booties in boeing fuel tanks

[coppercone2]

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/20/02/22/0812248/after-inspecting-50-airplanes-boeing-found-foreign-object-debris-in-35-fuel-tanks

I did hear this is a commonish problem for people scared of label makers and excel

[SiliconWizard]

Nice.
 

[Domagoj T]

 
400/50/35 (planes waiting for delivery/inspected planes/contaminated planes), that's just pathetic. Makes you wonder about the rest of the worldwide fleet (~400 planes delivered).
Heads should be rolling.

[coppercone2]

400/50/35 (planes waiting for delivery/inspected planes/contaminated planes), that's just pathetic. Makes you wonder about the rest of the worldwide fleet (~400 planes delivered).
Heads should be rolling.

this is actually a common problem with aerospace, like satellite thrust systems often have wadding from pipe work cleaning left in them that causes problems.

But its 100% a management/accountability problem. You simply need detailed inspection and high wages (employee satisfaction) to do this job right. Ancient Egyptians can do this (ok maybe they need a boroscope) if they wanted to. All you need to do is send ANOTHER guy to look at it after the first guy comes out covered in sweat that did all the work etc. Yes, to see if there is a fucking piece of cotton or scrap of caulk left behind, for 30$ an hour.

I read the main complaints are that its uncomfortable angles, pain in the ass work, etc.. all that means is that you need more people to do inspections. Shorter work times, more breaks, time off, more people. Aerospace is supposed to be good at doing this! It's a 'simple' job that requires more care then terrestrial work.

[Domagoj T]

But its 100% a management/accountability problem.

Oh, yes, certainly. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the workers. I'm blaming the system where there is not someone whose job is to count the tools at the end of work day and pester everybody to return the tools at their proper place as soon as they're done with it. And not allow anybody to leave the area without their boot covers (if they are supposed to have them).
I know it's hard sometimes, and I will admit I'm guilty of that myself, but I know where all my tools are (somewhere on the workbench, of course, probably). Also, my work is far from life or death serious.

Yes, this sort of stuff can happen (and does with surprising frequency) even during surgeries where a piece of equipment or gauze is left in the patient.
http://www.asaabstracts.com/strands/asaabstracts/abstract.htm?year=2013&index=8&absnum=4400
That's why they use (or at least there is the tech that allows the usage of) barcode counting system. What goes in, must come out. Why is Boeing not using something like that (or if they do, why is it so ineffective?

[Mr. Scram]

I was promised booties. This thread is a disappointment.

[coppercone2]

this probobly happens because someone got too little supplies or thought they are good for longer (if you work with edge tools alot like scrapers) you can see they often get gummed up, burred,.. same with rags you lose 'cleaning power' in a rag.. so it might happen they underestimate how much stuff they need for a job , then there is a shortage of labled equipment and it has to go out and it seems ridiculous to wait hours for stuff to be inventoried so they just throw extra supplies at the problem.

I notice this ALOT with stuff like polishing pads, cleaning pads, wipes, brillos, scotch brite, sand paper, etc.

^ in addition to everything else.. inspection should cover this ANYWAY. But you know how people are with things like pens, paper towels, etc.. there always seems to be a shortage and use criticism. Either someone wearing down sand paper to optical flat or someone replacing it after 2 swipes. Trying to define it its stupid because its mostly cheap and can be easily cleaned up. But management is going to try to start a 3 billion dollar work study program to see how many times you can use a piece of sand paper rather then hire a guy to look at stuff left on the floor............... you know because ts supposed to be like your kitchen (in reality, they have 3 maids come by because they have bonus money from doing a 6 man job with 3 people with some overtime sprinkles). And the guy using the knife worn down to a 1mm blunt tip and 80 grit paper worn down silk smooth is going to get the best treatment too................ I can see these guys running a hospital with masonry dimensions on the scapels lol

[babysitter]

How about burning down everything and a trial for the managers that made it such a mess?

[coppercone2]

How about burning down everything and a trial for the managers that made it such a mess?

good time to do it with the downtime from the virus and china flight.. unfortunately its usually not easy because there is billions of dollars of cash going through these people and systems, and there are multinational interests and economies depend on it.. you could shut down a country if you shake things up too much at once

on the other hand, its air travel............. and you can take out a plane possibly with a fucking paper towel and razor blade  pretty stupid, very bad things happen because of flow problems and chipped pump gears, particulate filter is not meant to seperate razor blade from kerosene

[babysitter]

It's not unusual for other businesses to discard everything from the same lot if enough fails on inspection. Says me, with roles in both in the manufacture and the inspection of such goods to be stuck into humans.)

Doctors kill single persons, technicians tens, managers hundreds.

[coppercone2]

sounds like everything with a fuel tank is vulnerable, I don't know if you can just say one boeing plane design has some kind of insane fuel tank design that induces fear in mammals so bad that it makes technicians run away screaming with booties flying

So, rejection of boeing products in general does sound good (not just one plane). Unless they managed to make a  ghost trap by accident 

Drop your tools and run/crawl so fast that you loose your shoes in a tight vent. Where have I seen this scene before? I believe its a scene in one of the old james bond where he gets chased by the robowelder in the oil pipe. He might have literally lost a shoe.. Maybe some shoes were lost in the prometheus, the nostromo and the auriga.

In reality though, its probably sticky crap on the ground yanking the booties off. I do wonder however if there are any reports of ominous growling and other spooky noises.

I will say, if I see shoes left on the ground in odd places, I do get a bit concerned. Thats something that should make the hairs stand.

