Author Topic: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers  (Read 39934 times)

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Offline coppice

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #225 on: January 02, 2021, 05:33:41 pm »
It's slippery and fairly inevitable slope we are on, and made even more likely by BREXIT.

Yep, dark moment is coming, watch the video at the link I pointed above, where near at the end where the reporter Nick reported on what he got when interviewed a lady which has children crying on these issue, must be a lot of really stressful people there.  :'(
As Thomas Sowell observed of the current generation "The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling.". Huge numbers are voting on long term decisions based on how they feel today. Those still able and inclined to think have little solid information on which to base their thinking, as the media mostly presents the public with more feelings, and little hard information. Most people in the media couldn't even present hard information, as they show day after day a lack of understanding of basics statistical processes - e.g. the shocking news that schools are now performing so poorly that around half are below average. We should have been able to laugh at the idiot reporter who said that as an anomaly, but its actually business as usual in the media.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #226 on: January 02, 2021, 05:49:40 pm »
Exactly that. Measuring what people believe is true was a job of mine once. There is a lot of parity with media and a lot of disparity with fact. I digress but I noped out of that place fairly quickly and it became an instrument of today’s shitshow.

Thinking is hard so people subcontract it out to the lowest bidder. That’s usually the gutter press.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #227 on: January 02, 2021, 06:34:13 pm »
As Thomas Sowell observed of the current generation "The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling.".

No he didn't. He wrote that in "Inside American Education" in 1993. That's 27 years ago and about a previous generation. It might have been true then, it might be true now, but it wasn't this current generation he was talking about.

Personally I'd take the opinions of someone who has spent so much of their life working at American conservative think tanks with a pinch of salt, a pithy sounding quotation lends the thinking of the quoted a respectability that perhaps it is not due. Ironically, that quotation engages only with feelings, it offers no logic for, nor any evidence for its stated position.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #228 on: January 02, 2021, 06:56:53 pm »
There's a good chance that if Scotland gets another 'once-in-a-generation' vote on independance soon they'll vote to leave the Union.

The actual name for the Tories is the "Conservative and Unionist Party", which tells you how much opposistion there will be to a vote in Northern Ireland on reuniting with Ireland (for those not familar with British politics the Unionist's want to remain in the United Kingdom and not 'reUNITE' with Ireland).

It's slippery and fairly inevitable slope we are on, and made even more likely by BREXIT.

And once the United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) has lost NI, all the .uk URLs will be incorrect/obsolete. OK, so we could flip to .gb URLs, but what happens if Scotland seceeds?

Mind you, I think it is unlikely that Scotland would be readily admitted to the EU: Spain would veto it lest the Catalans be emboldened.

Re-uniting the bits of Ireland should be possible from the EU perspective, though, just as it was with the bits of Germany.
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Offline bd139

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #229 on: January 02, 2021, 06:59:24 pm »
Don’t even go there. I had to shoot my .eu domain a while back  :-DD
 

Offline dave j

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #230 on: January 02, 2021, 07:22:05 pm »
Mind you, I think it is unlikely that Scotland would be readily admitted to the EU: Spain would veto it lest the Catalans be emboldened.
That's not Spain's position:
Quote
And other senior figures in Spain are positively ruling out a knee-jerk veto. Ms Cherry mentioned Esteban Pons, a Member of the European Parliament representing Spain’s ruling party. Asked about a Spanish veto last week, he told the BBC:

“No because if you are thinking about Catalonia the situation is very very very different to the Scottish situation."

Other political figures in Spain say the same: while Spain wouldn’t allow Scotland to simply remain in, an application to rejoin would be considered.
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Offline coppice

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #231 on: January 02, 2021, 07:42:01 pm »
As Thomas Sowell observed of the current generation "The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling.".
No he didn't. He wrote that in "Inside American Education" in 1993. That's 27 years ago and about a previous generation. It might have been true then, it might be true now, but it wasn't this current generation he was talking about.
Interesting interpretation of generation. The people being educated in the early 90s are now the core of the voting public.

Personally I'd take the opinions of someone who has spent so much of their life working at American conservative think tanks with a pinch of salt, a pithy sounding quotation lends the thinking of the quoted a respectability that perhaps it is not due. Ironically, that quotation engages only with feelings, it offers no logic for, nor any evidence for its stated position.
His writings contain a lot of data. Something you don't see much of in support of most of the pithy quotes of 2020. I think people overrate Thomas Sowell. His great weakness is a one size fits all approach to analysis. He hits the mark in many cases though, and supports his ideas with actual data.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #232 on: January 02, 2021, 07:55:24 pm »
The problem is that people are not prepared to accept that they do not know everything and so once their mind is made up that is it. I think we will soon discover how "free" we are and just how much "less" (more) regulation hinderance we will have. And certainly the EU will get the blame when it is in fact just how things actually work. The UK government in a political penis waving exercise are introducing the UKCA mark, this is pointless, it means that anything made and sold in the UK and sold to the EU will have to be certified twice and it means that imports that do not abide by the UKCA mark presumably will not be accepted. So far from reducing regulation it is the British government that is introducing more regulation. What they really meant when they said we could be more competitive was that they wanted to trash all standards relating to worker rights, safety and the environment except they can't now so the UKCA mark will just be a duplication of the CE mark. Of course this is lost to the man on the street that just wants to know who to blame so long as it's not his side.
 
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Offline fcbTopic starter

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #233 on: January 02, 2021, 08:38:42 pm »
So yesterday as I was deleting all the VAT calculations on my w/s and simplifying pricing to "non-UK” and “UK only" - I felt like I was hit by a huge wave - like a bereavement.

I won’t be rude about BREXITEERS, we lost and that’s democracy – I just can’t figure out how things will be better out of Europe??

Anyhow, back to browsing Leggett Immobilier.
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #234 on: January 02, 2021, 08:47:08 pm »
The problem is that people are not prepared to accept that they do not know everything and so once their mind is made up that is it. I think we will soon discover how "free" we are and just how much "less" (more) regulation hinderance we will have. And certainly the EU will get the blame when it is in fact just how things actually work. The UK government in a political penis waving exercise are introducing the UKCA mark, this is pointless, it means that anything made and sold in the UK and sold to the EU will have to be certified twice and it means that imports that do not abide by the UKCA mark presumably will not be accepted. So far from reducing regulation it is the British government that is introducing more regulation. What they really meant when they said we could be more competitive was that they wanted to trash all standards relating to worker rights, safety and the environment except they can't now so the UKCA mark will just be a duplication of the CE mark. Of course this is lost to the man on the street that just wants to know who to blame so long as it's not his side.

The whole concept of democracy has some serious flaws, which are being exploited mercilessly these days.  (It is still probably just about the least bad of the possible political systems, but we probably need for there to be consequences for intentionally attempting to break the system for political advantage.  Also, I don't think politicians lying should fall in the category of "free speech").
 
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Offline S. Petrukhin

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #235 on: January 02, 2021, 09:30:52 pm »
Don’t even go there. I had to shoot my .eu domain a while back  :-DD

Many people use the domain .su (Soviet Union)...  :)
And sorry for my English.
 

Offline S. Petrukhin

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #236 on: January 02, 2021, 09:45:12 pm »
The problem is that people are not prepared to accept that they do not know everything and so once their mind is made up that is it. I think we will soon discover how "free" we are and just how much "less" (more) regulation hinderance we will have. And certainly the EU will get the blame when it is in fact just how things actually work. The UK government in a political penis waving exercise are introducing the UKCA mark, this is pointless, it means that anything made and sold in the UK and sold to the EU will have to be certified twice and it means that imports that do not abide by the UKCA mark presumably will not be accepted. So far from reducing regulation it is the British government that is introducing more regulation. What they really meant when they said we could be more competitive was that they wanted to trash all standards relating to worker rights, safety and the environment except they can't now so the UKCA mark will just be a duplication of the CE mark. Of course this is lost to the man on the street that just wants to know who to blame so long as it's not his side.

The whole concept of democracy has some serious flaws, which are being exploited mercilessly these days.  (It is still probably just about the least bad of the possible political systems, but we probably need for there to be consequences for intentionally attempting to break the system for political advantage.  Also, I don't think politicians lying should fall in the category of "free speech").

Golden words! Democracy is an opportunity for politicians not to answer for anything: you have freedom - think about yourself. The price of freedom is the constant vigilance. W. Churchill (if I am not mistaken).

You have been eaten up in Europe by bureaucrats and politicians, ambitions or the influence of money bags on them. In the same way as previously, these useless people weakened the Soviet Union. It seems to me that the politicians of Europe are more inventing problems, leading people by the nose just to be in office and show their needed. This is helped by large corporations to get more money out of people.

Maybe my opinion is wrong, but this is an outside view.
And sorry for my English.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #237 on: January 02, 2021, 10:38:36 pm »
The problem is that people are not prepared to accept that they do not know everything and so once their mind is made up that is it. I think we will soon discover how "free" we are and just how much "less" (more) regulation hinderance we will have. And certainly the EU will get the blame when it is in fact just how things actually work. The UK government in a political penis waving exercise are introducing the UKCA mark, this is pointless, it means that anything made and sold in the UK and sold to the EU will have to be certified twice and it means that imports that do not abide by the UKCA mark presumably will not be accepted. So far from reducing regulation it is the British government that is introducing more regulation. What they really meant when they said we could be more competitive was that they wanted to trash all standards relating to worker rights, safety and the environment except they can't now so the UKCA mark will just be a duplication of the CE mark. Of course this is lost to the man on the street that just wants to know who to blame so long as it's not his side.

The whole concept of democracy has some serious flaws, which are being exploited mercilessly these days.  (It is still probably just about the least bad of the possible political systems, but we probably need for there to be consequences for intentionally attempting to break the system for political advantage.  Also, I don't think politicians lying should fall in the category of "free speech").
Yes and no. One of the problems I see is that some 'democratic' systems (like in the US and the UK) are setup to keep the power concentrated to a few people. Democracy works better when there are a multitude of parties and thus views at the helm. IOW: there should not be absolute power resting on a single person or party.
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Offline IanJ

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #238 on: January 02, 2021, 11:33:07 pm »
So yesterday as I was deleting all the VAT calculations on my w/s and simplifying pricing to "non-UK” and “UK only" - I felt like I was hit by a huge wave - like a bereavement.

I won’t be rude about BREXITEERS, we lost and that’s democracy – I just can’t figure out how things will be better out of Europe??

Anyhow, back to browsing Leggett Immobilier.

Well, I am certainly no expert......there, thats it out of the way!

I found myself changing the vat rules in my own online shop on the 31st ahead of new years day.........and for me it was weirdly satisfying as I have always hated the EU. Now, I dont pretend life will be better now, but for me I like the change.....I couldn't stand it any more!, lots of reasons least of all the complicated VAT rules being a LTD company.
Fortune favours the brave as they say, so we'll see what happens going forward.
I'm Scottish and voted for independence, but wanted out the EU........oh dear, thats not on Sturgeons agenda.........we'll see!......just as long as they don't take my soldering iron off me....:)
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #239 on: January 02, 2021, 11:56:45 pm »
So yesterday as I was deleting all the VAT calculations on my w/s and simplifying pricing to "non-UK” and “UK only" - I felt like I was hit by a huge wave - like a bereavement.

I won’t be rude about BREXITEERS, we lost and that’s democracy – I just can’t figure out how things will be better out of Europe??

Anyhow, back to browsing Leggett Immobilier.

Well, I am certainly no expert......there, thats it out of the way!

I found myself changing the vat rules in my own online shop on the 31st ahead of new years day.........and for me it was weirdly satisfying as I have always hated the EU. Now, I dont pretend life will be better now, but for me I like the change.....I couldn't stand it any more!, lots of reasons least of all the complicated VAT rules being a LTD company.
Fortune favours the brave as they say, so we'll see what happens going forward.
I'm Scottish and voted for independence, but wanted out the EU........oh dear, thats not on Sturgeons agenda.........we'll see!......just as long as they don't take my soldering iron off me....:)
Ian.


This stuff has obviously been done to death for many years now, but - when all is said and done - I think if the EU didn't exist to balance all the needs and wants of the 27 European countries, something very close to it would have to be invented - otherwise, the whole continent would end up with eternal bickering like we see inside the UK now.  I think Continental Europeans are generally far more aware of this than British people.  I also think the more "cosmopolitan" and mobile you are, the more benefit you have from EU citizenship.  If you live in one of the Continental European countries, it is far more natural to hop across the border to the next country for whatever reason - so freedom of movement is a huge plus.


It is what it is.   History doesn't stop here...   will be interesting to see what path Scotland chooses.  Looking at it from the outside, the Scottish government seems considerably less crazy than the Westminster lot, but I'm too far away from it to really say anything sensible about it...

« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 11:58:19 pm by SilverSolder »
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #240 on: January 03, 2021, 09:30:10 am »
I'm Scottish and voted for independence, but wanted out the EU........oh dear, thats not on Sturgeons agenda..

I guess in near term, Sturgeon's agenda is for independence, then the EU matter for later ? Or .. its a mixed bag complicated situation among Scottish that want independence ?

Offline Zero999

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #241 on: January 03, 2021, 11:07:56 am »
Northern Ireland should just join the Republic, eventually. It's silly for them to be two separate countries.

I don't see the point in Scotland leaving the UK. A border between the two countries will only cause disruption and trouble.

So far, Brexit hasn't been as bad as the mainstream media said it would be, but it's not good either. I've noticed TME have temporally stopped dealing with individual UK customers.
https://www.tme.eu/gb/information-bar/42836/brexit-informationUK
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #242 on: January 03, 2021, 11:43:44 am »
Northern Ireland should just join the Republic, eventually. It's silly for them to be two separate countries.

I don't see the point in Scotland leaving the UK. A border between the two countries will only cause disruption and trouble.

Which ever sides, I guess that year 2021 is the "right" timing and riding on the massive momentum that the separatists have been waiting for so long, isn't it ?
 
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Offline fcbTopic starter

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #243 on: January 03, 2021, 11:47:53 am »
So far, Brexit hasn't been as bad as the mainstream media said it would be, but it's not good either. I've noticed TME have temporally stopped dealing with individual UK customers.
https://www.tme.eu/gb/information-bar/42836/brexit-informationUK
TME have an office in the UK, invoice in GBP, have a UK registered Ltd company, bank account, VAT number and UK based rep (whom I've spoken with before - nice chap) - so dealing with them *should* be as easy as dealing with any UK company. I'm placing an order next week with them, so we'll see how smoothly that goes.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 11:54:00 am by fcb »
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Offline coppice

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #244 on: January 03, 2021, 02:58:19 pm »
The whole concept of democracy has some serious flaws, which are being exploited mercilessly these days.  (It is still probably just about the least bad of the possible political systems, but we probably need for there to be consequences for intentionally attempting to break the system for political advantage.  Also, I don't think politicians lying should fall in the category of "free speech").
The idea that you might be able to ban lies in public life is predicated, consciously or unconsciously, on there being some kind of benevolent proactive God who can look down and tell humanity what is right. The need for a truly independent arbiter, which doesn't exist in the real world, is the key reason so many ideas for running a society fail. Systems that work reasonably well are the ones that have some amount of self correction inherent in them. They can still go off the rails, but less often.

Some lies are so obvious and blatant, they should be incontrovertible. However, in tribal societies people can't even agree what "woman" means any more.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #245 on: January 03, 2021, 03:36:52 pm »
The whole concept of democracy has some serious flaws, which are being exploited mercilessly these days.  (It is still probably just about the least bad of the possible political systems, but we probably need for there to be consequences for intentionally attempting to break the system for political advantage.  Also, I don't think politicians lying should fall in the category of "free speech").
The idea that you might be able to ban lies in public life is predicated, consciously or unconsciously, on there being some kind of benevolent proactive God who can look down and tell humanity what is right. The need for a truly independent arbiter, which doesn't exist in the real world, is the key reason so many ideas for running a society fail. Systems that work reasonably well are the ones that have some amount of self correction inherent in them. They can still go off the rails, but less often.

Some lies are so obvious and blatant, they should be incontrovertible. However, in tribal societies people can't even agree what "woman" means any more.


To start somewhere, we could say that a statement that is provably untrue is a "lie".  For example, claiming that there was cheating during an election without evidence to back it up.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #246 on: January 03, 2021, 03:41:33 pm »
The whole concept of democracy has some serious flaws, which are being exploited mercilessly these days.  (It is still probably just about the least bad of the possible political systems, but we probably need for there to be consequences for intentionally attempting to break the system for political advantage.  Also, I don't think politicians lying should fall in the category of "free speech").
The idea that you might be able to ban lies in public life is predicated, consciously or unconsciously, on there being some kind of benevolent proactive God who can look down and tell humanity what is right. The need for a truly independent arbiter, which doesn't exist in the real world, is the key reason so many ideas for running a society fail. Systems that work reasonably well are the ones that have some amount of self correction inherent in them. They can still go off the rails, but less often.

Some lies are so obvious and blatant, they should be incontrovertible. However, in tribal societies people can't even agree what "woman" means any more.

To start somewhere, we could say that a statement that is provably untrue is a "lie".  For example, claiming that there was cheating during an election without evidence to back it up.
That's an odd one to choose. There is lots of evidence, and sworn testimony. Maybe its all fake, but not investigating its veracity in a democracy is bizarre. Most of the court cases were thrown out due to a lack of standing, not because the evidence was successfully refuted.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #247 on: January 03, 2021, 04:04:17 pm »
The whole concept of democracy has some serious flaws, which are being exploited mercilessly these days.  (It is still probably just about the least bad of the possible political systems, but we probably need for there to be consequences for intentionally attempting to break the system for political advantage.  Also, I don't think politicians lying should fall in the category of "free speech").
The idea that you might be able to ban lies in public life is predicated, consciously or unconsciously, on there being some kind of benevolent proactive God who can look down and tell humanity what is right. The need for a truly independent arbiter, which doesn't exist in the real world, is the key reason so many ideas for running a society fail. Systems that work reasonably well are the ones that have some amount of self correction inherent in them. They can still go off the rails, but less often.

Some lies are so obvious and blatant, they should be incontrovertible. However, in tribal societies people can't even agree what "woman" means any more.

To start somewhere, we could say that a statement that is provably untrue is a "lie".  For example, claiming that there was cheating during an election without evidence to back it up.
That's an odd one to choose. There is lots of evidence, and sworn testimony. Maybe its all fake, but not investigating its veracity in a democracy is bizarre. Most of the court cases were thrown out due to a lack of standing, not because the evidence was successfully refuted.


Well, I've been following this in the press and all accusations are - at best - minor irregularities like you would expect with any human activity, including the street in front of your house (do everyone drive perfectly?  do they drive "good enough"?).

So, if you want to, you could pick out jaywalkers and drivers speeding by 5mph to prove that lawlessness is rife on the streets,  and then run for election based on improving law and order.

At some point in my life, I understood that law enforcement is never going to be perfect...  the best we can do is go after the those cases that cause harm.  If you apply that standard to the evidence and testimony we have seen regarding election cheating, there really isn't anything there as far as I have seen.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #248 on: January 03, 2021, 04:14:18 pm »
The whole concept of democracy has some serious flaws, which are being exploited mercilessly these days.  (It is still probably just about the least bad of the possible political systems, but we probably need for there to be consequences for intentionally attempting to break the system for political advantage.  Also, I don't think politicians lying should fall in the category of "free speech").
The idea that you might be able to ban lies in public life is predicated, consciously or unconsciously, on there being some kind of benevolent proactive God who can look down and tell humanity what is right. The need for a truly independent arbiter, which doesn't exist in the real world, is the key reason so many ideas for running a society fail. Systems that work reasonably well are the ones that have some amount of self correction inherent in them. They can still go off the rails, but less often.

Some lies are so obvious and blatant, they should be incontrovertible. However, in tribal societies people can't even agree what "woman" means any more.

You're confusing opinion, for which one would need an independent arbiter if one was insistent on assigning a truth value to an opinion, with fact. Facts are verifiable, opinions are not. Whether someone has two X chromosomes and is therefore biologically female is a fact and is relatively easily proven one way or another, whether someone belongs to the gender set assigned the label "woman" is a social construct and therefore a matter of opinion or convention.

One does not actually need any fancy philosophy or to delve into the depths of epistemology to know the difference between truth and a lie. Most of us learned the difference at our mother's knee and any attempt to argue that it's difficult, with all the facts available, to distinguish a lie from an opinion or a bit of rhetoric is mere sophistry. Lying is when one deliberately presents something as the truth while knowing or believing it to be untrue, or when one presents something that is in itself strictly true while deliberately withholding information that one knows would invalidate the sense of what one is claiming or implying to be true (the lawyer's lie).

I think you were really trying to head in the direction of "doing the right thing" which is much broader than mere lying, that indeed does need an independent arbiter and in society we have assigned that rôle to "the rule of law". That lies and other misbehaviour in public life are not effectively punished is one of the the most corrosive things in society today.  If Dominic Cummings can be a scofflaw with impunity why should anybody else obey the rules?
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #249 on: January 03, 2021, 04:33:32 pm »
You're confusing opinion, for which one would need an independent arbiter if one was insistent on assigning a truth value to an opinion, with fact. Facts are verifiable, opinions are not. Whether someone has two X chromosomes and is therefore biologically female is a fact and is relatively easily proven one way or another, whether someone belongs to the gender set assigned the label "woman" is a social construct and therefore a matter of opinion or convention.
Some facts are easy to verify, like 2+2=4. This doesn't stop people now trying to argue that 2+2 can equal 5. Some facts are hard to verify. Few would argue that a ginger tom in someone's lounge, or a lion, is a cat. Around the periphery of what constitutes a cat the experts do argue. For example. do they have to be able to interbreed to all be cats? Maths, physics and chemistry largely have easy to verify truth claims. Most things have a socially constructed element to them, like "cat", and some concepts are 100% socially constructed. Even in physics we have socially constructed concepts, like colour, that cause endless disagreements. As soon as physics moves from a hard mathematical description to a looser textual one truth starts to get a little dodgy. People find truth claims quite difficult to agree on for most things.
 


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