Author Topic: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers  (Read 39955 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fcbTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2135
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #175 on: December 28, 2020, 02:02:00 pm »
For sure Simon, the VAT system is largely simple and effective. And the changes going on in the EU from 1st July 2021 will not have any material effect on UK businesses.

My primary concern is that EU customers from 1st January 2021 will be charged VAT locally at the point of import/delivery - and whilst it doesn't really matter where the VAT is paid, the extra friction and likely 'fees and disbursements' that will be charged to collect the VAT will be a PITA for EU customers buying from the UK.

Example (assuming exchange rate 1.11)

UK company selling a £30 thing to an German customer before 1st Jan 2021:
£36.00 (£30.00+VAT) paid by customer to UK company
£6.00 VAT forwarded by UK company to tresurary
thing costs customer ~€39.96

UK company selling a £30 thing to an EU customer on/after 1st Jan 2021:
£30.00 paid by German customer to UK company
£5.70 VAT (equivalent at some likely rubbish exchange rate) paid by German customer to German treasury via postal service or courier.
€6.00+ paid by German customer to postal service or courier for the service..
thing costs customer €33.30+€6.33+€6.00=~€45.63

On top of the extra cost for the customer there will likely be another day added to the delivery cycle and inconvience to the customer.

Can any EU forum members contribute examples of buying items from outside the EU, in particular the costs and delays incurred??
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 02:04:10 pm by fcb »
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #176 on: December 28, 2020, 02:10:12 pm »
Yes well we wanted to be outside of the EU so now don't share the little common stuff there was. Hopefully a simple system can be devised which should also be about regulating the carriers and what they can charge. DHL will just send me a demand for money and yes I have often paid more in fees than VAT and then not even have the decency to send me an invoice, virtually no record remains of the transaction and if I were VAT registered that is a problem but DHL are bigger than me so can tell me to eff off just like curries/PC world did when I asked for an invoice after filling in a form where they asked for my company name if any. We need laws and rules about how companies deal with this as a lot of the paperwork could be cut out or made simpler as it actually takes more time for small businesses to chase down paperwork that they have to have by law because a big business can tell them where to stick it whilst doing a sweetheart deal with HMRC.

So DHL whilst doing minimum work and charging me £11 a go are making a small fortune out of this racket.
 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #177 on: December 28, 2020, 02:30:40 pm »
[...]
My primary concern is that EU customers from 1st January 2021 will be charged VAT locally at the point of import/delivery - and whilst it doesn't really matter where the VAT is paid, the extra friction and likely 'fees and disbursements' that will be charged to collect the VAT will be a PITA for EU customers buying from the UK.
[...]

One example I have is sending a package from the US to a Northern European country...  the package could not be delivered to the door, it could only be picked up at the post office and only after paying VAT and processing fees.  In this case, the recipient ended up having to pay VAT on a much higher estimated value of the contents than the value that had been declared on the package!  In other words, the tax authorities are free to make things up as they go along,  just as senders are free to make up a value when they send it!  :D
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #178 on: December 28, 2020, 02:38:30 pm »
well this is where full invoices should be provided and stuck to. I guess that importing businesses could be spot check audited on their accounts that need to show what payment for goods a payment for VAT relates to. It would soon be clear if any fiddling was going on. For VAT registered companies not a problem as whatever it is it will be claimed back anyway. Non VAT companies would have an incentive to cheat. For individuals it is a nightmare and it needs clear rules. But unless countries cooperate you can't really prove much. I mean think of all those "gifts" from china. The Uk wants to "take back control"? it never exerted what control it did have and then got investigated by the EU.
 
The following users thanked this post: SilverSolder

Offline fcbTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2135
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #179 on: December 28, 2020, 03:06:33 pm »
The fundamental argument/problem here is not whether or not VAT should exist - just on how it is collected, and the costs involved in collecting it.

DHL/Fedex both a rubbish at invoicing correctly and in a timely manor - and we have an account with DHL! UPS are marginally better (again we have an account with UPS) but run some steam-driven websites that can be very tricky to prise an invoice out of.

Suspect there will be innovation in the space to lower the costs of collecting the VAT, perhaps a mechanism that allows the customer to pay online when they get a tracking# - DHL do something like this when we receive some stuff from China.
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #180 on: December 28, 2020, 03:11:19 pm »
Yes systems already exist. I always pay DHL in advance. But the problem is actually these companies that are using something people hate, fear and don't understand as an excuse to rip them off. I really don't know what DHL do for their 11 quid. They can't be assed to send the demand for money to my email they text it to me. I use a computer for online stuff not a phone. Are they seriously telling me that it cost them £11 worth of time to look at the value on the invoice and press a button to send me the text? it's ridiculous. The problem is not the existence of VAT and how will we manage, we have been doing this already but the carriers are using it as an excuse to profit.
 