[Electro Detective]

I too attended this post for the booties thing  hoping to beat any Moderator 'Imperial Entanglements' 

Sounds to me boeing have either disgruntled competition, suss employees
or old school 'other peoples money' using ratbags that want to buy them out cheap, after they get a bad rep

So what else is new in 2020 ?     

[coppercone2]

I too attended this post for the booties thing  hoping to beat any Moderator 'Imperial Entanglements' 

Sounds to me boeing have either disgruntled competition, suss employees
or old school 'other peoples money' using ratbags that want to buy them out cheap, after they get a bad rep

So what else is new in 2020 ?     

i don't think its anything malicious, this happens at NASA all the time but no one cares because its satellites and no one dies (maybe congressmen's heart rate is elevated). They have to clean a bunch of complicated pipe work after testing rocket engines and end up leaving cleaning wipes in them. it's easy to fix it with inspection (they cannot leave the flushing fluid in the pipes because of corrosion and apparently heating them does not work for some reason). I think its still gummy or something after the flush and you just need to scrub it a bit.

IRRC there is a prelaunch test, and it tends to die during that phase, when a specially woven cleaning wipe and possibly bit of stainless steel rod hits a turbo pump or something


think the andromeda strain where they are looking for contamination on the satellite

[Nominal Animal]

[Kjelt]

The good thing it is not intentional as it was in the early 70s carmakers where bored pot smoking assembly line workers put rocks in the most expensive cars fuel tank.
But human mistakes do happen, even surgeons leave sometimes instruments and wipes behind per accident

[donotdespisethesnake]

After having worked for several of these large companies, I see the same general pattern. Managers constantly trying to cut costs. Older employees who know how to do things properly are steadily lost, and the skill set of the company is eroded. The culture becomes entirely focused around reducing cost, managers seem to hope that quality happens by some sort of "magic".

However, I think it is inevitable in a free market. The rule says that in a free market, product cost reduces to that of the the lowest cost producer. The corollary is that the quality reduces to that of the lowest cost producer. This is driven by consumers, in this case airlines. They can't charge a premium simply because they use Boeing, because their customers (the passengers) don't care, and will buy the cheapest seat.

I have spent many days in meetings battling with managers to persuade them their latest brilliant idea will not save time or money in the long run, and will probably make it worse. I nearly always lose, and then of course are part of the team trying to pull the project out of the shit at the last minute. The managers busy themselves writing reports, which they can bias towards blaming the workers for having done a bad job (aka "poor execution"), or the customer for providing inadequate requirements, whatever the reason, it's never the fault of the managers.

Boeing pushed their luck and got caught out. But whatever the fallout from that is, it is going to do nothing to change the industry trend.

[coppercone2]

The good thing it is not intentional as it was in the early 70s carmakers where bored pot smoking assembly line workers put rocks in the most expensive cars fuel tank.
But human mistakes do happen, even surgeons leave sometimes instruments and wipes behind per accident

?

[frogg]

The lead author of that story is someone whose full time job right now is to basically crap on Boeing:

https://muckrack.com/andrew-tangel

Before that, he was a media shill for Caterpillar. Before that, he was working as a beat reporter about the NYC MTA.

Keep in mind that in the first year, 737 MAX's flew 41,797 flights, logged 118,006 flight hours, and flew 6.5M passengers.

Booties notwithstanding, it's good to take journalists with a grain of salt. They always have angle.

[coppercone2]

you probably need to hire someone because who the hell is going to form a attack on giant industrial companies like caterpillar and boeing? especially when all their customers are probably locked into decades long service contracts and they are in bed with the government? Not exactly easy to fight a company that has ties to national defense and the nuclear program. The air force is talking shit about them its so bad

shoes in a fuel tank? thats like sneakers on a telephone pole its GHETTO. and caterpillar is not a great company either, listen to what old employees have to say about that place.. most people are happy to leave

[frogg]

shoes in a fuel tank? thats like sneakers on a telephone pole its GHETTO. and caterpillar is not a great company either, listen to what old employees have to say about that place.. most people are happy to leave

RTFA, mate.

[coppercone2]

shoes in a fuel tank? thats like sneakers on a telephone pole its GHETTO. and caterpillar is not a great company either, listen to what old employees have to say about that place.. most people are happy to leave

RTFA, mate.

 Materials left behind include tools, rags and boot coverings, according to industry officials familiar with the details...

 Boeing also twice had to halt deliveries of the KC-46A military refueling tanker to the U.S. Air Force after tools and rags were found in planes after they had been delivered from its Everett factory north of Seattle.

[Alti]

I have spent many days in meetings battling with managers to persuade them their latest brilliant idea will not save time or money in the long run, and will probably make it worse.

What do you do for a living then? Are you some kind of an owner's representative?
Subordinate by definition must be less competent than a superior.
 

[babysitter]

<willynelsonvoice>Good old shoe, good old shoe</willynelsonvoice>

[Nominal Animal]

Subordinate by definition must be less competent than a superior.

Such youthful optimism! 

I wish it were so.

[Mr. Scram]

The lead author of that story is someone whose full time job right now is to basically crap on Boeing:

https://muckrack.com/andrew-tangel

Before that, he was a media shill for Caterpillar. Before that, he was working as a beat reporter about the NYC MTA.

Keep in mind that in the first year, 737 MAX's flew 41,797 flights, logged 118,006 flight hours, and flew 6.5M passengers.

Booties notwithstanding, it's good to take journalists with a grain of salt. They always have angle.

Regardless Boeing does appear to have an issue with cutting corners and agencies trusting the Boeing name too much. It all reminds of some of the NASA disasters.