Author Topic: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows [door plugs] stayed in!  (Read 98330 times)

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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #225 on: February 06, 2024, 06:09:19 am »
There is a bit of piling on here.  Mis-drilled holes are not terribly uncommon in the aircraft industry (particularly in the maintenance and repair area).  There are fairly well established procedures to determine whether they can be repaired (with established repair techniques) or if the part/assembly must be replaced.

So there is a mix of good news/bad news here.  Bad holes found - neither good nor bad.  It happens.  What matters is when you figure it out and what you do about it.   Boing (not other parties) found bad holes - good news, and maybe the first signs of a turn around in the quality culture.  Too soon to tell.  Boeing found bad holes in delivered airframes.  Bad news.  No one outside of Boeing and possibly the FAA knows how bad this news is.  In terms of safety impact it could be anywhere from nothing, to a dire risk.  From an economic perspective it could mean reduced airframe life, or expensive repairs.  It is bad news from the standpoint of Boeing QA at that point in time, but that isn't new news, there was already ample evidence of that.  Boeing went public with their findings.  Good news.  If it was totally voluntary pretty darn good news as more evidence of a renewed commitment to safety.  Not so good news from the perspective of stock prices and the effect on the general publics confidence in Boing products, but that's the bed they made.  Only time will tell how this plays out in the long run.
 

Offline nardev

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #226 on: February 06, 2024, 06:30:26 am »
I hope this saga with Boeing will end but knowing the mentality of "managers which are only managers" and ego game, i'm afraid this would not be the last issue with this plane.

This is miserable.

Last year 4 times i was in 737 max and i was always near the doors and thinking if i should actually keep the belt or not.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #227 on: February 06, 2024, 09:22:54 pm »
"Bolts missing from door, says blowout report"

The US National Transportation Safety Board has released initial findings from its probe into the incident on an Alaska Airlines plane in January.

It says four key bolts that were meant to lock the unused door to the fuselage appeared to be missing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68220627

The NTSB website appears to be straining under load, but here is the preliminary report: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/DCA24MA063%20Preliminary%20report.pdf

Edit:  the description in the BBC report (haven't checked the NTSB one) is a near-exact match for the whistleblower comments - Spirit damaged the door, and process failure allowed it to be fitted without bolts being verified.  The only unconfirmed thing is, whether this happened because Spirit was unable to access the Boeing systems or not.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2024, 09:26:04 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline GyroTopic starter

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #228 on: February 06, 2024, 09:33:26 pm »
...
Last year 4 times i was in 737 max and i was always near the doors and thinking if i should actually keep the belt or not.

Always, even if you loosen it off a bit! Clear air turbulence could have to face planting (or worse) on the overhead storage bin before you even know what's happening.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear-air_turbulence
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #229 on: February 06, 2024, 10:37:47 pm »
PDF copy if anyone can't get the NTSB website to load.  (wget managed it eventually, Chrome gave up many times.)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oxhjRes07C1DE2xc9hleit5hKkiyaEEX/view?usp=sharing
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #230 on: February 07, 2024, 05:24:51 am »
PDF copy if anyone can't get the NTSB website to load.  (wget managed it eventually, Chrome gave up many times.)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oxhjRes07C1DE2xc9hleit5hKkiyaEEX/view?usp=sharing

You just know that most of the people downloading this report are ambulance chasers checking the opportunities for a big payday.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #231 on: February 10, 2024, 04:51:33 pm »
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #232 on: February 10, 2024, 08:36:53 pm »
From the DCA24MA063 preliminary report,
Quote
The Manufacturing Records Group traveled to Boeing’s Renton, Washington, facility to review manufacturing records for the accident airplane specific to the left MED plug area. According to records, the accident fuselage arrived at Boeing’s Renton facility by rail on August 31, 2023. During the manufacturing process, if any defects or discrepancies were found, a Non-Conformance Record (NCR) or a disposition required NCR were generated.

On September 1, 2023, records show that NCR 1450292531 was created noting five damaged rivets on the edge frame forward of the left MED plug. See figure 14 for rivet locations.

Documents and photos show that to perform the replacement of the damaged rivets, access to the rivets required opening the left MED plug (see figure 15). To open the MED plug, the two vertical movement arrestor bolts and two upper guide track bolts had to be removed.

Records show the rivets were replaced per engineering requirements on Non-Conformance (NC) Order 145-8987-RSHK-1296-002NC completed on September 19, 2023, by Spirit AeroSystems personnel.  Photo documentation obtained from Boeing shows evidence of the left-hand MED plug closed with no retention hardware (bolts) in the three visible locations (the aft upper guide track is covered with insulation and cannot be seen in the photo). See figure 16. This image was attached to a text message between Boeing team members on September 19, 2023, around 1839 local. These Boeing personnel were discussing interior restoration after the rivet rework was completed during second shift operations that day.

The investigation continues to determine what manufacturing documents were used to authorize the opening and closing of the left MED plug during the rivet rework.

Interesting. My interpretation is that the plug was removed and then put back in but maybe without all the bolts being done up hence the failure. I wonder if it was a case of A assuming B would refit and do the bolts up but B assumed A had done it.

However that doesn't explain the reports of other plug doors having issues.
Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
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So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 

Online tooki

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #233 on: February 11, 2024, 11:59:37 am »
Boeing is a military contractor, it sounds so sloppy. To be fair the FCC share blame needs to have staff in both facilities taking
pictures, inspections.
The FCC definitely isn't in charge of aircraft manufacturing oversight. ;)
 

Online tooki

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #234 on: February 11, 2024, 12:00:57 pm »
Crazy that a plug door did not require an inspection unless removed. How could that happen it uses fasteners?
They were inspected when first manufactured. Why re-inspect something that passed its final inspection, if it hasn’t been touched since?
 

Online jpanhalt

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #235 on: February 11, 2024, 12:50:43 pm »
They were inspected when first manufactured. Why re-inspect something that passed its final inspection, if it hasn’t been touched since?

That theory doesn't quite apply to civilian aircraft.  "Annual*" inspections  are required and detailed.  As just one example, wing attachment bolts that are factory installed and rarely, if ever removed get inspected.

*In the US, our military has its own standards.  An "annual" may be performed once a year or by an approved continuous maintenance/inspection program.  The former is most common for smaller, general aviation aircraft.  The latter generally applies to much larger or more complex aircraft.   Rules in other countries may vary.
 

Offline GyroTopic starter

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #236 on: February 11, 2024, 01:03:22 pm »
Crazy that a plug door did not require an inspection unless removed. How could that happen it uses fasteners?
They were inspected when first manufactured. Why re-inspect something that passed its final inspection, if it hasn’t been touched since?

Because it was 'touched since', see the latest video. Sprite fitted it to the fuselage before they shipped it to Boeing. There it was removed at Boeing to facilitate repair of some rivets in the frame (fuselage). It was then re-fitted and not finally inspected.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #237 on: February 11, 2024, 01:11:47 pm »
They were inspected when first manufactured. Why re-inspect something that passed its final inspection, if it hasn’t been touched since?

That theory doesn't quite apply to civilian aircraft.  "Annual*" inspections  are required and detailed.  As just one example, wing attachment bolts that are factory installed and rarely, if ever removed get inspected.

*In the US, our military has its own standards.  An "annual" may be performed once a year or by an approved continuous maintenance/inspection program.  The former is most common for smaller, general aviation aircraft.  The latter generally applies to much larger or more complex aircraft.   Rules in other countries may vary.

Yeah but this was a new aircraft (~3 months) with only 510 hours on it so not really into annual checks territory. All aircraft have annual checks and other checks based on the number of hours in service much like cars get annual checks and ones based on mileage.
Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
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So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #238 on: February 12, 2024, 06:24:51 pm »
U.S. regulators are warning airlines to limit the use of an anti-icing system on Boeing 737 Max jets in dry air to avoid overheating engine-housing parts,
which could cause them to break away from the plane.

The Federal Aviation Administration says the risk to the flying public is serious enough that it will put the order into effect in just 15 days, and without allowing public comment first.
The FAA said if the engine inlet gets too hot, parts of the housing could come off and strike a window, causing decompression and a hazard to passengers in window seats.
The FAA is dictating that flight manuals tell pilots and airlines not to use engine anti-ice in dry air for more than five minutes. Otherwise, the FAA said, “during certain combinations
of altitude, total air temperature” and engine settings, the engine inlet inner barrel could be heated beyond its design limit.



https://nationalpost.com/news/faa-warns-of-safety-hazard-from-overheating-engine-housing-on-boeing-max-jets-during-anti-icing
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 06:27:15 pm by MT »
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #239 on: February 12, 2024, 09:41:37 pm »
That keeps getting better! :-DD
 

Offline watchmaker

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #240 on: February 12, 2024, 10:10:25 pm »
Boeing is a military contractor, it sounds so sloppy. To be fair the FCC share blame needs to have staff in both facilities taking
pictures, inspections.
The FCC definitely isn't in charge of aircraft manufacturing oversight. ;)

Tooki,

My understanding of US inspection policy is that agencies may designate individuals who serve as contract inspectors on site.  There was a time when a federal inspector was on site, for everything from food processing to aircraft certification.  But as citizens demanded fewer govt employees, this approach evolved.  It is even reflected in education by our accreditation bodies approved by the Dept of Education to verify educational institutions meet standards, from elementary school to medical residencies.

But in all cases, the final responsibility rests with the designating agency.

So from my point of view, yes the FAA is involved, and yes they have responsibility for the fiasco.  What makes it worse is that this scenario has been a very slow moving train wreck since at least the 1990s.

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/individual_designees/manufacturing

Regards,

Dewey
 

Online jpanhalt

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #241 on: February 12, 2024, 10:17:00 pm »
U.S. regulators are warning airlines to limit the use of an anti-icing system on Boeing 737 Max jets in dry air to avoid overheating engine-housing parts,
which could cause them to break away from the plane.

OMG.   That's terrible.  The B29, which was instrumental in defeating Japan in WWII, had a problem with engine overheating.  Namely, the cowl flaps, which are usually closed during cruise, needed to be left open.  Of course, that was approved because of the exigencies of war.  Is the 737 a strategic bomber, and who did Boeing think we were fighting? ;)
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #242 on: March 02, 2024, 08:26:19 am »
Will Boeing last?


 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #243 on: March 02, 2024, 04:47:34 pm »
Boeing is “too large to fail”, plus it has plenty of military and space contracts.

The US government, aka the taxpayers, will bail them out.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #244 on: March 02, 2024, 09:42:14 pm »
But what gets fixed up in that fail+bailout process?
You can't mandate safety or manufacturing quality. You can't mandate against corporate greed and catering to Wall Street investors. The MBA's don't quite get it.
The Boeing Problem is from damage decades in the making and their culture is rotten.

Automaker bailouts were around $17B and "Management-Restrictions were placed on executive compensation and privileges, including pay, bonuses, golden parachutes, incentives, and benefits. Executives were also restricted from compensation agreements that would encourage them to take “unnecessary and excessive risks” or to manipulate earnings (Cooney et al., 2009, pp. 42–43)." source

Wow I guess that fixes everything  :-DD
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #245 on: March 02, 2024, 10:10:47 pm »
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #246 on: March 02, 2024, 10:25:03 pm »
Or maybe we're supposed to accept these unfortunate events as the new normal, aviation has been the safest mode of transportation until now, but it has been very costly. So maybe we, as passengers, need to lower our high expectations a bit so that shareholders can get more profit. We're just being selfish with those expectations. :popcorn:
 

Offline MT

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #247 on: March 14, 2024, 03:38:39 pm »

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/congressman-sold-boeing-stock-hours-doj-probe-was-announced

QUOTE:
And as the pressure ratchets up on Boeing, it's becoming increasingly obvious that management is running the same type of interference it did during the infamous MCAS scandal and ensuing cover-up attempt which cost former CEO Muilenburg his job. Sure enough, on Wednesday we learned that Boeing - in a pure coincidence that Jeffrey Epstein would approve of - "overwrote", i.e. deleted, security camera footage showing work being done on a door that blew out on the Alaska Airlines MAX jet in January.

It's not just the footage however: NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy said it is unclear "who performed the work to open, reinstall, and close the door plug on the accident aircraft," as Boeing is "unable to find the records documenting this work." In Homendy's letter, she writes that despite requests to Boeing and interviews at the Renton, Washington factory where the panel was removed, the identity of the crew member that worked on the panel remains unknown and has would be unable to "provide a statement or interview to NTSB due to medical issues."
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #248 on: March 14, 2024, 04:02:18 pm »
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/congressman-sold-boeing-stock-hours-doj-probe-was-announced

Zerohedge?

I have a bridge in New York, which I want to sell. Are you interested in buying it from me?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #249 on: March 14, 2024, 08:13:41 pm »
Or maybe we're supposed to accept these unfortunate events as the new normal, aviation has been the safest mode of transportation until now, but it has been very costly. So maybe we, as passengers, need to lower our high expectations a bit so that shareholders can get more profit. We're just being selfish with those expectations. :popcorn:

Wall Street and the MBA's leave engineering setup to fail - starved of time, R&D, senior people and outsourcing bits and pieces, rush rush hurry hurry scorecard, get that plane out the door!
So what are the engineer's expectations? Just be happy to collect your paycheque I guess, even though the bean-counter CEO's is 158x more dollars.

Who would want to work for Boeing?

Fuckin' icing has killed 100's if not 1,000's of people in aviation and here we are today with Boeing pushing for a Wile E. Coyote nacelle heating scheme and FAA can you look the other way please. Such advanced greed-tech, way to go.
 


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