Offline themadhippy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3264
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #181 on: December 28, 2020, 03:26:18 pm »
Quote
The fundamental argument/problem here is not whether or not VAT should exist
now were out of the EU it shouldn't exist,it was only introduced as part of the  conditions of joining the common market,its predecessor,purchase tax,like most other taxes was introduced during war time as a means to raise cash.
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23099
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #182 on: December 28, 2020, 03:29:20 pm »
It probably should exist. The only difference is that it is harmonised rather than collected at the border.

Now we’re going to be, as Simon suggested, screwed by the carriers to collect it on behalf of the taxation regime.
 
The following users thanked this post: SilverSolder

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #183 on: December 28, 2020, 03:34:15 pm »
As taxes go I would rather scrap corporation tax and increase VAT due to it's simplicity and virtual impossibility of circumventing. The net result would be the same, the tax would be paid rather than avoided. The problem with imports is unique and will apply to any levy on imports where some third party has to do a load of work. Maybe the government should "take back control" and manage the customs themselves rather than sub it out to private companies like the carriers that are making more at our expense and then dodging tax on it than the tax the government get. Don't be angry with the tax, be angry with the ripoff merchants and a government that closes an eye to it all.
 
The following users thanked this post: SilverSolder, bd139

Offline Nauris

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 188
  • Country: fi
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #184 on: December 28, 2020, 03:47:15 pm »
Can any EU forum members contribute examples of buying items from outside the EU, in particular the costs and delays incurred??
If it comes as regular post parcel and you have the tracking code you can rather easily do the customs declaration and pay vat and any customs tarifs in the customs online service. Post charges 2.90 Euros handling fee (that you must remember to pay separately).

If it comes with some premium courier, they charge you between 10 to 20 euros for their service.
 
The following users thanked this post: fcb

Offline fcbTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2135
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #185 on: December 28, 2020, 03:49:10 pm »
Taxes are an inevitability - and they should be collected in the most efficient manor possible. Most countries charge consumption tax - both Saudia Arabia and Dubai have recently introduced VAT.

There is a statute somewhere that prevents courier firms charging much more than it actually costs - and for sure it doesn't (or shouldn't) cost £11 to collect a VAT payment, they just have no incentive to be more efficient as the amount - if they become more efficient and make more profit on collecting taxes, the statute will force them to charge less.

https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 
The following users thanked this post: SilverSolder

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #186 on: December 28, 2020, 03:56:47 pm »

There is a statute somewhere that prevents courier firms charging much more than it actually costs - and for sure it doesn't (or shouldn't) cost £11 to collect a VAT payment, they just have no incentive to be more efficient as the amount - if they become more efficient and make more profit on collecting taxes, the statute will force them to charge less.



So what costs £11? DHL have the paperwork including the sellers invoice. The value is probably inputted to the system when the transport is arranged. How does it cost £11 to trigger a text message with a link to an automated system that I pay on? Or are DHL now going to claim that their card processor charges £10 per transaction. It's stupid.
 

Offline olkipukki

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 790
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #187 on: December 28, 2020, 04:12:06 pm »
UK company selling a £30 thing to an EU customer on/after 1st Jan 2021:
£30.00 paid by German customer to UK company
£5.70 VAT (equivalent at some likely rubbish exchange rate) paid by German customer to German treasury via postal service or courier.
€6.00+ paid by German customer to postal service or courier for the service..
thing costs customer €33.30+€6.33+€6.00=~€45.63
Since you have DHL and UPS accounts, you can cover a customer headache and pay any due taxes as part of shipment arrangement, isn't?

Can any EU forum members contribute examples of buying items from outside the EU, in particular the costs and delays incurred??
Did you never buy anything from non-EU (US,China for example) as non-DDP delivery?  :o
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #188 on: December 28, 2020, 04:14:27 pm »
Did you never buy anything from non-EU (US,China for example) as non-DDP delivery?  :o


The UK are pretty crap at bothering to collect VAT/duty hence they actually got investigated by the EU..... so no, we don't really experience paying duty/VAT very often.
 

Offline olkipukki

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 790
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #189 on: December 28, 2020, 04:21:42 pm »
There is a statute somewhere that prevents courier firms charging much more than it actually costs - and for sure it doesn't (or shouldn't) cost £11 to collect a VAT payment, they just have no incentive to be more efficient as the amount - if they become more efficient and make more profit on collecting taxes, the statute will force them to charge less.
Answer: defer duty payment.
As far as I know, you don't need anymore (from 1st Jan) a financial guaranteer to open a new account...
 

Offline olkipukki

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 790
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #190 on: December 28, 2020, 04:28:35 pm »

The UK are pretty crap at bothering to collect VAT/duty hence they actually got investigated by the EU..... so no, we don't really experience paying duty/VAT very often.
Haha, a friend of my told a story: a seller "stampted" $20 goods price on a small-parcel, and sudden FX rate charge has triggered VAT collection  :palm:, so Royal Mail been happy to charge 8 (?) pounds for leaving 'We cannot delivery your parcel, VAT due here' card...  :-DD
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 04:30:23 pm by olkipukki »
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23099
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #191 on: December 28, 2020, 04:35:15 pm »
Yeah that’s about it.

