Author Topic: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows [door plugs] stayed in!  (Read 98329 times)

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Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #200 on: January 24, 2024, 11:22:50 pm »
Crazy that a plug door did not require an inspection unless removed. How could that happen it uses fasteners?
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #201 on: January 25, 2024, 12:15:46 am »
A going theory is there were problems with missing rivets on the plug door. An 'unplanned removal' is a complex procedure and paperwork, QA inspection so they instead opted for just opening the door (removal of locking bolts) and since there is no QA after that, the missing bolts were not caught.

Whistle blower page 1 and page 2 tells us more how it is in the factory and pretty much terrible "... in the past 365 calendar days recorded 392 nonconforming findings on 737 mid fuselage door installations".

Is this self-sabotage? :-BROKE

Destroying Boeing is entirely beneficial to the enemies of America. If you wanted to ruin a military supplier, how would you do it?
I have seen corporate espionage where an executive team is brought in with the hidden mandate to destroy the company. Usually a pump'n'dump on the stock, as well as "borrow borrow borrow" money go in max. debt, trim/layoff and outsource as much as possible, and then the climax -  short sell, scuttle the ship. Reap massive rewards.

I'm not believing it's a quality problem anymore.
 
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Online Stray Electron

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #202 on: January 25, 2024, 01:23:45 am »
A going theory is there were problems with missing rivets on the plug door. An 'unplanned removal' is a complex procedure and paperwork, QA inspection so they instead opted for just opening the door (removal of locking bolts) and since there is no QA after that, the missing bolts were not caught.

Whistle blower page 1 and page 2 tells us more how it is in the factory and pretty much terrible "... in the past 365 calendar days recorded 392 nonconforming findings on 737 mid fuselage door installations".

Is this self-sabotage? :-BROKE

Destroying Boeing is entirely beneficial to the enemies of America. If you wanted to ruin a military supplier, how would you do it?
I have seen corporate espionage where an executive team is brought in with the hidden mandate to destroy the company. Usually a pump'n'dump on the stock, as well as "borrow borrow borrow" money go in max. debt, trim/layoff and outsource as much as possible, and then the climax -  short sell, scuttle the ship. Reap massive rewards.

I'm not believing it's a quality problem anymore.

  So who are you trying to pin this on?    Bombardier?
 

Offline MT

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #203 on: January 25, 2024, 04:05:13 am »
This will fill the Boing bucket even more "despite" it's most likely a maintenance issue.

 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #204 on: January 25, 2024, 04:12:05 am »
Boeing is a military contractor, it sounds so sloppy. To be fair the FCC share blame needs to have staff in both facilities taking
pictures, inspections.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #205 on: January 25, 2024, 04:28:10 am »
A going theory is there were problems with missing rivets on the plug door. An 'unplanned removal' is a complex procedure and paperwork, QA inspection so they instead opted for just opening the door (removal of locking bolts) and since there is no QA after that, the missing bolts were not caught.

Whistle blower page 1 and page 2 tells us more how it is in the factory and pretty much terrible "... in the past 365 calendar days recorded 392 nonconforming findings on 737 mid fuselage door installations".

Is this self-sabotage? :-BROKE

Destroying Boeing is entirely beneficial to the enemies of America. If you wanted to ruin a military supplier, how would you do it?
I have seen corporate espionage where an executive team is brought in with the hidden mandate to destroy the company. Usually a pump'n'dump on the stock, as well as "borrow borrow borrow" money go in max. debt, trim/layoff and outsource as much as possible, and then the climax -  short sell, scuttle the ship. Reap massive rewards.

I'm not believing it's a quality problem anymore.

  So who are you trying to pin this on?    Bombardier?

The list of potential suspects is long.  While I find it unlikely that it is a corporate source,  you can rattle off a long list of states with a strong enmity for the US, and quite a number on the list are potentially capable of pulling such an act off.  A fair number of those have a history of such actions.  I certainly have no data on whether it is true or not, only my general observation that when something happens that could be malice or incompetence, the smart bet is on incompetence.  Entropy is a powerful thing.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #206 on: January 25, 2024, 05:28:41 am »
  So who are you trying to pin this on?    Bombardier?

It's wildly systemic - loose/missing fasteners on plug doors, the rudder control tie rods, "many loose bolts"...  when they really aren't rocket science to install and tighten. The FAA looking at bolts at 50 locations is just unbelievable.
That's when I say something other than human error is at play here. Not trying to pin it on anyone. 100 things are wrong. Although, I think a CEO needs to be held responsible for the corporation they are in charge of, the consequences are entirely theirs to own. Imagine if a few people got sucked out of the plug door opening or the plane went down.

Find it funny that the greens push for it:
Harvard Environmental Law Review, Vol. 48, No. 1, 2024 Arkush, David and Braman, Donald.
"Climate Homicide: Prosecuting Big Oil For Climate Deaths (January 23, 2023)"
"... they argue that some big oil companies should be charged with homicide because of what the authors claim is reckless profiteering that has caused deaths from pollution and climate change."

