if it takes 10 seconds to boot or over a minute, either way it will go from cold & dark to fully up and ready by the time I'm settled in my chair.
Side by side I've observed Win10 does boot very slightly faster than Win7 but the difference is pretty much negligible and both slow down over time.
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I've seen a lot of people raving about boot time, never really understood all the fuss over that particular metric. I generally boot my machine once in a day at most, usually more like once every few weeks and the rest of the time it just goes to sleep. I don't care if it takes 10 seconds to boot or over a minute, either way it will go from cold & dark to fully up and ready by the time I'm settled in my chair.
Side by side I've observed Win10 does boot very slightly faster than Win7 but the difference is pretty much negligible and both slow down over time.
I'm with you on that one. Boot time for me is not important as long as the applications and processes run nicely. I remember back in the 1990's it was a bit of a "race" between my mates who had the "fastest" computer in terms of boot time, but that's about all it ever was. These days I can go grab a glass of water or focus on something else for a minute, it's no big deal.
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I'm with you on that one. Boot time for me is not important as long as the applications and processes run nicely.
(emphasis mine)
That's the crux. The thing is, boot times usually have a moderate causal correlation with the overall system performance, it's like the first date of how the system is going to be, it's symptomatic ( from a tech perspective ). As for the point of shaving 1 or 2 seconds off here or there once the boot times are reasonable, absolutely, it's a case of diminishing returns and rather pointless.
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When comparing two machines of different hardware configurations on the same OS then yes I'd agree that boot time has some amount of correlation to overall system performance. When comparing two different operating systems on the same hardware I would argue that boot time is worthless as a measure of overall performance. A lot of what they do to achieve faster boot time is to delay the loading of anything not essential to display the desktop until after the desktop is visible, then continue loading more stuff in the background. Obviously if you strip out all the nice visual stuff it's going to make some small improvement in performance but is it enough to even matter these days? I could throw out all the furniture and decorations from my house and it would make walking through it faster and more efficient but it wouldn't be a very pleasant place to live.
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I'm with you on that one. Boot time for me is not important as long as the applications and processes run nicely.
(emphasis mine)
That's the crux. The thing is, boot times usually have a moderate causal correlation with the overall system performance, it's like the first date of how the system is going to be, it's symptomatic ( from a tech perspective ). As for the point of shaving 1 or 2 seconds off here or there once the boot times are reasonable, absolutely, it's a case of diminishing returns and rather pointless.
Absolutely. Shaving seconds off booting the OS is pointless for me. It takes just as long to initialise the USB controllers, RAID controller etc... etc... than it does to load Windows 7.
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I'll tell you where boot time matters, when you are building systems. I've become very accustomed to the super fast boot time of virtual machines - it is painful almost to have to reboot a physical server. When you're doing this all day, every day, it is a major factor in productivity. Multiple reboots are required to build a Windows server from scratch, join it to an Active Directory Domain, install various roles and features, get the updates caught up, and install whatever third party applications might be needed.
My main desktop boots in seconds, but rarely needs to, so no, it's not really that big a deal. My laptop, since I am constantly moving around with it, it's nice that I can flip it open and boot up in seconds to do what I need. Some days I'm in one place, boot it up and never reboot until I shut down at the end of the day, but other times I am setting it up and taking it down several times.
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Obviously if you strip out all the nice visual stuff it's going to make some small improvement in performance but is it enough to even matter these days? I could throw out all the furniture and decorations from my house and it would make walking through it faster and more efficient but it wouldn't be a very pleasant place to live.
I'm not talking about stripping out the Windows services/functionality, or services that are on auto-deferred startup, I'm talking about machines that come in loaded to the hilt with things like;
Adobe Reader update checker
Norton update checker
iTunes update checker
Wildtangent Games starter
Spotify launch on startup
iTunes launch on startup
Mozilla (Firefox) update checker
Flash update checker
Java update checker
Mindshare LLC GodKnowsWhat starter
uTorrent start (Oh dear god when I see this I know the system is 99% likely just infected to the hilt)
McAfee security check
ASUS/HP/Toshiba/Acer System check / updater
My Printer checker/updater
Webcam based auto login
....and so on.
Sure you can go wild and go mangle your system using BlackViper service shave downs, but that's not what I'm referring to.
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I agree. The first thing I do is go through and check what's getting loaded at startup - and disable anything that irks me.
My particular pet hate is to have services that are started at boot time that are running 'just in case' you want to run this or that. Some of these I never use and others, once in a blue moon and I get downright ticked off when these are services that will get started by the main program anyway.
I also have an aversion to iWhatever. Hate that "We know how to run your computer." attitude.
Problem is - MS is running down that path too.
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I agree. The first thing I do is go through and check what's getting loaded at startup - and disable anything that irks me.
Special mention goes to Autoruns for letting you quickly/easily eliminate those items that are embedded in the 'scheduled' areas, that's definitely on the list right after cleaning up with msconfig.
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It was a new machine. No Windows ever took 30 minutes to boot. It was in all likleyhood frustration with the bloatware installation and possibly upgrades.
Definitely any unwanted bloatware must be removedif for no other reason than removing the need to ignore it.
