Author Topic: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers  (Read 39961 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MadScientist

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 439
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #150 on: December 24, 2020, 05:59:39 pm »
It was always going to be a poor deal - I think we've known this since the BREXIT vote. But probably better than NO deal.  It's the uncertainity that's been killing.

It’s a  piss poor deal. I have a daughter on the EU brexit team , it’s very very light. Mostly covering non contentious things like cross recognition of qualifications , flight routes
EE's: We use silicon to make things  smaller!
 

Offline BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7549
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #151 on: December 24, 2020, 06:15:42 pm »
Ok, many Brits posters here, mostly with negative aura  :-\, as an outsider, what are/is the good points out of these ? The bright side only please.

Offline fcbTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2135
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #152 on: December 24, 2020, 06:37:42 pm »
Be interesting to see if they’ll be some sort of DDP system - prepaid VAT.

Without duty (hopefully) it looks like VAT will be the only thing that will needs to be paid. Would make it easier if we can pay it when we get an order (DDP style) or when we place an order.

I hate the idea of placing a small order with say TME for £30.00 and then getting a DHL invoice for £17.00 (£6.00 VAT and £11.00 disbursement 🤬).
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10172
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #153 on: December 24, 2020, 06:42:41 pm »
There’s still a lot of uncertainty. It can be voted down by ERG plants and then we end up with no deal still.
Labour will vote for this and most Tory MPs are fundamentally remainers held hostage by the brextremists in the party and can claim they are voting 'for' brexit by agreeing to this deal. The ERG will be irrelevant.

Sadly, the chances of Farage & Co. fucking off permanently are minimal.

Aah, poor Farage is having a rough end to his year, first he loses Trump's 'frank admiration' and now his hard brexit, both within a couple of months!  :-DD
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10172
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #154 on: December 24, 2020, 06:47:29 pm »
Ok, many Brits posters here, mostly with negative aura  :-\, as an outsider, what are/is the good points out of these ? The bright side only please.

Well I guess you could count retaining a tariff free trading arrangement with our nearest and biggest trading partner as pretty positive. At least it's mitigated some of the damage that going to WTO terms would have wrought.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #155 on: December 24, 2020, 06:52:12 pm »
The big issue for small internet  traders selling into the uk from the eu and vice versa is customs clearance around vat
[...]

Is there a lower limit where they won't care?  or is e.g. ordering a tube of toothpaste from the EU now going to become a major exercise...
 

Offline MadScientist

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 439
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #156 on: December 24, 2020, 06:57:40 pm »
Be interesting to see if they’ll be some sort of DDP system - prepaid VAT.

Without duty (hopefully) it looks like VAT will be the only thing that will needs to be paid. Would make it easier if we can pay it when we get an order (DDP style) or when we place an order.

I hate the idea of placing a small order with say TME for £30.00 and then getting a DHL invoice for £17.00 (£6.00 VAT and £11.00 disbursement 🤬).

Unfortunately this is exactly what you’ll get. It only pays very large shippers to prepay vat etc

Duty was never going to be an issue as it’s low to non existent on electronics
EE's: We use silicon to make things  smaller!
 

Offline MadScientist

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 439
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #157 on: December 24, 2020, 06:58:47 pm »
Quote
Is there a lower limit where they won't care?  or is e.g. ordering a tube of toothpaste from the EU now going to become a major exercise...

The uk has removed the vat deminimis threshold from 1st Jan , the EU is doing the same from June 2021

( this will bugger up all those small Chinese orders too )
EE's: We use silicon to make things  smaller!
 
The following users thanked this post: SilverSolder

Offline MadScientist

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 439
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #158 on: December 24, 2020, 07:00:50 pm »
Ok, many Brits posters here, mostly with negative aura  :-\, as an outsider, what are/is the good points out of these ? The bright side only please.

There is no upside , quite frankly , the illusion of freedom is just that ,
EE's: We use silicon to make things  smaller!
 

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21225
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #159 on: December 24, 2020, 08:31:57 pm »
Hopefully he'll go flying in a light aircraft again  >:D

I'd say I hope the engine konks out, but as some of you know, I don't regard the lack of an engine as a negative :)

Personally I would opt for anthills, chains, and a six weeks supply of water.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
The following users thanked this post: SilverSolder, bd139

Offline fcbTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2135
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #160 on: December 26, 2020, 01:55:11 pm »
It's here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948104/EU-UK_Trade_and_Cooperation_Agreement_24.12.2020.pdf

There's a interesting and fairly concise article here that helps, although the focus is mainly on IMPORTING into the UK: https://smallbusiness.co.uk/what-the-brexit-deal-means-for-small-business-2551906/
The EORI number advice is relevant to both import and export.

For those EXPORTING to the EU from the UK: https://www.gov.uk/check-duties-customs-exporting



https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7549
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #161 on: December 26, 2020, 06:17:53 pm »
This at least, by the time of this posting, imo, is the best summary of the deal.

-> Explainer-How will the EU-British trade deal change ties?

Interesting phrase ...

"There are also areas left unfinished that will require more negotiation."  :P

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #162 on: December 26, 2020, 07:50:34 pm »
[...]
Interesting phrase ...

"There are also areas left unfinished that will require more negotiation."  :P

Yeah, predictably, this is just the beginning of years of wrangling and whining.
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10031
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #163 on: December 26, 2020, 08:00:07 pm »
[...]
Interesting phrase ...

"There are also areas left unfinished that will require more negotiation."  :P

Yeah, predictably, this is just the beginning of years of wrangling and whining.
Fully fleshed out international agreements always take years. When a quick agreement is announced, you can be sure its no more than an outline agreement. People sign outline agreements all the time. Its easy. Without the details you always have enough wiggle room to do pretty much anything you want to.

 

Offline BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7549
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #164 on: December 26, 2020, 08:28:07 pm »
Its already for years in making, ok, forget about it, fact is that is very convinient isn't it ?  >:D

Just let the next PM to bear the burden.  :P

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23099
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #165 on: December 26, 2020, 08:32:18 pm »
I hope there’s lots of pointing back at Boris, May and Cameron.
 

Offline Syntax Error

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 584
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #166 on: December 26, 2020, 08:36:01 pm »
Do any of you British 'elders' remember the British Standards Institution (BSI) which, went extinct as Britain had to abide by European's (DIN) standards? Would the function of the BSI need to return post Brexit?
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23099
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #167 on: December 26, 2020, 08:42:21 pm »
BSI is still around. One of my neighbours works there as HQ is only up the road. They’re still relevant and there is alignment across different standards bodies worldwide now. They mostly just assert and syndicate international standard as well as contributing  to them.
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10031
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #168 on: December 26, 2020, 08:56:54 pm »
Will the kite mark make a comeback?
 

Offline fcbTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2135
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #169 on: December 26, 2020, 09:09:16 pm »
Doubt it. There is the new ‘UKCA’ mark for items placed onto the UK market eventually.
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #170 on: December 28, 2020, 09:19:38 am »
The big issue for small internet  traders selling into the uk from the eu and vice versa is customs clearance around vat
[...]

Is there a lower limit where they won't care?  or is e.g. ordering a tube of toothpaste from the EU now going to become a major exercise...

My understanding was that VAT has always been due. Whilst in the EU it would have been like buying selling in the UK with VAT added. If you were non VAT registered you paid VAT to the seller even if in the EU, if you were VAT registered you would not pay the VAT but would presumably have it charged when it landed. The rest of the world didn't charge VAT and UK customs were supposed to collect it on arrival. I do remember something about the EU looking into the fact that the UK was not charging the VAT on all the items that were due it. I expect there was an exemption for small items but even on large items getting charged was hit and miss, but then the UK gov has always been shy about collecting taxes hence where we are now.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #171 on: December 28, 2020, 09:33:27 am »
BSI is still around. One of my neighbours works there as HQ is only up the road. They’re still relevant and there is alignment across different standards bodies worldwide now. They mostly just assert and syndicate international standard as well as contributing  to them.

Yea, most BS's became ISO's with the same number, that is international beyond Europe, some remained BS particularly UK specifics like wiring regulations.

What really pisses me off is that the standards the world has been operating under have been sold to the UK public as bad for UK business and preventing us being even better. Yep that's right, there is this insidious lie out there that because of these standards we are prevented from doing even better than the basics set out in the standards which defies basic logic but if you think how's stupid the average person is, now realize have of them are even more stupid than that. So people think we will just dump these standards many of which may have actually been created in the UK in the first place so that we can be cheaper and more competitive, totally missing the point that parents are now for example asking without realizing it that they want toys for their children to have paint on with lead in, because if you ditch everything that will become legal again. People don't realize that most of these standards are about their safety and protect them and you flipping bet that if we don't stick to them no one will want to buy our junk! People actually don't get the concept that it is the buyer that sets the standards they are willing to accept, and if they don't like yours, they just don't buy. We can make what little we make however the hell we like if we kinda just don't care that no one will buy it outside of the UK. I wonder, are our political and industrial masters actually going to run a dual system so that internally we get dangerous junk made cheaply but everything exported still complies? probably not practical but they'd do it if it made economic sense.
 
The following users thanked this post: Jacon, bd139, woofy

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #172 on: December 28, 2020, 09:41:40 am »
Ok, many Brits posters here, mostly with negative aura  :-\, as an outsider, what are/is the good points out of these ? The bright side only please.