That’s why I love Tayda Electronics. Order £50 of shit and it turns up with a $7 pre printed customs valuation  :-DD. The whole company is basically a big fuck you.
 

Offline fcbTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2135
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #192 on: December 28, 2020, 04:49:11 pm »
UK company selling a £30 thing to an EU customer on/after 1st Jan 2021:
£30.00 paid by German customer to UK company
£5.70 VAT (equivalent at some likely rubbish exchange rate) paid by German customer to German treasury via postal service or courier.
€6.00+ paid by German customer to postal service or courier for the service..
thing costs customer €33.30+€6.33+€6.00=~€45.63
Since you have DHL and UPS accounts, you can cover a customer headache and pay any due taxes as part of shipment arrangement, isn't?

Can any EU forum members contribute examples of buying items from outside the EU, in particular the costs and delays incurred??
Did you never buy anything from non-EU (US,China for example) as non-DDP delivery?  :o

Lower cost stuff tends to ship via post (Royal Mail) - not couriers. No method to prepay.

For items that ship via UPS/DHL we could arrange to pay the duties and taxes, but finding out what those are from UPS/DHL (even with a commodity code/HTS number) is mysterious dark art for most destination countries.

We mainly do non-DDP delivery from outside EU.  Digikey/Mouser both handle all the VAT/excise duty, so technically they are DDP.
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #193 on: December 28, 2020, 05:01:14 pm »

The UK are pretty crap at bothering to collect VAT/duty hence they actually got investigated by the EU..... so no, we don't really experience paying duty/VAT very often.
Haha, a friend of my told a story: a seller "stampted" $20 goods price on a small-parcel, and sudden FX rate charge has triggered VAT collection  :palm:, so Royal Mail been happy to charge 8 (?) pounds for leaving 'We cannot delivery your parcel, VAT due here' card...  :-DD

Royal mail are crap! their selloff was totally corrupt and they were not the struggling business that our extreme right wing government made out. They had just started to turn a profit thanks to mugs like me using them to ship goods whilst being treated like dirt. Once privatised it got even worse. It's not about the service anymore, but shareholders.

It's really simple actually the UK government need to decide how it's handled and legislate. Something along the lines of a declaration made by the sender to the carrier so that VAT can automatically be calculated (x*0.2 is a really simple calculation you know....) and send the receiver a request for payment after which the parcel can be delivered. It's a computer system no more complicated than what this forum runs on. I don't have a problem with a sensible fee like £1 but to pretend that it's a whole load of paperwork and expense is how they get away with ripping you off now.
 
The following users thanked this post: bd139

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23099
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #194 on: December 28, 2020, 05:09:58 pm »
Just fuck ‘em now. I use Hermes for anything outbound. Actually better and cheaper than RM now. I get the feeling they’re going to make a killing in Europe if they make this smooth.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #195 on: December 28, 2020, 05:12:29 pm »
Just fuck ‘em now. I use Hermes for anything outbound. Actually better and cheaper than RM now. I get the feeling they’re going to make a killing in Europe if they make this smooth.

You ever used hermes in Europe? yea that never went too well, for the amount I ship it's not worth dealing with the significant problems I would have, the margins are not there in low volumes.
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23099
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #196 on: December 28, 2020, 05:15:19 pm »
I’ve bounced a few things around without problems but certainly not a regular customer.  Generally it depends which country though. Spain and Italy have terrible service for example. Germany quite reliable.

Edit: within UK have sent 106 items in 2020 via Hermes on 2-3 day. All delivered. No problems (other than some dick who couldn’t work out how to use the HP counter he bought off me).
 

Offline fcbTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2135
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #197 on: December 28, 2020, 05:17:31 pm »
No company sets a goal to be 'crap' Simon - Royal Mail included. Don't use them if you think they are mugging you off.

We've been experimenting with MyHermes this year to ship low cost stuff to UK customers and they have been excellent so far.
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline fcbTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2135
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #198 on: December 28, 2020, 05:23:01 pm »
We've only used Hermes for UK so far, but we've been able to upload shipping infomation in CSV format and that has made it really painless.

Be interesting to ship some stuff out via Hermes into Europe after 1st Jan 2021 and see how they handle the VAT - could be a solution..?
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #199 on: December 28, 2020, 05:23:51 pm »
No company sets a goal to be 'crap' Simon - Royal Mail included. Don't use them if you think they are mugging you off.

We've been experimenting with MyHermes this year to ship low cost stuff to UK customers and they have been excellent so far.

The problem with myhermes like others is that you are relying on a bunch of people being paid a pitence, often mums doing deliveries whilst the children are at school. The whole operation is no as safe in my mind than it is with RM. RM are awful for the money they charge but so far I have has less problems.

No companies don't set out to be crap, so long as they are making a profit they don't give a toss, if 80% of customers are happy the 20% that are not can go screw themselves, and yes that is a business philosophy. When you are that large you can afford to take such a dim view of your customers satisfaction. They are a private company like any other and the number 1 goal is to make money and so long as people keep coming back they will. They are cheaper than good couriers and whoever is cheaper than them are not always very good.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf