Author Topic: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.  (Read 11574 times)

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2021, 01:31:33 am »
Why shouldn't you pay to benefit from their technology?
1) Because you're paying the people you buy the Bluetooth module or chipset from. The purchase of that should convey all licensing needed to sell the product containing it.
2) Is it reasonable to be expected to pay exactly the same fee to ship ten products as ten million ?
In general you have to check what the license of the module / chip says regarding licensing c.q. whether the license fee for using the technology has been paid or not. It could be the module / chipset passed testing but the fees to use the technology in a product has not. For chips this is probably not the case where it comes to Bluetooth (and similar protocols) because the external RF components are part of the test requirements.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 01:33:11 am by nctnico »
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2021, 01:39:17 am »
2) Is it reasonable to be expected to pay exactly the same fee to ship ten products as ten million ?

Yes, because that's the license model - unlimited royalty-free. But you can choose a royalty-based license if you wish (e.g., ANT+). You have the choice. Both options are "reasonable". If you don't like what's on offer, find a different solution.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2021, 04:15:01 am »
None of this is new. The Bluetooth people will threaten to sue you unless you pay their exorbitance fees. I know - it happened in a company I worked with. They use BOTs to surf the web to find products that use the Bluetooth symbol or word.

The problem with Bluetooth is even if you use a certified Bluetooth module in your product - bad luck, you have to pay - for each and every product variant.

These greed mongers have made it very punitive for small startups. They simply do not care. They want their money. "Truth, Justice and the American Way", each of which is a farce.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2021, 04:36:23 am »
And of course they have a practical monopoly on short range radio interfaces, seeing as every laptop, phone, and tablet out there has Bluetooth..
 

Offline Day101Topic starter

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2021, 10:10:54 am »
None of this is new. The Bluetooth people will threaten to sue you unless you pay their exorbitance fees. I know - it happened in a company I worked with. They use BOTs to surf the web to find products that use the Bluetooth symbol or word.

Do you know if you had to pay for using the Trademark or for using the technology? Was a lawyer consulted?


Quote
The problem with Bluetooth is even if you use a certified Bluetooth module in your product - bad luck, you have to pay - for each and every product variant.


Not if it's the same Bluetooth part I think.
https://www.bluetooth.com/develop-with-bluetooth/qualification-listing/
"It may be possible to complete product qualification by adding the product as a new model to one of your existing qualifications."

 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2021, 11:05:41 am »
If you are complaining about $8k for BT, you should know that a minimal FCC or CE/RED intentional irradiator certification will cost much more - and yes, these will be required to your whole product. Such things can be cost minimized if you use a pre-certified protocol stack or module. Nothing really new at the horizon there - this is part of what is called NRE, or non-recurring engineering fees of a product.

I would follow the advice of others and consult with a lawyer or a certification company to be sure of this. Also some silicon vendors provide some guides to navigate all this. One example for BLE:

https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/swra601

To play on the big leagues you need big money. This is true for many things. I come from an era where BT/WLAN/USB certification was so intricate that nobody would even answer the phone if you didn't commit to at least 100k units. Nowadays you can buy modules and dev kits on the retail market to make your projects.
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Offline Day101Topic starter

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2021, 01:10:01 pm »
I think I might just need EMC testing.

For the first version I'm only trying to launch in the USA. So there's no RED or CE.
Online sales only so I don't need UL for large stores (Walmart etc.)

My devices both use pre-certified FCC modules so I think I might just need to do some paperwork to register with FCC, show the right label on the product.

There's no power supply. One device has a coin cell and the other is either 3xAA battery powered or USB  (<100mA). So I think it's not a fire risk. I've added protection (2 poly fuses) on my power lines which I think might be sufficient. I will get this checked.

If I need more testing then I will get it (I have money) but I am definitely avoiding unnecessary costs especially if it can be better spent on advertising (or my kids)

I thought Bluetooth might be $2500, and thought it might only apply to use their Trademarks (which I wouldn't show). But now that I've realise it might be $8000 I want avoid it if at all possible. And that includes ditching Bluetooth for Version1 (if the Nordic Shockburst protocol is also ok with FCC.)

 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2021, 01:23:14 pm »
I wonder what it would be considered if you use a module that can use Bluetooth or some proprietary protocol and ship the devices with firmware that only enables the proprietary protocol. Then have an "unofficial community developed" firmware that also enables Bluetooth. (I recall that the popular NRF protocol is close enough to BLE that with a bit of hacking, you can get a NRF module to send packets that a BLE device could receive.)
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2021, 02:09:16 am »
If you are complaining about $8k for BT, you should know that a minimal FCC or CE/RED intentional irradiator certification will cost much more - and yes, these will be required to your whole product. Such things can be cost minimized if you use a pre-certified protocol stack or module...

True, but there is more to it. It depends on the application. You can use a re-certified BLE module, but you need special code for the FCC SAR testing to continuously transmit carriers. Also, for the CE/RED testing, if you are using more than one transmitter or receiver, you have to do co-located radio testing, which can be very expensive. The EU also states that if you change you enclosure, you have to repeat the testing. You can use off-the-shelf modules (including antenna), but as soon as you use it in another enclosure, you have to do a lot of testing.

If you use a BLE module with an external antenna, make sure to put a 0 zero ohm resistor or a pi network between the module and the antenna, because the test house will need direct access to the module. Also make sure you can send commands to the module either using bridging code in the MPU or use a UART or I2C interface. R & D people often forget this and they need a re-spin to make the product testable for compliance.

For some reason the meddling EU wants to make sure your product works well on its own, even with RF reception. The FCC is a lot more sensible. They don't care about how well your product works, as long is it does not cause interference and is safe.

It is utter stupidity, almost to a criminal level, that a $5 AM radio receiver imported into the EU has to have $50k to $100k worth of testing just for it to be approved for sale in the EU. This wipes out all small players/startups who want to get their product into the EU.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2021, 05:21:41 am »
I recall that the popular NRF protocol is close enough to BLE that with a bit of hacking, you can get a NRF module to send packets that a BLE device could receive.
https://dmitry.gr/?r=05.Projects&proj=11.%20Bluetooth%20LE%20fakery

...and of course a suitable SDR should be able to do it too.
 

Offline Neilm

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2021, 07:32:15 pm »

The problem with Bluetooth is even if you use a certified Bluetooth module in your product - bad luck, you have to pay - for each and every product variant.


As I understand it, you only have to pay if you change modules. If you use the same (certified) module in multiple products you just register the new product against the module - don't have to pay a fee. If you put a new module in then you have to pay again.
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Offline RawCode

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2021, 12:06:58 pm »
This wipes out all small players/startups who want to get their product into the EU.

I totally agree.
I was thinking (and dreaming) about an audio product that uses USB connection, Bluetooth and Wi-Fi, for an hypothetical startup. But now that I'm reading this thread, I'm quite demoralised.
How am I supposed to develop, or even sell, a product if I have to pay all the regulatory and licencing stuff? How am I supposed to pay all that money if I have a "student" budget?

I'm not saying that regulatory stuff and licensing is stupid, but if I use a pre-built module, paying an extra to have a "pre-certified/licensed" model, why in the world should I perform another certification and licensing process? What is the point of having a "pre-certified/licensed" module?

I'm seriously giving up about the idea of having a small company/startup of audio products if there is a wall of several thousand of euros to overcome.
I wonder if all the products that you can find on amazon typing "bluetooth" or "wifi" have a proper certification/licensing.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2021, 03:50:16 pm »
[...]
How am I supposed to develop, or even sell, a product if I have to pay all the regulatory and licencing stuff? How am I supposed to pay all that money if I have a "student" budget?
[...]

You're not, is the answer...  you are supposed to get a nice job at a big corporation and be a productive employee, take home a good pay, live a good life, and retire with a stable pension savings fund.
 

Online langwadt

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2021, 04:18:16 pm »
[...]
How am I supposed to develop, or even sell, a product if I have to pay all the regulatory and licencing stuff? How am I supposed to pay all that money if I have a "student" budget?
[...]

You're not, is the answer...  you are supposed to get a nice job at a big corporation and be a productive employee, take home a good pay, live a good life, and retire with a stable pension savings fund.


tbf if an $8000 fee is what prevents you from making a startup you probably shouldn't ......

 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2021, 04:27:45 pm »
The older one gets, the more one realizes that there is a very long line of people that want a "cut" of whatever you do...   like civilized versions of Mafia protection rackets!  :D
 

Offline bingo600

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2021, 04:47:40 pm »
 
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Offline RawCode

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2021, 05:19:30 pm »
[...]
How am I supposed to develop, or even sell, a product if I have to pay all the regulatory and licencing stuff? How am I supposed to pay all that money if I have a "student" budget?
[...]

You're not, is the answer...  you are supposed to get a nice job at a big corporation and be a productive employee, take home a good pay, live a good life, and retire with a stable pension savings fund.


tbf if an $8000 fee is what prevents you from making a startup you probably shouldn't ......



Well, you're right.
But if you consider that you have a 50/100 k€ wall to overcome, between measurements, certifications, licensing and bureaucratic stuff, without even selling a unit of product, well that's a big wall.
As a small player/hypothetical start-up, it's just demoralising.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2021, 06:00:38 pm »
[...]
How am I supposed to develop, or even sell, a product if I have to pay all the regulatory and licencing stuff? How am I supposed to pay all that money if I have a "student" budget?
[...]

You're not, is the answer...  you are supposed to get a nice job at a big corporation and be a productive employee, take home a good pay, live a good life, and retire with a stable pension savings fund.


tbf if an $8000 fee is what prevents you from making a startup you probably shouldn't ......



Well, you're right.
But if you consider that you have a 50/100 k€ wall to overcome, between measurements, certifications, licensing and bureaucratic stuff, without even selling a unit of product, well that's a big wall.
As a small player/hypothetical start-up, it's just demoralising.

Perhaps "sobering" is a better word? All start-ups need money and it usually hurts because it comes from your bank account and not an employer's.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2021, 06:14:43 pm »
Our "free" markets actually have considerable barriers to entry for products where the "big players" are involved. 

If you want to develop and market a new product on a small scale where there  is significant risk that the product doesn't "take off",  it is much better to stay away from licensed technologies altogether.  You can do a lot with open standards like Wi-Fi, for example, without paying anything to anyone (as long as you use an approved module obviously).   You can always add the expensive stuff later if things take off.

Use your creativity to work around / avoid the problems.  That's what makes you an entrepeneur!
 

Offline Day101Topic starter

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2021, 06:22:53 pm »
I suppose it depends on the design but for me it's not 50-100K at all.

There's no FCC testing, the modules are pre-certified. No need for UL testing, Sell direct via Amazon, shopify, ebay etc (not walmart etc). It's low power so there's no fire risk. Don't sell to Europe or rest of the world for v1. No power supply, just a $2 USB cable. EMC testing is cheap (https://www.sunfiretesting.com/)

Right now I'm expecting to hack out Bluetooth and use Shockburst instead. ~1 weeks effort I reckon. And if I get time (LOL) then I'll send data to smartphone via NFC.

I also need to file provisional patents (UK is best) this allows me 18 months to file for the rest of the world.
Aside from lost earning and the cost of making the prototypes I'm looking at less than $10K including non-refundable engineering fees for ABS moulds etc.




 
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2021, 06:33:31 pm »
I suppose it depends on the design but for me it's not 50-100K at all.

There's no FCC testing, the modules are pre-certified. No need for UL testing, Sell direct via Amazon, shopify, ebay etc (not walmart etc). It's low power so there's no fire risk. Don't sell to Europe or rest of the world for v1. No power supply, just a $2 USB cable. EMC testing is cheap (https://www.sunfiretesting.com/)

Right now I'm expecting to hack out Bluetooth and use Shockburst instead. ~1 weeks effort I reckon. And if I get time (LOL) then I'll send data to smartphone via NFC.

I also need to file provisional patents (UK is best) this allows me 18 months to file for the rest of the world.
Aside from lost earning and the cost of making the prototypes I'm looking at less than $10K including non-refundable engineering fees for ABS moulds etc.

You need to understand the patent aspect better.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/764953/ipo-foi-2018-564-provisional-patents.pdf

Quote
Strictly speaking "provisional patents" do not exist in the UK. They are offered in other jurisdictions, such as the US, where they can be filed in order to establish an early filing date but never mature into a regular patent application. The equivalent way to do this in the UK is to file a normal patent application but to not progress that application (e.g. by choosing to not request a search, or to not request substantive examination) and then, within 12 months, to file a further application which claims priority from the earlier application. The initial application will still need to include a complete disclosure of the invention (in sufficient detail to enable a skilled person in the relevant field of technology to put the invention into effect) and all the relevant information to support any later application.

This is very different than a US provisional patent application.

I assume you are also alluding to the PCT process for rest of world. It's expensive. You need to pick one or two countries. If you choose the EU, you still have to pay for each member state you want protection in. Then there's the annual maintenance fee which for EU countries is about USD2,300 per country per year.

On top of that, you need to pay a knowledgeable patent attorney to make sure you do it right.

 

Offline Day101Topic starter

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2021, 06:48:03 pm »
Yes, I have a patent advisor in the UK.
Filing for the rest of the world requires MONEY. which I can only get by selling some units. And defending infringements is much much more expensive again.

If the sales in the US justify the costs then I will get the lawyers to file in each jurisdiction. But a UK provisional patent gives 18 months and is a fraction of the cost of US etc.

 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2021, 06:52:20 pm »
US fees can be substantially reduced if you quality as a "microentity". My fees were 25% of the standard ones. e.g., filing fee was $80.

https://www.uspto.gov/learning-and-resources/fees-and-payment/uspto-fee-schedule#Patent%20Fees
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 06:53:58 pm by JohnnyMalaria »
 
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Online langwadt

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2021, 09:11:47 pm »
I suppose it depends on the design but for me it's not 50-100K at all.

There's no FCC testing, the modules are pre-certified. No need for UL testing, Sell direct via Amazon, shopify, ebay etc (not walmart etc). It's low power so there's no fire risk. Don't sell to Europe or rest of the world for v1. No power supply, just a $2 USB cable. EMC testing is cheap (https://www.sunfiretesting.com/)

so trying to stay under the radar and hope no one complains, that's one way of doing it
 

Offline Day101Topic starter

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Re: Bluetooth device registration is $8000.
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2021, 09:26:11 pm »
Am I flying under a radar? Have I missed something? I’m not sure what you’re saying
 


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