There is no upside , quite frankly , the illusion of freedom is just that ,

I think we needed to define freedom in the first place. Lot's of people jumping up and down about it but if you asked them to define it they would not be able to tell you or you would get a load of incoherent gibberish. Living in a society is about giving something up in return for security. I can't say i want to be free to the extent that I should be able to murder people I don't like but then want to live in a society that locks yo up for murder and what about the freedom of my victim. People seem to not see that terms like freedom and rights are in the context of other peoples freedoms and rights and that when you are granted these two things you are also taking on responsibility to respect other peoples freedoms and rights, so you can't do exactly as you please. The same goes with international relationships.
 
The following users thanked this post: woofy

Offline fcbTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2135
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #173 on: December 28, 2020, 01:08:27 pm »
The big issue for small internet  traders selling into the uk from the eu and vice versa is customs clearance around vat
[...]

Is there a lower limit where they won't care?  or is e.g. ordering a tube of toothpaste from the EU now going to become a major exercise...

My understanding was that VAT has always been due. Whilst in the EU it would have been like buying selling in the UK with VAT added. If you were non VAT registered you paid VAT to the seller even if in the EU, if you were VAT registered you would not pay the VAT but would presumably have it charged when it landed. The rest of the world didn't charge VAT and UK customs were supposed to collect it on arrival. I do remember something about the EU looking into the fact that the UK was not charging the VAT on all the items that were due it. I expect there was an exemption for small items but even on large items getting charged was hit and miss, but then the UK gov has always been shy about collecting taxes hence where we are now.
The VAT situation has long been biased incorrectly.
Here's an example of how it works at present (UK) and will carry on working till at least 1st July 2021 between EU members.

Company in Luxembourg (17% VAT) sells a product to Consumer in Denmark (25% VAT) - Danish consumer is charged 17% VAT.
Company in Denmark (25% VAT) sells a product to Consumer in Denmark (25% VAT) - Danish consumer is charged 25% VAT.
Company in Luxembourg (17% VAT) sells a product to Company in Denmark (25% VAT) - Danish company is charged 17% VAT, and can reclaim this as INPUT tax (typically, there are exceptions).
Company in Luxembourg (17% VAT) sells a product to Consumer in Denmark (25% VAT) and supplies VAT number to Luxembourg company - Danish company is charged 0% VAT.

There are exceptions to this if a company sells beyond a certain threshold, but in general this is how it operates for the smaller companies.  This has always struck me as asymetric (neutral as whether it's good or bad).  In the UK this is part of the reason why CD/DVD retailers used to operate warehouses in the Channel Islands (the other reason was a VAT threshold on imports).

From 1st July 2021 this will change in the EU.  https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/modernising-vat-cross-border-ecommerce_en
The benefit of having a warehouse in a low VAT regime will largely disappear and the overall EU VAT take will apparently increase by €7bn - which essentially comes out the pockets of EU citizens... A more level playing field, by increasing the height of the soil (feel free to insert another synonym for soil)?

https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #174 on: December 28, 2020, 01:29:02 pm »
The problem you have is that the EU is not as tightly joined up as people crying about their independence think and despite a common currency they all have their own financial laws. If you are a consumer and you choose to buy elsewhere you just have to pay what the law says where you purchase, you are the one that chose to buy from another country.

As a VAT registered business it makes no difference. To deal with what you point out if a two VAT registered companies in the EU do business no VAT is paid on the sale. The importing country can/should apply VAT on import, the buyer will of course reclaim the VAT. When the buyer goes on to sell the goods in their country they will have to charge VAT, so that will be the VAT they reclaimed on import and VAT on the mark-up. The novelty in the EU was that for sales to consumers in other EU countries VAT was charged as though it was the same country and no import VAT on the consumers side. B2B transactions operated as they would anywhere else, if the buyer is not in the country (or EU for an EU country) then no VAT is charged and none is owed to that countries government. The receiver is then due to pay the VAT to their government at their local rate which they will reclaim anyway and then charge their customers and pay that to the government.

VAT is actually very simple and very effective. People pretend it's complicated because they just don't like paying tax! The simplicity of the VAT system means that it cannot be circumvented as easily as corporation tax and businesses do not like that so pretend that the system is illogical and should be scrapped.

It's true that the same tax is collected and then refunded as the goods move through VAT registered businesses until the point of sale where the VAT collected from the consumer cannot be reclaimed. But it's very simple and fool proof and in reality each company just pays or is refunded the difference in VAT owed either way. So If in a quarter which is the VAT period I buy £1'000 worth of stock and pay my £200 in VAT but then sell £500 worth of that stock at £1'000 thus charging £200 in VAT I don't owe the government anything and they don't owe me. If the next quarter I sell another £1'000 worth oy sale and collect £200 in VAT but have not bought any stock that I am due a VAT refund on I then have to pay the £200 to the government.
 
The following users thanked this post: SilverSolder


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf