Author Topic: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows [door plugs] stayed in!  (Read 97605 times)

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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #150 on: January 12, 2024, 04:01:26 am »
Boeing's been missing or has loose fasteners on many occasions. Too many occasions.
Surely a multi-million dollar paycheque: "VP of Total Quality for Boeing Commercial Airplanes, chair of the Boeing Quality Operations Council and a member of the company’s Executive Council." Executive Carole Murray "... previously was senior director of Quality for the 787 Program".
We could promote her to CEO, add a few committees, that would fix everything  :palm:

Top heavy, big bucks executives are like parasites that drain all the cash and blood out of the lower workers.

It reminds me of the old "pop bottle in the door" stunt union workers in Detroit were pulling. My dad his '75 or '76 Ford F150 had that rattle and here I thought somebody just forgot their soda bottle there. Snopes says it's a myth (Cadillac door) but it really was happening back in the day.

If this is a pushback by disgruntled employees, and it's looking like that because a bolt is not terribly difficult to install, it's what you do all day... Boeing has pissed off the worker bees.
Soviet Union was like this too I thought, quality problems and nobody fixing it because those in charge make all the money, flog workers and do little else.

Blaming it on executive pay is as lazy as some of the management pronouncements. 

Now I agree that execs are paid way too much.  There is no way that I can believe that one of those million dollar earners is bringing that much more value to the company than someone who makes a mere 200k.  But there are 145,000 employees at Boeing.  Lets say that there are 100 of these million dollar babies.  Firing them all and spreading their salary over the workforce would result in an annual raise of less than $700.   Less than that if they were replaced by lower paid executives.   The figures on line say the lowest payed employee makes more than $50,000 a year.  If $700 for someone making $50k+ is the difference between doing a good job and doing schlock work there is at least as much wrong with the workforce as the management.

Executive pay may be an emotional issue, feeding feelings of unfairness, but saying those salaries are "draining the lifeblood" is an extravagant overstatement. 
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #151 on: January 12, 2024, 05:41:04 am »
Yeah you're right you could only get maybe 250 employees if you redirected the exec bonuses.
CEO David Calhoun compensation is 154:1 of median employee so his $22.5M comp. is worth around 154 employees. He must have a very big head.
Compared to the number of layoffs, which are in the thousands before the pandemic and after.

Boeing slashed more than 12,000 jobs May 2020:
“This is a significant amount of knowledge and skill leaving the Boeing Company,” said Bill Dugovich, spokesman for the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA)."
Boeing job cuts will fall heavily on engineers and machinists
Boeing to cut nearly 10,000 jobs in Washington, more than 12,000 overall
 

Offline HuronKing

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #152 on: January 12, 2024, 04:00:30 pm »
Executive pay may be an emotional issue, feeding feelings of unfairness, but saying those salaries are "draining the lifeblood" is an extravagant overstatement.

The Duke of Wellington said of Napoleon that he was worth 40,000 men on the battlefield.

I agree that a highly paid CEO can indeed be worth many more times the salary of an average median employee if that CEO brings strong leadership, corporate direction, and personality to the role.

Another good example is the way both Michael Eisner and later Bob Iger in turn developed Disney from a failing company into the largest entertainment company in the world.

There may be a case to be made that the problem isn't inherently highly paid execs at Boeing - but that they aren't fostering a culture of transparency, safety, and quality down the chain. In which case ANY CEO who is paid more than $1 is overpaid... because that CEO needs to be fired.
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #153 on: January 12, 2024, 04:21:18 pm »
Yes - I think that's very true.  Fundamentally, CEOs serve one group and that's the shareholders/investors in a company.  They attract high salaries because there's a lot of competition for the best 'talent' in the executive world.  You could argue they are not worth the millions spent on them - as doubling their pay doesn't double their productivity - and that may well be correct, but in a competitive marketplace, not having a top CEO could lead a company to fall behind the competition and in the worst case could lead to the company failing.  Look at the failure of Intel with respect to AMD...  Dr. Lisa Su deserves every penny thrown at her, she clearly understands the marketplace, product and customer very very well and has led her team to great success.  On the other hand, Elon Musk... He's done well with Tesla (despite recent efforts) but clearly is not the right person to lead Twitter.
 

Offline HuronKing

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #154 on: January 12, 2024, 05:41:53 pm »
On the other hand, Elon Musk... He's done well with Tesla (despite recent efforts) but clearly is not the right person to lead Twitter.

This is very true. Not all CEOs are cut out to lead all kinds of companies.

Another important note about CEO compensation is that while some collect annual salaries in the millions, others actually collect very little in cash compensation.

Musk doesn't collect a salary. His net worth is entirely tied up in his stock options:
https://www.fastcompany.com/90960056/warren-buffett-elon-musks-salaries-net-worth-misleading#:~:text=His%20total%202022%20pay%20was,was%20a%20big%20fat%20zero.

 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #155 on: January 12, 2024, 07:29:25 pm »
A good engineer considers a multitude of factors, cost and risk are hopefully among them.

I'd hope a CEO does the same. They are beholding to shareholders and as such should be held  responsible for
destroying a company.
 

Offline Andy Chee

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #156 on: January 12, 2024, 07:47:33 pm »
Not all leaders like what they hear from their underlings.  In which case, the underlings are sacked, and replaced with "yes" men.
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #157 on: January 12, 2024, 08:25:09 pm »
One degree below the yes-men are the nodders, in the next row back, who wait for the yesses before nodding in agreement.
 
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Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #158 on: January 12, 2024, 08:41:23 pm »
Whistle-blower said the government needs to inspect and verify like in the past.

 

Offline tooki

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #159 on: January 12, 2024, 08:54:33 pm »
I needed to make some measurements at work, went to get a multimeter and found they are all gone. QC dept. has sent them out for calibration per ISO 9000, out of country "they'll be back in 10 days".
Fine, I'll just bring in my own test equipment in "uh no you can't do that, we don't have insurance coverage for that"  :palm:

So I can't move forward on the project but have to appease the deity known as the Project Schedule/Gantt chart. Imagine- you can't make voltage measurements for 10 days.
It's how abusive corporations can be- commanding things to be running at full speed, despite the flat tires we give you, and if you complain you go on the blacklist. We only want unicorns and rainbows on the team.
At least you had a very clear scapegoat: the moron that sent all your meters out for calibration at the same time instead of breaking it up into two batches. Then you tell your boss that if they want any semblance of being on time, that it’ll be cheaper to overnight a new, factory-calibrated meter from the manufacturer than to put production on hold.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #160 on: January 13, 2024, 02:03:48 am »
Executive pay may be an emotional issue, feeding feelings of unfairness, but saying those salaries are "draining the lifeblood" is an extravagant overstatement.

The Duke of Wellington said of Napoleon that he was worth 40,000 men on the battlefield.

I agree that a highly paid CEO can indeed be worth many more times the salary of an average median employee if that CEO brings strong leadership, corporate direction, and personality to the role.

Another good example is the way both Michael Eisner and later Bob Iger in turn developed Disney from a failing company into the largest entertainment company in the world.

There may be a case to be made that the problem isn't inherently highly paid execs at Boeing - but that they aren't fostering a culture of transparency, safety, and quality down the chain. In which case ANY CEO who is paid more than $1 is overpaid... because that CEO needs to be fired.

Some CEOs areas impactful as Napoleon, and they deserve every cent of whatever salary they re paid.  But the executive compensation committees would have us believe that there are literally thousands or even tens of thousands of these unicorns in the western world.  I believe this is completely wrong.

But I also believe that the reason this situation has developed is that it isn't grievously harmful to the companies involved.  The selective forces countering this trend are weak.
 
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Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #161 on: January 13, 2024, 02:35:52 am »
Oversight is the only realistic solution. If it can't be a real inspector every time photos and signatures to
make investigations easier. The FAA is probably stripped of staff technically capable of doing all aspects
but that changes nothing. 
 

Offline Homer J Simpson

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #162 on: January 14, 2024, 12:11:36 am »
Boeing 737 -9 Plug Doors and Spirit Aerospace Lawsuit

 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #163 on: January 14, 2024, 01:49:13 am »
That's a pretty stunning video.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #164 on: January 14, 2024, 03:02:00 am »
Boing! part 2

 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #165 on: January 14, 2024, 04:34:03 am »
Boeing 737 -9 Plug Doors and Spirit Aerospace Lawsuit



By the standards of the opening quote, activities  like space flight, hang gliding, parachuting, deep sea diving and F1 racing are also not inherently dangerous.  In fact I am not sure I can think of anything that is inherently dangerous by that standard.  That doesn't correlate well with a more common notion is that activities which are unforgiving of mistakes are dangerous.
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #166 on: January 14, 2024, 04:37:23 pm »
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #167 on: January 15, 2024, 02:29:06 am »
Executive pay may be an emotional issue, feeding feelings of unfairness, but saying those salaries are "draining the lifeblood" is an extravagant overstatement.

The Duke of Wellington said of Napoleon that he was worth 40,000 men on the battlefield.

I agree that a highly paid CEO can indeed be worth many more times the salary of an average median employee if that CEO brings strong leadership, corporate direction, and personality to the role.

Another good example is the way both Michael Eisner and later Bob Iger in turn developed Disney from a failing company into the largest entertainment company in the world.

There may be a case to be made that the problem isn't inherently highly paid execs at Boeing - but that they aren't fostering a culture of transparency, safety, and quality down the chain. In which case ANY CEO who is paid more than $1 is overpaid... because that CEO needs to be fired.

what does one royalty say to  the other? WE ARE IMPORTANT AND DESERVE MONEY


the duke talking about a king lol. its hard to take that seriously, it sounds kind of like 'please don't cut my salary'.

could there be a revolution to get rid of high paying CEO like getting rid of kings and queens that don't really do much good for society? If you look to history there is a clear trend.................... could corporate make it to the year 1765? it could end like the dark ages
« Last Edit: January 15, 2024, 02:33:50 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #168 on: January 15, 2024, 02:44:20 am »
Maybe. Right now, the revolution seems to be large companies and rich CEOs having more influence on politics than elected people, and being proud of it, so. The next revolution may take a while before it happens.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #169 on: January 16, 2024, 11:11:29 pm »
Ryanair to send engineers to oversee Boeing quality control  :o

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67994140

I wonder if they'll land at the right airport this time, or indeed, a passenger airport.   Funny story...
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #170 on: January 16, 2024, 11:32:56 pm »
Ryanair to send engineers to oversee Boeing quality control  :o

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67994140

I wonder if they'll land at the right airport this time, or indeed, a passenger airport.   Funny story...

Landing at the wrong airport is more common than you might think, e.g. https://simpleflying.com/pan-am-707-raf-northolt/ https://simpleflying.com/flight-landing-wrong-airport-brief-history/

I've seen many aircraft almost land at Aston Down when they were aiming at Kemble. The most egregious examples merit an AAIB investigation with subsequent wide publicity in the GA community.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #171 on: January 16, 2024, 11:38:11 pm »
Landing at the wrong airport is more common than you might think, e.g. https://simpleflying.com/pan-am-707-raf-northolt/ https://simpleflying.com/flight-landing-wrong-airport-brief-history/

I've seen many aircraft almost land at Aston Down when they were aiming at Kemble. The most egregious examples merit an AAIB investigation with subsequent wide publicity in the GA community.

Yeah, I dig at Ryanair a bit, but they've never had a single fatality flight, and only a handful of incident flights in their time (none really due to plane or pilot error), so they must be doing something right given they fly probably hundreds of times a day.  I've heard they're a demanding airline to work for but pay their pilots reasonably well,  not big airline money but not pennies either.

Having only flown with them once I found it quite amusing to be offered duty free and lotto tickets mid flight.  I kinda feel bad for the cabin staff having to flog that stuff.  Seats were a bit tight but what do you expect for £50 return to Barcelona! 
 

Offline MT

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #172 on: January 17, 2024, 07:50:06 pm »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #173 on: January 17, 2024, 10:30:55 pm »
Nikki has been a bad girl.
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #174 on: January 18, 2024, 08:10:13 am »
I didn't quite understand how the door plug was held, I do now and it's a very clever design. Also now I understand why the door plug didn't fall in previous flight at a higher altitude: the higher the altitude the better the door plug self-locks into the frame.

The reason is that the stop pins on the door itself align with the stop pads on the frame, but in reverse, ie the stop pads (frame) are behind the stop pins (door) if one looks at the door plug from inside. See attached pics. So as pressure outside decreases the door force actually sits on the frame more and more, kind of self locking it in place.



 


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