Author Topic: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows [door plugs] stayed in!  (Read 99485 times)

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Online tom66

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2024, 11:07:21 pm »
The passenger aviation business is already severely damaged, starting with the covid period and getting more and more dents due to the rising costs, and a clear political goal to limit commercial passenger flights in the future.

And keep in mind Boeing fired a large number of employees in the past few years. It may have helped them cut their losses but I doubt it's going to help them make better planes.

Airline passenger numbers have recovered sharply.  The number of people travelling in 2023 was 12% lower than 2019, compared to 2020 and 2021 at around 50% down.  Most analysts expect 2024 to have more passengers than 2019. 
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #101 on: January 09, 2024, 11:30:01 pm »
Personally I think the US government will inspect and say prove it, if they don't confidence in aviation will be
lowered. Boeing is to blame but there has been a real lack of oversight.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2024, 04:47:42 am »
The Wall Street driven aggressive, relentless pursuit of maximum profit, gotta get those quarterly numbers up, cater only to our shareholders - it's led to so much damage of companies, industries that have a lot of engineering and technology. I would say many of us have seen the decay. Sometime I wonder if it's not intentional, to destroy a manufacturer important to a nation's military.
When it reaches the conclusion of shoddy products that fail, lives lost - only then does some feeble correction effort get attempted. Corporate capitalism needs to change.

Boeing CEO Calhoun said he had been "shaken to the bone" by the accident.
"We're going to approach this, number one, acknowledging our mistake," Calhoun told employees, according to an excerpt released by Boeing. "We're going to approach it with 100% and complete transparency every step of the way."
Calhoun also told Boeing employees the company would "ensure every next airplane that moves into the sky is in fact safe."

Good luck Mr. Bean counter, this has all been heard before.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2024, 05:28:04 am »
The Wall Street driven aggressive, relentless pursuit of maximum profit, gotta get those quarterly numbers up, cater only to our shareholders - it's led to so much damage of companies, industries that have a lot of engineering and technology. I would say many of us have seen the decay. Sometime I wonder if it's not intentional, to destroy a manufacturer important to a nation's military.
When it reaches the conclusion of shoddy products that fail, lives lost - only then does some feeble correction effort get attempted. Corporate capitalism needs to change.

Boeing CEO Calhoun said he had been "shaken to the bone" by the accident.
"We're going to approach this, number one, acknowledging our mistake," Calhoun told employees, according to an excerpt released by Boeing. "We're going to approach it with 100% and complete transparency every step of the way."
Calhoun also told Boeing employees the company would "ensure every next airplane that moves into the sky is in fact safe."

Good luck Mr. Bean counter, this has all been heard before.

This is partly inherent in capitalism, but more in tax codes.  I can't speak to the rest of the world, but the US tax code enables the stock market lottery, which in turn drives corporate finance to short term results.  In principal we could fix this, but it would require politicians that reported to the electorate instead of their campaign financiers.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2024, 07:54:54 am »
It's always how close you can push it to the line, stretching pennies. They say the words but I'd love to see
penalties at the top, and i mean money. A simple rule no bonuses for two years. Never happen of course.

How about no corporate lobbyists or campaign contributions? 
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2024, 08:01:01 am »
I wonder why the bolt is getting loose.

they have a bunch of technologies to prevent loosening... I wonder if there is a design problem with the bolt implementation or possibly the bolt
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #106 on: January 10, 2024, 08:43:27 am »
I wonder why the bolt is getting loose.

they have a bunch of technologies to prevent loosening... I wonder if there is a design problem with the bolt implementation or possibly the bolt

Everything critical like this relies on inspections. Unfortunately when done in house things are skipped. Look at a checkbox, yup done, inspect the left hand door plug yup perfect, I'm sure the rest will be fine.

Outside inspections tend to be better but even then redundant systems are needed.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #107 on: January 10, 2024, 09:00:46 am »
its possible it got loose after inspection for some reason

its over confident to just blame the inspector there might be a real problem

thats another way to cover up because you can keep replacing cheap inspectors rather then having engineers do complicated analysis that costs more. I have seen installer/assembler been blamed for things that sounded good but scrutiny revealed it was simply not correctly implemented. its pretty sad usually when you find it lol
« Last Edit: January 10, 2024, 09:10:14 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Andy Chee

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #108 on: January 10, 2024, 09:34:12 am »
its possible it got loose after inspection for some reason
A correctly installed castle nut and cotter pin cannot work itself loose.

Inattentional blindness could've caused the inspector to completely overlook missing cotter pins.



« Last Edit: January 10, 2024, 09:36:53 am by Andy Chee »
 
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Offline GyroTopic starter

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #109 on: January 10, 2024, 09:50:01 am »
It's unfortunate that the door plug catastrophe has overshadowed the 29th Dec rudder linkage bolt with missing nut that I briefly mentioned in my OP (briefly mentioned by floobydust and the Reply #99 video. It highlights that Boeing have simply forgotten how to build planes!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67838424

I love the "Out of an abundance of caution, we are recommending operators inspect their 737 Max airplanes and inform us of any findings. We informed the FAA and our customers and will continue to keep them aware of the progress." quote.