If you do a whole run of "yes, yes, accept, yes, yes" through the initial setup on almost any brand-name machine then it most certainly the sanctioned bloatware been having a glorious time unleashing its insatiable appetite for CPU cycles and HDD I/O as it ran amok gluttonising itself until finally rolling over on the verge of exploding and handing [some] control back to the user :)
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High memory usage is not a big issue. Win10 will not free unused memory in order to accelerate program reload. When available memory is not enough, it will automatically clean memory. Therefore there's nothing to worry about. Anyway modern laptops have at least 8GB of RAM, even the cheapest ones have 4GB of RAM.
I seriously disagree with this assertion. High memory usage is an issue. There's not really anything that an OS should be doing to use these absurd amounts of ram. Windows 10 isn't essentially doing anything more than any previous version. It's all bloat and graphical waste of resources, in addition to doing all kinds of background activity, most of which is probably unethical. An OS should use as few system resources as possible so application have as much available as possible.
The consumption of ram by OS's, browsers, and websites drives me bonkers. A recent version of Chrome with a Facebook tab can go over a gig right away. That's just nuts. It's the result of loads of bloat on the browser end and all the script that a modern website is running (doing God knows what). Good web design principles used to be a thing, and most of it has been thrown right out the window in favor of the latest "pretty flashing lights". It's the same thing with OS design.
As far as I'm concerned, we're going backwards. It's not progress when the latest stuff is using more and more resources to do the same tasks.
I remember when you could have 47 tabs in Chrome open, with half of them YouTube videos (Flash, a hog in itself) cued up waiting to be played. Now you even try that and you'll crash your system. :horse: |O
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They have and they found it's a ballsack but it's too hard to fix the castle now. Look at the small files being stored in the MFT on NTFS. This can make it two orders of magnitude slower than pretty much everything else on random small file writes. This fucks over anyone storing lots of source files on disk and movig them in ans out of VCS systems.
The there's the scheduler which implements the "masturbate like a wild monkey" algorithm when the IO load goes up beyond a certain limit, enters hysteresis and the whole house of cards falls down.
(windows dev by day)
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MFT has to be locked per volume to write so all writes are sequential. That means write contention and decrease in throughput. Try checking out 145,000 small files from subversion on windows/NTFS and the same on Linux/ext4. Same kit, mid range SSD (Samsung 850 Pro). 12 minutes on Windows, 1m2s on Linux. The windows machine has had fsutil frigs to increase MFT allocation. Linux machine out of box (CentOS 7).
Arguments are only emotive if you spend all day with Microsoft giving you lemons and you don't want no stinking lemons and want them to stick the lemons back up the arse they came out of.
Oh and the Start Menu on my win10 has just entirely stopped responding to the keyboard.
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My dad just got himself a new laptop and it had win 10 on it.
Took about 30 minutes to boot the laptop to the desktop. :-//
In 30 min i can put a full install of Win7, god dammit.
Bastard OS loads the CPU, bashes the HDD at 100% and eats 2gigs of RAM while it's at it on idle. :rant:
I don't know a thing about Win10 but i don't think this is normal, this chewing 50% of RAM on idle thing.
Also when viewing YT video full screen the damn taskbar doesn't go away.
If Win10 was made to piss people off then Microsoft did a damn good job at it. :clap:
#1 Yes, Windows 10 is utter trash (I am on it now, and was an "Insider" - I tried most of the Betas) -
#2 I would "UPGRADE" that machine to Windows 7 ASAP!
>>> ONCE YOU HAVE INSTALLED WINDOWS 7, INSTALL "Never10" https://www.grc.com/never10.htm (https://www.grc.com/never10.htm) DO NOT SKIP! <<<
#3 You *NEED* to put an SSD in that machine, no ifs or buts, to NOT do so is inexcusable in 2017 - rotary spinning discs are the dark ages!
#3a - You need AT LEAST 8GB of RAM - if it doesn't have at least that, what on EARTH machine is that?!
#4 You neglected to mention the make/model of the machine; it could be a consumer-targeted device pre-bogged-down with a BOAT LOAD of junkware and "trials", "utilities" etc.
#5 The copy of Windows 10 on that machine WILL be activated and linked to the unique machine ID and tied to his Microsoft account (the official term from MS is a "digital entitlement" for Windows 10), so if he DOES stay with Windows 10 (his choice, clearly), it will auto-activate ANY TIME you reinstall Windows 10, fresh, from now on - then take a backup of the WHOLE LAPTOP DRIVE to an external drive, using "Aomei Backupper" or "CloneZilla" (advanced users only)
#6 Use "Double Driver" to take a copy of ALL the drivers on the current Windows 10 install: http://www.boozet.org/dd.htm (http://www.boozet.org/dd.htm) and copy the driver backup to a safe place (USB key) - once you have done so and also have checked and double checked everything (and maybe made a SECOND backup of the ENTIRE DRIVE!) WIPE the drive, remove it, install that SSD (remember that SSD, right?) and then...
#7 Download the appropriate ISO that matches the architecture (64 bit, usually) and variant of Windows 10 which came with the machine.
#8 Using "Rufus" https://rufus.akeo.ie (https://rufus.akeo.ie) and a flash drive (recommend SanDisk), create a bootable Windows 10 installer from the ISO.
#9 Install Windows 10 FRESH from the installer from step #8
#10 Get online and activate it - YOU DO *NOT* NEED "ANTIVIRUS" - Microsoft's own, built-in "Windows Defender" is ALL you need - others are an utter mess and usually a placebo these days, see "Security Now" on http://twit.tv (http://twit.tv) for more information (search around, you'll soon come up with affirmation.)
#11 Restore drivers from the "Double Driver" backup you took in step #6
#12 Listen to "The Tech Guy" and "Security Now" - these folks REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY know what they're on about, more than most "engineers" I've heard over the years, second to NONE! http://twit.tv (http://twit.tv) - Leo Laporte and Steve Gibson, the rest are clueless hopefuls at BEST.
Enjoy a CLEAN install.
PS: I am running Windows 10 64 bit on a 7 YEAR OLD Lenovo ThinkPad R61, here, with 3GB RAM and a cheap SanDisk SSD
- it boots in 20 seconds and runs VERY well, and is only a Core 2 Duo. What saves it is the SSD!
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Oh come on people, let's put away the tinfoil hats.
First off, I really like Win7, but I wouldn't install it on new hardware - drivers are bound to be missing. Win10 isn't that bad - in fact it's a world of improvement over 8.1 (now THAT was the pure shite)...
As for the privacy stuff, getting educated is the best solution to paranoia. If you understand what is happening and how, you can make an informed decision whether to go with it or not. All the telemetry stuff on Win10 can be turned off - I suggest using the "professional" system operator UIs (like Group Policy Editor) for managing your Windows, even if an option is removed from Control Panel, it won't be removed from there.
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You can only turn it all off on enterprise edition...
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You can only turn it all off on enterprise edition...
What cannot be turned off on Professional? (BTW, you can use regedit even in Home...)
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well, my dad is a truck driver and i won't get my hands on the laptop for the next 6 weeks, so it will have to do for now.
And to anyone's who's interested the laptop has an i3-6100U processor.
We could have gone for a i3-7100U but since there's no real support for Win7 we decided not to.
And my dad bought the laptop right before he left so there was no time for messing around with the OS.
I'm already getting a to do list ready for that laptop.
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You can only turn it all off on enterprise edition...
What cannot be turned off on Professional? (BTW, you can use regedit even in Home...)
It's not what can be turned off, it's whether Microsoft respect that you have turned it off or not. For example Telemetry will only stay off in enterprise edition if you use a GPO. It will turn itself back on with Pro etc at the first available opportunity. Unless you fancy spending hours pissing around in scheduled tasks, regedit and then never apply another update to the system again which has limited gains.
Time to walk away for me at least.
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My dad just got himself a new laptop and it had win 10 on it.
Took about 30 minutes to boot the laptop to the desktop. :-//
In 30 min i can put a full install of Win7, god dammit.
Bastard OS loads the CPU, bashes the HDD at 100% and eats 2gigs of RAM while it's at it on idle. :rant:
I don't know a thing about Win10 but i don't think this is normal, this chewing 50% of RAM on idle thing.
Also when viewing YT video full screen the damn taskbar doesn't go away.
If Win10 was made to piss people off then Microsoft did a damn good job at it. :clap:
When will people learn: Windows is using 2 gig, beacuse that is the half of your RAM. The RAM is not doing anything if it is empty, so windows uses it to useful stuff, like speeding up processes and pre-loading stuff. If a program needs memory, windows releases it. Currently, my pc uses 5 gig of ram for actual stuff, 6 as cache, 5 as free.
It is not a bug. It is a feature.
It is a feature that for fucked snakes does NOT work right and is full of bugs.
After disabling superfetch, I can at least do some basic work on that damn machine.
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LOL, you guys are incredible.
Superfetch is a great feature. If your computer with Windows 10 does not work with this feature on then the problem is in your computer itself or in the user.
Windows telemetry reports is a good feature, it helps MS diagnose possible problems, recreate the problem, debug the problem and this way help the user solve the problem for you.
Windows 10 does have it's quirks still, but it is really getting a lot better. All Windows releases starting from old Windows 3.11 has it's quirks.
I would not go back to Windows 8.1 or 7 anymore. Windows 10 is fast and stable for most parts. And as noted before in this thread, if privacy is a concern, you can turn all of those features off.
If Group Policy Editor is too difficult to use, then maybe it would be better to study how Windows works, before making ridiculous claims that Windows 10 is crap. Just because some features are not directly in settings does not mean that you can't turn that feature on or off.
Privacy is not an issue, if you guys study the telemetry reports, you will see that no personal information will be sent, and now I fell like I am starting to repeat myself...if those reports bother you, then turn those features off.
If all this managing is too big of an headache, then maybe hire a professional to manage the computer for you.
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Windows telemetry reports is a good feature, it helps MS diagnose possible problems, recreate the problem, debug the problem and this way help the user solve the problem for you.
Well let's just posit that you're working on something illegal yet ethical (lots and lots of examples depending on nationality), a too high Telemetry setting grabs some evidence off of your hard drive in a crash report, and then Microsoft gets hit by a subpoena to hand over your private information to your government...
In short, you're fucked. And "don't do illegal stuff" is not the right response to this issue.
Yes, the "basic" telemetry setting is pretty much the exact same level of information that Windows Upgrade and Windows Activation has been collecting ever since Windows XP, so I'm not really against that (though I do find "list of installed applications to be at least problematic). However, defaulting to anything higher (well, even designing anything higher in the first place) IS an issue.
Windows 10 does have it's quirks still, but it is really getting a lot better. All Windows releases starting from old Windows 3.11 has it's quirks.
I would not go back to Windows 8.1 or 7 anymore. Windows 10 is fast and stable for most parts. And as noted before in this thread, if privacy is a concern, you can turn all of those features off.
With this I agree, but they could at least try to be less 'in your face', like jam all those fucking app suggestions in the Start Menu up their asses instead. (And yes I know it's easy to turn off, but why does it have to look like a fucking billboard by default.)
Privacy is not an issue, if you guys study the telemetry reports, you will see that no personal information will be sent, and now I fell like I am starting to repeat myself...if those reports bother you, then turn those features off.
IF you set it to Basic then you're right. You have to actively do that though, and it's not what Windows "recommends".
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just another product of microsoft corporation, >:D go figure
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Agree that Windows default Apps from the Store that gets installed are very annoying. Most users need maybe 1 of those, not 10-20.
But it's nothing Enterprise edition of Windows can't solve by default. By default EE does not install any extra apps. If you require that kind of privacy and lack of features by default, you already have EE installed. This also means you are not using Cortana, and your computer is not connected to a Microsoft account, your computer is not connected straight to a internet modem/router but instead to a switch or router that is connected to an AD server and the whole shebang managing every security concern and bit sent and received to/from the internet for you.
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It's simple really...
If you don't like it, then don't use it. Nowhere is it stated that you must use Windows or any Microsoft products.
Every OS today has their PROS and CONS, that is a fact. If you can't overcome the CONS then stop using that OS. If none of the OS satisfy you, then hire someone to write you the OS of your dreams.
Personally I rather use what MS has created and with a little bit of effort, make the experience my own.
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// format c: /quick
// reinstall linux? :-) or make a hakintosh :P
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If you have an SSD, you should not be using Superfetch. And a few other things that are helpful when you still have a slow spinny disk. Dunno about others, but Samsung's Magician will recommend what features you should disable to optimal operation with the SSD.
Must be something to say about building your own computers, my 3 desktop systems at home have not experienced a single one of the Win 10 update issues. One was an upgrade from 7, the other two got a bare install of 8.1 and updated until the free Win 10 offer came up (no software installed under 8.1). But then I of have this HP laptop from work which ALSO has not had a single one of the Win 10 update issues. None of my systems is in any of the fast track update rings, and neither should yours, unless it is a dedicated computer for testing purposes, because in all likelihood you WILL experience problems - getting advanced updates absolutely means you are live beta testing. You have to be some sort of glutton for punishment if you do this with your primary (or only) computer.
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To the paranoid fringe: Don't be so naive to assume Microsoft can't get into your pc and take a walk around ANY NUMBER of ways. This "telemetry" thing is just what the public have been TOLD about - do you seriously think they don't have more methods to get data in or out of your PC? It doesn't matter what you've "switched off" - this is binary code, so unless you're adept at reading 00011000100000000001111 strings then you'll just have to accept the fact that ANY right to total privacy was given up the first second you ever connected ANYTHING to the internet, period - you DO NOT know what's going in or out of your machine, you're not that informed.
Windows 10 is a complete mess, usability and aesthetically speaking, it not a "New OS" at all, folks, it's the same old legacy baggage with a very amateurish slap of paint slapped all over it, nothing more. I do have to laugh HARD when I see people comparing it to macOS, and saying "they're NOT so different now" ... ermmm yeah, if you say so.
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To the paranoid fringe: Don't be so naive to assume Microsoft can't get into your pc and take a walk around ANY NUMBER of ways. This "telemetry" thing is just what the public have been TOLD about - do you seriously think they don't have more methods to get data in or out of your PC? It doesn't matter what you've "switched off" - this is binary code, so unless you're adept at reading 00011000100000000001111 strings then you'll just have to accept the fact that ANY right to total privacy was given up the first second you ever connected ANYTHING to the internet, period - you DO NOT know what's going in or out of your machine, you're not that informed.
There are reverse engineering tools out there that helps security experts to know what exactly Windows does. Also, network package capture is a good way to see what Windows has sent.
Technically, Intel ME can also see your secrets. Accept the facts -- the big brother is watching, and Windows is not the only tool.
Who knows if AMD has similar things in their hardware? Even if not, IPMI in server/WS boards can do similar thing.
The only way to stay completely secret is not to use Internet, or use Internet only after a trusted hardware firewall, or just build your own system completely upon open source hardware and software.
Windows 10 is a complete mess, usability and aesthetically speaking, it not a "New OS" at all, folks, it's the same old legacy baggage with a very amateurish slap of paint slapped all over it, nothing more. I do have to laugh HARD when I see people comparing it to macOS, and saying "they're NOT so different now" ... ermmm yeah, if you say so.
Windows 10 was ugly, but once your get used to it, it's not that bad. Also, there were some controversies during Win10's debut such as the lack of Start menu, but these are not true anymore. Win10 can be configured to behave like Win7 if you wish.