MCAS killed 346 people, Boeing charged with 737 Max fraud measly $2.5B fine.
"Today's deferred prosecution agreement holds Boeing and its employees accountable for their lack of candor with the FAA regarding MCAS,” said Special Agent in Charge Emmerson Buie Jr. of the FBI’s Chicago Field Office. “The substantial penalties and compensation Boeing will pay, demonstrate the consequences of failing to be fully transparent with government regulators. The public should be confident that government regulators are effectively doing their job, and those they regulate are being truthful and transparent.”  :-DD
Former chairman and CEO Dennis Muilenburg, it happened under his rule: scott-free plus golden parachute.
 
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Offline GyroTopic starter

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #207 on: January 25, 2024, 09:51:48 am »
It looks as if the MAX9s are cleared to rattle back into the air as soon as tomorrow as long as they have completed their inspections!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68090175


However (from the same article)...

Quote
"This won't be back to business as usual for Boeing," FAA Administrator Mike Whitaker said in a statement.

"We will not agree to any request from Boeing for an expansion in production or approve additional production lines for the 737 Max until we are satisfied that the quality control issues uncovered during this process are resolved," he added.

and...

Quote
United Airlines chief executive, Scott Kirby, also told CNBC that he is "disappointed".

"The Max 9 grounding is probably the straw that broke the camel's back for us," he said, adding that "we're going to build a plan that doesn't have the [Boeing] Max 10 in it".
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #208 on: January 26, 2024, 10:55:36 pm »
There is a saying for an empire’s decay, that I believe would also apply to large corporations;

“Empires aren’t vanished from an enemy’s sword, they are obliterated from self-inflicted wounds.”
Or words to the effect. It has been a long time since I read it.

There were several US companies, IBM, GM, GE, Kodak and others, that so thoroughly dominated a particular business, that it was beyond inconceivable to even think about its downfall. Boeing was such a company in the commercial aircraft business. It is still a behemoth, don’t get me wrong. But is no longer the undisputed leader.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #209 on: January 27, 2024, 04:59:32 pm »
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #210 on: January 27, 2024, 05:39:35 pm »
more like a torque wrench calibration problem

I heard culture problem before. but we knew what the problem was, it was pretty simple, a group of people decided to be really cheap.

I wonder if it has to do with those fancy electronic torque indicating wrenches they have now. I started seeing the high end models around online like 2-3 years ago. Maybe they suck.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 06:01:56 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline jfiresto

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #211 on: January 27, 2024, 05:55:11 pm »
I think I know what you are saying, but somehow, watching a group of executives return 120% of profits to themselves and the shareholders (effectively liquidating the company) does not strike me as being cheap.
-John
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #212 on: January 27, 2024, 06:02:44 pm »
I think I know what you are saying, but somehow, watching a group of executives return 120% of profits to themselves and the shareholders (effectively liquidating the company) does not strike me as being cheap.

yeah they have profits because they were cheap on inspections, tool QC, inspections of inspections, training,, retention etc

it could be something like
'we have those fancy LCD torque wrenches that show you to the mili newton now. we don't need that inspection anymore so long the employee can read green lights!'. Meanwhile there is a lost washer impinging on bolt #1 and a juicy fruit gum wrapper crumple under bolt #2 and bolt #3 had wire strands in the thread and so on. Because the 20$ an hour untrained new hire was just told "put this in there, wait till its green, go to next one'. an then it gets sent off to the air field.

when the door got blown off all the garbage that obstructed the bolts probobly got throw out over kansas

and culture is IMO something like "that bracket is all dented from shipping boss bolt looks like it wont go in right! no we can't replace that its too expensive just straiten it out with those blocks over there and give it a little bit more torqueeeeee!!! OK!!! DONT LEAVE ANY MARKS ON IT!!!!!" instead of "this bracket is all dented from shipping. We should send it back! hmm... its pricy but all right I will make a phone call. see if you can figure out a plan to fix it if we don't get approval for a new part so I can document this"

case #1 has two shady employees (yes man and a pusher) and case #2 has two reasonable employees (worried about problems and the other one is not scared to communicate or possibly get involved in a bit of a discussion).

« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 06:15:44 pm by coppercone2 »
 
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Online jpanhalt

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #213 on: February 05, 2024, 12:49:09 pm »
In the news again: https://www.foxbusiness.com/fox-news-travel/boeing-potential-delivery-delays-misdrilled-holes-some-737-max-fuselages

Boeing rivet for misaligned holes:


Years ago, a popular cartoon circulated in shops showing Boeing or Northrop  fasteners,  depending on your point of view.  I have searched and couldn't find it.  The image above is not from that cartoon, but should give an idea of what that cartoon showed.
 
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Offline GyroTopic starter

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #214 on: February 05, 2024, 01:40:59 pm »
Emirates aren't very happy right now...

Quote
Boeing in ‘last chance saloon’, warns Emirates boss

The boss of Emirates airline has warned Boeing is in the "last chance saloon", saying he had seen a "progressive decline" in its performance.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68201371
Best Regards, Chris
 

Online Stray Electron

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #215 on: February 05, 2024, 02:11:06 pm »
In the news again: https://www.foxbusiness.com/fox-news-travel/boeing-potential-delivery-delays-misdrilled-holes-some-737-max-fuselages


   Based on the news this morning, they found a significant number of mis-located holes both in undelivered aircraft and in aircraft already delivered.  I have to wonder what kind of stresses and potential structural ruptures and "unplanned disassembles" those extra holes could lead to?
 

Offline MT

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #216 on: February 05, 2024, 06:31:04 pm »
Emirates aren't very happy right now...
Quote
Boeing in ‘last chance saloon’, warns Emirates boss
The boss of Emirates airline has warned Boeing is in the "last chance saloon", saying he had seen a "progressive decline" in its performance.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68201371


This happened at Boings latest board meeting!


 

Offline GyroTopic starter

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #217 on: February 05, 2024, 08:10:36 pm »
In the news again: https://www.foxbusiness.com/fox-news-travel/boeing-potential-delivery-delays-misdrilled-holes-some-737-max-fuselages


   Based on the news this morning, they found a significant number of mis-located holes both in undelivered aircraft and in aircraft already delivered.  I have to wonder what kind of stresses and potential structural ruptures and "unplanned disassembles" those extra holes could lead to?

I remember a couple of crashes that were down to rear pressure bulkhead rupture, I think one was a 747. Needless to say something like that, in addition to the explosive decompression, plays catastrophic hell with the rear control surfaces.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #218 on: February 05, 2024, 08:37:00 pm »
In the news again: https://www.foxbusiness.com/fox-news-travel/boeing-potential-delivery-delays-misdrilled-holes-some-737-max-fuselages


   Based on the news this morning, they found a significant number of mis-located holes both in undelivered aircraft and in aircraft already delivered.  I have to wonder what kind of stresses and potential structural ruptures and "unplanned disassembles" those extra holes could lead to?

I remember a couple of crashes that were down to rear pressure bulkhead rupture, I think one was a 747.

Japan Air Lines Flight 123, gross misrepair of the bulkhead by Boeing technicians eventually ruptured resulting in a complete loss of hydraulics and the vertical stabiliser. Pilots retained control longer than anyone could ever equal in simulations.

Substantial number of unnecessary fatalities due to delayed rescue operations, partially thanks to political pressure.
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #219 on: February 05, 2024, 10:30:51 pm »
Emirates aren't very happy right now...

Quote
Boeing in ‘last chance saloon’, warns Emirates boss

The boss of Emirates airline has warned Boeing is in the "last chance saloon", saying he had seen a "progressive decline" in its performance.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68201371

That's ok, the CEO will get a new raise.
 

Offline GyroTopic starter

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #220 on: February 05, 2024, 10:38:51 pm »
Japan Air Lines Flight 123, gross misrepair of the bulkhead by Boeing technicians eventually ruptured resulting in a complete loss of hydraulics and the vertical stabiliser. Pilots retained control longer than anyone could ever equal in simulations.

Substantial number of unnecessary fatalities due to delayed rescue operations, partially thanks to political pressure.

Oh, that was it, the previous tail-strike repair. There was a hell of a lot of media coverage at the time.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #221 on: February 05, 2024, 11:53:07 pm »
The feedback loop is too long, too slow - by the time Boeing CEO and Wall Street realize the dividends are obtained from massively destructive business practices- it's far too late. They don't care anyway, live for today's profit! What's weird is the industry is only two big players so you have no choice to say go Airbus.

I think it will end up like GM, Boeing commercial division go belly up and then massive bailouts.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #222 on: February 06, 2024, 12:09:02 am »
What's weird is the industry is only two big players so you have no choice to say go Airbus.

That's what we think in the West.
Some countries outside of the Western world will probably have little problem going from Boeing to a chinese, or even russian manufacturer instead, if things go real sour.
 

Online Stray Electron

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #223 on: February 06, 2024, 12:24:54 am »
! What's weird is the industry is only two big players so you have no choice to say go Airbus.


   There is absolutely nothing weird about that if you've followed any of the large American companies. They make such large profits that they buy the competing companies out until there are one of two very large companies left to compete in that market. Ive seen it happen time and time again with banks, defense companies, electronics companies, large retail stores, cable TV companies, food production companies, computer companies, air lines and aircraft manufactures to name just a few.

  The U.S. Federal Trade Commission is supposed to block such large mergers where it would leave virtually no completion in the market but they RARELY do.
 

Offline RJSV

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #224 on: February 06, 2024, 01:27:35 am »
   StrayElectron, I see your point about the monopoly/antitrust dynamic.  We seem to be in a huge situation right now,...as AD-ware gobbles up more and more viewer time, in apparent disregard for clients, or even the concepts around the relationships, ideally.
   No, the customer isn't even 'last in line's it feels like.
   It's only one media corporation/search engine/video producer/enterprise software that I'm talking about, here.

We got the BEST monopoly, ever.
 


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