When did Boeing last demonstrate an abundance of caution, or is this in their future plans.

Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline AndyBeez

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #110 on: January 10, 2024, 12:18:21 pm »
Thread lock anyone? Was the issue down to the fitters not having the correct tool, or the bolt heads are inaccessible with the correct tool? It could be a part that is specified to tighten as hard as you can, rather like wheel nuts.

Maybe the retaining bolts are just an 'option' anyway, as the door locking mechanism already keeps a functional and armed escape door permanently locked in place? I suspect the 'eject' mechanism could be the culprit; it was only the ill-fitted bolts that kept the door from falling out in the factory.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #111 on: January 10, 2024, 12:32:32 pm »
It could be a part that is specified to tighten as hard as you can, rather like wheel nuts.

Err.. which century is this?

Maybe the retaining bolts are just an 'option' anyway, as the door locking mechanism already keeps a functional and armed escape door permanently locked in place?

There is no door. There's nothing optional here.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #112 on: January 10, 2024, 12:50:26 pm »
There is a torque setting for every single fastener with a thread in an aircraft. Either a general one for that thread pitch and diameter of fitting, or a more specific one for a lot of the higher stress and critical parts. Even screw terminals have a torque setting, it is not a Gutentight spec, but a specific setting for each one. That is why every aircraft maintenance bay has a row of calibrated torque testers on the floor, so that every fastener that is put in has the correct value applied. Looks like here though that there is a culture of do it fast, and self inspection, or in reality no inspection. As it is rather well known that there is lax QC, I would say that there is a bigger issue, in that nothing that has come out of this assembly line for the last decade is going to be good, just that the redundancies are keeping them together.

Seems the cost cutting of dumping those expensive people, the ones with knowledge, degrees and 20 years of work experience, and replacing them with people earning minimum wage, because the suits think that assembling an aircraft is no different than flipping a burger at the golden arches, and anybody with a pulse can do it. That the product from the arches does not resemble the pictures in the ad, is not thought by the suits to be important, but when you have no option to return and tell them to make it again, because you have now made a large hole in the ground, this is not really good.
 
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Online tom66

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #113 on: January 10, 2024, 12:55:07 pm »
Thread lock anyone? Was the issue down to the fitters not having the correct tool, or the bolt heads are inaccessible with the correct tool? It could be a part that is specified to tighten as hard as you can, rather like wheel nuts.

Pretty much everything in aviation that you tighten is torque spec'd.  Torque drivers are calibrated frequently. 

Also, I would hate to be your mechanic. Even wheel nuts are supposed to be torqued correctly.  Now whether that is actually done in the real world or not is another matter, but it's not safer to overtorque things.  In fact it can be less safe because the bolt might fracture.
 
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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #114 on: January 10, 2024, 02:40:40 pm »
Well fingers will be pointed at assembler, the integrator and the manufacturer, plus the suppliers of the sub assemblies.  But the blame from the FAA will land on the one who stuck the nameplate on the fuselage, because they are the ones who signed off on it. Loose bolts, missing ones, are not something you want to find on an airframe that is still under warranty, though there are still way too many instances of poor assembly, especially electrical wiring, where IIRC one instance was a mistake in the fire suppression wiring, where firing the bottles resulted in the working engine being snuffed, because the wiring was crossed to the bottles, and another where the fire indicators showed the wrong engine being on fire.

So the company gets fined, the guy that physically did the deed has to live with it, and the guy at top who decided to use cheap untrained foreign labor and zero quality control to boost profits gets a 20 million dollar severance package, and gets hired by another major American manufacturing company. 

   Fixed it for you.
 

Offline YurkshireLad

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #115 on: January 10, 2024, 03:35:34 pm »
"We're going to approach this, number one, acknowledging our mistake," Calhoun told employees, according to an excerpt released by Boeing.

As in, "it's all OUR fault, not mine as CEO".
 
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Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #116 on: January 10, 2024, 04:54:20 pm »
When it comes to things like doors, door plugs and windows in a pressurized fuselage not only
is it well understood but the designs are reused because they work. That includes attachment points.

Accidents and destructive testing have already dictated the design.

I suppose it's possible an engineer changed something but I'm sure that would be expensive.



 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #117 on: January 10, 2024, 05:00:38 pm »
Even wheel nuts are supposed to be torqued correctly.

The problem is that there is more to it than that and it is entirely possible to grossly misassemble things (even wheels) despite using a torque wrench and even applying the correct torque.  A loose bolt doesn't necessarily result from that bolt being improperly tightened or secured.  Stuff like this just doesn't happen if the final installer--the body actually doing the work--is skilled and experienced because they'll recognize when something is amiss, even if the procedures are being correctly followed to the letter.  For decades, Boeing has been doing everything in it's power--moving, selling off divisions, opening factories in other states, outsourcing--to shed those skilled workers that know how to do these things properly.  This is the result--airplanes falling apart because some workers failed elementary bolt science 101.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #118 on: January 10, 2024, 05:04:09 pm »
Even wheel nuts are supposed to be torqued correctly.

The problem is that there is more to it than that and it is entirely possible to grossly misassemble things (even wheels) despite using a torque wrench and even applying the correct torque.  A loose bolt doesn't necessarily result from that bolt being improperly tightened or secured.  Stuff like this just doesn't happen if the final installer--the body actually doing the work--is skilled and experienced because they'll recognize when something is amiss, even if the procedures are being correctly followed to the letter.  For decades, Boeing has been doing everything in it's power--moving, selling off divisions, opening factories in other states, outsourcing--to shed those skilled workers that know how to do these things properly.  This is the result--airplanes falling apart because some workers failed elementary bolt science 101.

That's a very valid point. From design, documenting procedures to hands on work.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #119 on: January 10, 2024, 05:21:43 pm »
I've been wondering about the loose bolts on the door side lower hinge. Assuming they where done correctly
at the factory then the door was pulled off completely. But why? Wouldn't it be easier to remove the 4 bolt/pins?
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #120 on: January 10, 2024, 05:26:44 pm »
"We're going to approach this, number one, acknowledging our mistake," Calhoun told employees, according to an excerpt released by Boeing.

As in, "it's all OUR fault, not mine as CEO".

I think it would be worse if he took all the responsibility himself.  While he owns a good share, anyone who didn't do the job right also has a piece of the blame.  My son is an A&P, and as part of the training they actually took an oath, the essence of which is to do what is right, not what the boss says.  I don't know if that is a universal part of the training, but if it is, it says clearly that the blame isn't all at the top.  Even if not formally trained or sworn this remains true.

Stating the blame as our responsibility (if done properly) could be a way to shorten the path back to making superb airplanes.  If he assumes all blame himself, he then has to start at the top and propagate the needed change down.  And it makes him the single point of failure, where if he gets it wrong it stays broken.    By formally making it a shared responsibility the process starts top to bottom in parallel, and can potentially succeed in spit of failures at any point in the chain. 
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #121 on: January 10, 2024, 05:35:06 pm »
When I was a Boy Scout long, long ago, we made a field trip to the local base of the Minnesota Air National Guard.
Even at a young age, I was impressed by a prominent poster in the hangar with an oath for mechanics that included a clause forbidding certifying an unworthy aircraft by order of a superior.
 
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Online coppercone2

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #122 on: January 10, 2024, 06:23:12 pm »
Yes the oversimplification and abstract approach to assessment of difficulty used to reduce salary is also a massive quality problems. The number one thing people do to take your money is make your job seem overly simplified.
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #123 on: January 10, 2024, 10:55:21 pm »
I needed to make some measurements at work, went to get a multimeter and found they are all gone. QC dept. has sent them out for calibration per ISO 9000, out of country "they'll be back in 10 days".
Fine, I'll just bring in my own test equipment in "uh no you can't do that, we don't have insurance coverage for that"  :palm:

So I can't move forward on the project but have to appease the deity known as the Project Schedule/Gantt chart. Imagine- you can't make voltage measurements for 10 days.
It's how abusive corporations can be- commanding things to be running at full speed, despite the flat tires we give you, and if you complain you go on the blacklist. We only want unicorns and rainbows on the team.

Tools required for these plug door bolts, maybe a socket that was gone, fell into the fuselage etc. or QC took the torque wrench away for cal etc. leaves an assembler in a pickle.
He's stuck and can't finish the step, and fuck it shift ended I'm going home. Management doesn't fix the process, they just chastise the employee for not getting the work done.

Boeing is behind on shipments, pressure cooker to make deliveries. I'll bet employees get treated quite badly around achieving production numbers and the endless command to "make more faster!" so the boss gets his bonus when the quota is met, but the lowly assembler only sees higher stress.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Boeing 737 Max again, it would be nice if the windows stayed in!
« Reply #124 on: January 10, 2024, 11:30:29 pm »
Thread lock anyone? Was the issue down to the fitters not having the correct tool, or the bolt heads are inaccessible with the correct tool? It could be a part that is specified to tighten as hard as you can, rather like wheel nuts.

Pretty much everything in aviation that you tighten is torque spec'd.  Torque drivers are calibrated frequently. 

Also, I would hate to be your mechanic. Even wheel nuts are supposed to be torqued correctly.  Now whether that is actually done in the real world or not is another matter, but it's not safer to overtorque things.  In fact it can be less safe because the bolt might fracture.

Mechanics usually use a "rattle gun" which may or may not have a torque function.

They also tighten wheel nuts clockwise, which really "grinds my gears", having been brought up on the "adjust in a star pattern to equalise the stresses" mantra-----I even tighten covers on equipment that way!

That is, of course, actual mechanics-----the tyre changers are often only a few steps above the "burger flipper" level.
 


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