OSX is also a nightmare. At least in Windows you can customize something with GUI tools like Regedit and GPedit. In OSX, many things, even those in Windows Control Panel, has to be changed by directly writing configuration file.
I totally agree with these statements made by blueskull.
People who claim their privacy is at risk and say it's only something happening in Windows, then prove it by testing and creating a full detailed report of what is going on.
If Windows was digging deep into your personal details, then they would have been caught a long time ago being illegal, and the whole Windows would have been shut down forever.
There are thousands of users who collect every single bit Windows changes every second, what comes in and what goes out. These people are used to reading HEX code, and would immediately notice if something was terribly wrong with the OS that put your privacy at risk.
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These same discussions were going on when Windows went from 3.11 to NT3.1, NT3.5, NT3.51, NT4.0, 95, 98, ME, 2000, XP, Vista, 7, 8, 8.1 and now 10. These are the same people complaining every time. And I am certain no matter what MS would do, the same people would still be complaining and never stop.
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It's not so much the stuff I can turn off that bugs me, it's the fact that when I turn it off it "magically" turns itself back on. On my work laptop I have had my pdf default "app" set back to that &^%$#@! excuse for a browser, Edge at least 3 times. I've jumped through the hoops to delete the worthless calc app and replaced it with the one from XP or Vista that actually works, which again has reverted multiple times. Classic Shell has been inexplicably uninstalled twice, absolutely no warning or even a notification telling me it was being removed, just poof, logged in one day and it was gone. WTF? Advertising on the lock screen that I had to disable, promoted apps (advertisements) in the start menu, services like Onedrive that I don't use baked into the OS, the list goes on. With every major update they actively make it harder for me to customize and get rid of the cruft I don't want. I can no longer bypass the useless lock screen entirely (separate from the password entry screen), I can no longer completely kill Cortana without jumping through more hoops, what will come next? I have no doubt future updates will continue to display the same hostility and blatant disregard for my wishes.
Ok sure technically nobody is forcing me to use Windows, except that my employer uses MS Exchange and much of the corporate infrastructure runs Windows. I guess I could quit my job over it but then at home there is much legacy software that only works under Windows, so yeah I'm pretty much forced to use Windows, at least to some degree. I'm spending more and more of my time in Linux but I still need to use Windows too.
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There are thousands of users who collect every single bit Windows changes every second, what comes in and what goes out. These people are used to reading HEX code, and would immediately notice if something was terribly wrong with the OS that put your privacy at risk.
Bollocks. The people who are doing this are working for pen test companies to gain PR or are selling exploits. Also with respect to compiled code, forget it. It's pretty damn difficult to decipher compiled x86-64 binary code kicked out of an optimising compiler.
You literally have ZERO idea what over 5 gigabytes of compiled binaries are doing. Not one clue.
The only thing you can do is watch the wire. And they make that pretty difficult. Talks to multiple hosts, uses it's own DNS, uses pinned certs, PFS and signed binaries. You can't MITM it to find out what is on the wire without using a WinDBG session and reading the process buffers which is monumentally difficult.
Welcome to your snuggly privacy shitfest. There is NOTHING that implies trust. This is a control step, a step towards subscription and advertising supported businesses. There is NOTHING positive for the end user.
Watch it over the next 5 years. I have never been wrong on these matters. In fact I've made a shit ton of money predicting and riding industry trends.
Incidentally I do use Windows 10 for reference. I am just aware of what you gain and what you lose and the trade off is just about bearable at the moment.
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Here's a Registry Patch for both enabling and disabling Cortana. Make sure you reboot your computer after the patch is applied.
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Sure, but give it a few months and "she" will probably magically become enabled again.
I've given up and been beaten into submission. I'll let Win10 do its thing and I just will not use it for anything I don't absolutely have to.
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Add the registry patch to a scheduled task that run each time you reboot or power off your computer and Cortana will never become enabled.
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Doesn't that strike you as a lot of hoops to jump through? That's also only one issue out of many, and there's no reason Microsoft can't wipe my list of scheduled tasks. I'm tired of the uphill battle for control over my own PC.
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Duct tape solutions = bad solutions.
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What is defined in Group Policy wont be deleted or changed unless that feature is marked obsolete.
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It's simple really...
If you don't like it, then don't use it. Nowhere is it stated that you must use Windows or any Microsoft products.
Every OS today has their PROS and CONS, that is a fact. If you can't overcome the CONS then stop using that OS. If none of the OS satisfy you, then hire someone to write you the OS of your dreams.
Personally I rather use what MS has created and with a little bit of effort, make the experience my own.
Today Windows must be considered a critical part of any developed country's infra structure. That is a very good reason to have Microsoft behave themselves a little bit.
Regarding the telemetry you find so fantastic:
Why is it disabled in the educational version of W10, and optional in enterprise? Why are the users of those two versions exempt fom telemetry? Why can't users of the professional version disable it?
It does not help or solve the problem for most businesses that enterprise can disable telemetry, because the vast number of businesses are too small to be alloved to buy enterprise. Microsoft tell people to trust them, but we have no way to know what they collect. We only know that something is sent over, and that is a real problem for all kind of businesses which have to follow stringent regulations regarding information security.
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Windows 10 has some great improvements over 7. The new task manager looks great. There are some great changes under the hood to make it faster than 7. If Windows 10 runs bad on your machine with all "options" turned off, then I'm sure Windows 7 runs crap as well. Get a SSD and a decent amount of RAM. An i3 processor should be quick enough for basic computing and even moderate productivity.
The thing is.. although Windows 10 has some great things, it also has many (unnecessary) features that really throw tech-savvy people off:
- Telemetry programs are opt out instead of opt in. Even though you opted out, some update comes along and it opts in again.
Also you will never have a clue what they send to MS. Have you ever looked up the size of Windows? Cited sources say Windows XP to 10 average around 40-60 million lines of code. Say that it only takes 1000 lines to write an excellent backdoor, that's a minuscule portion. Also when it's completely hidden and buried, away from any interaction, it probably makes it really hard to track down where it resides. Then have it obscured by the pillars and foundations of obfuscation by Windows. Pour some sweet encryption and undocumented protocols over it. Good luck figuring out what is going on.
- Forced reboots for updates. Great, so you lost unsaved work, possibly hours of computing time for a project your PC was working at (like a video render), complete lack of information about what the machine is installing, and all your browser tabs are likely gone. How is this acceptable to anyone? The user should be in control. Microsoft knows this, has had this critique for months, but couldn't be arsed to change it.
- Nagging popups about "Edge is faster than Chrome". Or I also heard something about the Super-bowl event.. even to non-americans. WTF? Piss off. I use my computer for productivity and games, if I want to see ads I will turn on the commercial television.
- The MS Store decides it's smarter than me. I wanted to install the free Forza game on my machine a little while back. While this machine got a DX12 FL11 compatible Quadro GPU with 2GB of VRAM; the store decided against me and I couldn't install it. Why? What artificial limitation is this? Or even more; why can't you recognize my hardware correctly in the first place?
- Aside from a few new features, honestly what has actually changed that makes me think: yes that's worth another 100$ of my hard earned money? Isn't the new UI just the old one but now a dumbed down version with more whitespace in it? Isn't it all a bit too fragmented so far? Aren't some updates like the Store, Cortana and DirectX12 shoved down your throat like it was necessary to add that?
Some of the nice features I just listed can be survived without. We have so with Windows 7 for years. Computers haven't changed fundamentally since then. So pragmatically there is no reason to absolutely run Windows 10, unless you really want to use a specific new feature. It's just that we're forced to eventually by dropping hardware support (like Intel Kaby Lake does) and stop making security patches. I'm sure if Microsoft added the "killer" features to Windows 7 , it would have been received very well. But I guess security patches and geek features is not what sells - after all MS is a commercial company.
It has recently been leaked that a Windows 10 Cloud edition is coming soon. It supposedly doesn't run applications outside the store. All applications you use must come from the store. I suspect they probably want to get the point where they started off with Windows 8 - strip out the desktop experience for consumers, completely dumb down the computing experience, and cash on purchases through the store. If they can get force a decent revenue through the store and then cash a couple ten % of that, sounds like how other companies got big as well.
What benefit does this have to the user? Well they say this cloud version could be cheaper for low end devices. OK great for them, but most passionate people will not buy a crap machine. Why would I buy a version of Windows with these artificial and this time very striking limitations? I have honestly no clue - but given that MS has a monopoly position in the computer market and many people are infected by the 'Stockholm Syndrome', I'm sure they get away with it.
I think it's unfortunate MS is projecting all this commercial noise onto their desktop OS also used by professionals. For folks like us stuff like this is never going to work. I suppose it's not the only option going forward long term - but who knows.. MS was also crazy enough to think Windows 8 was a good idea.
Now this is my way of filling in the blanks. I think people intuitively form an opinion, and then enjoy reading and citing sources that enforces that opinion. Unfortunately it's a human thing to do - even though most of us are paid not to be like that.
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LOL, nice and long rant! love it. A lot of facts and some fiction too.
Either way telemetry gathering is not something new, it exists in Windows 7 too. So please people don't say that one can't switch to 10 because of this privacy concern. The telemetry data only contains either basic, moderate or full data for your particular application or driver, no personal information is sent that can identify you.
Telemetry data today is a MUST. Microsoft has hundreds of millions of software and hardware configuration combinations to go through, and telemetry helps automate identifying the most problematic or common errors, so they can try to fix it as fast as possible.
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If only Microsoft sold multiple versions of their operating systems simultaneously, it would be interesting to see what the market did. I suspect if they did a special platinum edition re-release of Windows 7 with the security updates and just a few of the under the hood improvements from Win10 it would fly off the shelves. Of course they won't do that because their entire roadmap now depends on getting a critical mass of people on Win10 so that they can corral them into their walled garden of subscription services.
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Another former Windows 10 user here... My version was the "Home" edition and it was very limited in what I could disable in terms of updates and telemetry. Not to mention the unauthorized reboots that killed a few overnight rendering jobs along the way.
Either way telemetry gathering is not something new, it exists in Windows 7 too.
I am not entirely sure anybody denies that. However, one can thoroughly disable telemetry on Windows 7 and be sure it stays that way. In my opinion the forced re-enabling of previously disabled features of Windows 10 is what brings suspicions to the table.
So please people don't say that one can't switch to 10 because of this privacy concern. The telemetry data only contains either basic, moderate or full data for your particular application or driver, no personal information is sent that can identify you.
Given that Microsoft is going at lengths to force telemetry options be turned on at every major update, that brings suspicions as to why this information is so valuable when compared to the risk of attracting bad reputation to this new product.
I can say that my current Windows 7 has a very manageable number of opened connections to external sites when compared to the Windows 10 install I had, although nowadays even Windows 7 is not a sea of roses. After reinstalling, I blindly installed Microsoft's subsequent updates which added a lot of telemetry bots to this version as well - reports indicated this trend started to happen after Microsoft released Windows 10, thus I can only re-emphasize what I mentioned above about how valuable this information is to them.
Telemetry data today is a MUST. Microsoft has hundreds of millions of software and hardware configuration combinations to go through, and telemetry helps automate identifying the most problematic or common errors, so they can try to fix it as fast as possible.
Like others, I don't think anybody is denying that updates, telemetry, reboots are an evil per se. Having control over it is what is the biggest pet peeve.
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The fear, misinformation and ignorance in this thread would be a valuable resource from which to write a comedy skit. :palm:
Get off your bums and get on with your lives, use what you want and get as paranoid as you want, no one can deny that even a fool appears wise when he says nothing - silence is golden.
OS discussions are soooo passé, you're wasting your lives discussing this piffle. If you're being spied on YOU WILL NOT know about it, so best you make up your mind to not give in to paranoia, or... well, carry on wasting time whittling on about unknowns.
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Switchedmodepowersupply can you shorten your name, it screws my browser
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Switchedmodepowersupply can you shorten your name, it screws my browser
LOL. Ermmmm, sorry, but that would be ridiculous. Maybe Mr EEVblog will fix the forum to make it so that something so trivial doesn't cause text overflow/wraparound issues (I've seen it too, it's this crappy forum code, not blaming Dave, it's not his design.)
I like my username - won't change it - that won't fix the forum.
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LOL, nice and long rant! love it. A lot of facts and some fiction too.
Either way telemetry gathering is not something new, it exists in Windows 7 too. So please people don't say that one can't switch to 10 because of this privacy concern. The telemetry data only contains either basic, moderate or full data for your particular application or driver, no personal information is sent that can identify you.
Telemetry data today is a MUST. Microsoft has hundreds of millions of software and hardware configuration combinations to go through, and telemetry helps automate identifying the most problematic or common errors, so they can try to fix it as fast as possible.
Instead of :blah: :blah: :blah: you can try to give an intelligent answer to these questions:
Why is it disabled in the educational version of W10, and optional in enterprise? Why are the users of those two versions exempt fom telemetry? Why can't users of the professional version disable it?
Since the data sent to Microsoft are encryped, it's quite strange you know in detail what they contain...
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Switchedmodepowersupply can you shorten your name, it screws my browser
LOL. Ermmmm, sorry, but that would be ridiculous. Maybe Mr EEVblog will fix the forum to make it so that something so trivial doesn't cause text overflow/wraparound issues (I've seen it too, it's this crappy forum code, not blaming Dave, it's not his design.)
I like my username - won't change it - that won't fix the forum.
Dude, your name has no spaces in it... which is why it wont wrap, it is how all text layout tools/programs, even Word deal with such things. You are ridiculous to think that the website should work around your lack of understanding on how text layout works.
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:)
Who else is old enough to remember when if some punk like that showed up everybody be like "Hey, you blew the borders!"
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Switchedmodepowersupply can you shorten your name, it screws my browser
LOL. Ermmmm, sorry, but that would be ridiculous. Maybe Mr EEVblog will fix the forum to make it so that something so trivial doesn't cause text overflow/wraparound issues (I've seen it too, it's this crappy forum code, not blaming Dave, it's not his design.)
I like my username - won't change it - that won't fix the forum.
Dude, your name has no spaces in it... which is why it wont wrap, it is how all text layout tools/programs, even Word deal with such things. You are ridiculous to think that the website should work around your lack of understanding on how text layout works.
Guess who designed the code that made a forum break when a username that DIDN'T exceed a length limit that wasn't set, was displayed? When you can guess who it is, email them and ask them to email Dave and show him how to fix it. Nice try blaming me.
PS: Tell me what else I know or don't know - pick a subject, any subject, and then tell me where my knowledge gaps lie - that'll save me HUGE amounts of time in my life, and I can then go and fill those gaps, and I'll gladly pay you for your services in being able to point out where I am missing information.
PPS: You know where I live, come for coffee, not seen you in ages! ;)
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Your energy is ill-targeted..
http://www.simplemachines.org/contribute/ (http://www.simplemachines.org/contribute/)
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Switchedmodepowersupply can you shorten your name, it screws my browser
LOL. Ermmmm, sorry, but that would be ridiculous. Maybe Mr EEVblog will fix the forum to make it so that something so trivial doesn't cause text overflow/wraparound issues (I've seen it too, it's this crappy forum code, not blaming Dave, it's not his design.)
I like my username - won't change it - that won't fix the forum.
Dude, your name has no spaces in it... which is why it wont wrap, it is how all text layout tools/programs, even Word deal with such things. You are ridiculous to think that the website should work around your lack of understanding on how text layout works.
Guess who designed the code that made a forum break when a username that DIDN'T exceed a length limit that wasn't set, was displayed? When you can guess who it is, email them and ask them to email Dave and show him how to fix it. Nice try blaming me.
PS: Tell me what else I know or don't know - pick a subject, any subject, and then tell me where my knowledge gaps lie - that'll save me HUGE amounts of time in my life, and I can then go and fill those gaps, and I'll gladly pay you for your services in being able to point out where I am missing information.
PPS: You know where I live, come for coffee, not seen you in ages! ;)
- No attempt to blame you there, just pointed out that you are asking too much of the layout capabilities built into the browser, and your choice of username makes it even harder. If you choose to use such a user name expect to have someone come along and complain, or even change it on you (I am tempted btw).
- The theme the forum is using is what allocates space for the username, if it had a short arbitrary length limit, themes that allow for such things would be useless. Most people that use a longer username have the common sense to insert a space.
- You are the first person I have seen on a forum anywhere, do this, and then blame the forum for choosing a handle that is not a handle.
- I have no idea who you are, nor where you live, according to the forum, you are not even in the same country.
Edit: This is off topic, any further discussion regarding this should be over here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/totally-illegible-forum-footer-links-user-interface-fail/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/totally-illegible-forum-footer-links-user-interface-fail/)
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Switchedmodepowersupply can you shorten your name, it screws my browser
LOL. Ermmmm, sorry, but that would be ridiculous. Maybe Mr EEVblog will fix the forum to make it so that something so trivial doesn't cause text overflow/wraparound issues (I've seen it too, it's this crappy forum code, not blaming Dave, it's not his design.)
I like my username - won't change it - that won't fix the forum.
Dude, your name has no spaces in it... which is why it wont wrap, it is how all text layout tools/programs, even Word deal with such things. You are ridiculous to think that the website should work around your lack of understanding on how text layout works.
Guess who designed the code that made a forum break when a username that DIDN'T exceed a length limit that wasn't set, was displayed? When you can guess who it is, email them and ask them to email Dave and show him how to fix it. Nice try blaming me.
PS: Tell me what else I know or don't know - pick a subject, any subject, and then tell me where my knowledge gaps lie - that'll save me HUGE amounts of time in my life, and I can then go and fill those gaps, and I'll gladly pay you for your services in being able to point out where I am missing information.
PPS: You know where I live, come for coffee, not seen you in ages! ;)
- No attempt to blame you there, just pointed out that you are asking too much of the layout capabilities built into the browser, and your choice of username makes it even harder. If you choose to use such a user name expect to have someone come along and complain, or even change it on you (I am tempted btw).
- The theme the forum is using is what allocates space for the username, if it had a short arbitrary length limit, themes that allow for such things would be useless. Most people that use a longer username have the common sense to insert a space.
- You are the first person I have seen on a forum anywhere, do this, and then blame the forum for choosing a handle that is not a handle.
- I have no idea who you are, nor where you live, according to the forum, you are not even in the same country.
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I'm most definitely in the country which I am in, affirmative Captain.
I find it amusing in the utmost to be in a situation where I - the trigger for the bug - am being blamed for the manifestation of said bug, as opposed to the more rational, logical response from programmers, which would be "Oh, that shouldn't happen - let's go and debug it and patch that so it doesn't happen in future"
There appears to be a somewhat gigantic case of passing the buck, here. Imagine if Apple blamed people who find bugs in their code which caused their products to go haywire! Do you know what Apple do when people find bugs, sometimes, they PATCH THEM and PAY the discoverer of said bug, not shout them down! LOL!
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I'm most definitely in the country which I am in, affirmative Captain.
Looking at your post history this seems to be your process, looks like you are an outright troll trying to cause problems... this latest couple of posts just confirms this.
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I'm most definitely in the country which I am in, affirmative Captain.
Looking at your post history this seems to be your process, looks like you are an outright troll trying to cause problems... this latest couple of posts just confirms this.
How do you know this?
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I'm most definitely in the country which I am in, affirmative Captain.
Looking at your post history this seems to be your process, looks like you are an outright troll trying to cause problems... this latest couple of posts just confirms this.
How do you know this?
- Anyone can view posts made by a particular user across the forum.
- In return for the generous offer of the wealth of information that Dave provides on this forum I do my best to provide him with server management, monitoring and support, including development/fixes/mods where needed. As such I am able to fix the issues that you have raised, but since doing so would break compatibility with SMF upgrades, this issue should be raised with SMF, not (ab)used and complained about on a completely unrelated forum.
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How do you know this?
Anyone who's done any modding or even admin gives every new user a certain amount of rope. A hint. You don't watch the user, you watch the rope.
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I'm most definitely in the country which I am in, affirmative Captain.
Looking at your post history this seems to be your process, looks like you are an outright troll trying to cause problems... this latest couple of posts just confirms this.
Okay Captain, sorry about that, I hope you recover from the stress I've caused you, sorry again.
How do you know this?
- Anyone can view posts made by a particular user across the forum.
- In return for the generous offer of the wealth of information that Dave provides on this forum I do my best to provide him with server management, monitoring and support, including development/fixes/mods where needed. As such I am able to fix the issues that you have raised, but since doing so would break compatibility with SMF upgrades, this issue should be raised with SMF, not (ab)used and complained about on a completely unrelated forum.