Author Topic: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers  (Read 40018 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9821
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2020, 04:37:38 pm »
All well run negotiations end up as a game of chicken near the final deadline. The UK parliament tried to wreck Britain's ability to negotiate by committing them to definitely agreeing on a deal. How can anyone negotiate when they know the other side's hands are tied? I don't think that is because they are traitorous or malicious. Its just that parliament is full of people who have never done a days real work in their lives, and have never had to negotiate anything.
The disparity between what the EU and the UK stand to lose without a deal means playing chicken is a fool's errant. To negotiate you need leverage and the UK had little and stupid games reduced it even further. When threatening French fishermen is what you have left things aren't going your way.  :(
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 04:46:12 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2020, 04:43:12 pm »
The situation in the UK is the very definition of CLUSTERFUCK https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/clusterfuck

And minutes by minutes, its like you Brits are deliberately increasing the tension, instead of trying to dilute it, really don't understand why ?  :-//

Example -> ... British naval forces will be deployed from January 1 to prevent illegal French fishing in our waters

Deploying the navy plays well with a certain demographic in England - the same demographic that is targeted by Murdoch's fine publications.

Juncker said it best, right after the referendum: "If you over years, if not decades, tell citizens that something is wrong with the EU, that the EU is too technocratic, too bureaucratic, you cannot be taken by surprise if voters believe you."

 
The following users thanked this post: I wanted a rude username

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10031
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2020, 04:47:04 pm »
All well run negotiations end up as a game of chicken near the final deadline. The UK parliament tried to wreck Britain's ability to negotiate by committing them to definitely agreeing on a deal. How can anyone negotiate when they know the other side's hands are tied? I don't think that is because they are traitorous or malicious. Its just that parliament is full of people who have never done a days real work in their lives, and have never had to negotiate anything.
The disparity between what the EU and the UK may lose without a deal means playing chicken is a fool's errant. To negotiate you need leverage and the UK had little and stupid games reduced it even further. When threatening French fishermen is what you have left things aren't going your way.  :(
That's the same rhetoric I've heard around every negotiation I've been involved with. The larger party clearly has things to lose if they are bothering to negotiate with the smaller. The number of a sales people with Tourettes I've seen wreck the profitability of a deal with their uncontrollable urge to say "we'll cut the price" is really sad.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7043
  • Country: nl
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2020, 04:49:25 pm »
The disparity between what the EU and the UK stand to lose without a deal means playing chicken is a fool's errant.

In a game of chicken it's not about what you have to lose, but about force of will ... as long as the other party has something to lose and believes you will not budge, then it is rational for him to do so.

In a game of chicken the least rational can win, even if he has more to lose.
 
The following users thanked this post: NivagSwerdna

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2020, 04:49:32 pm »
Why do these crazy governments appear everywhere, constantly fighting and pitting people against each other? That they don't live in peace? All these borders, possessions, the army - these are the wild times of the past. After all, it is good to be in a single Union without borders, without customs, with the same money. Probably, European officials have tortured everyone with their mediocrity and uselessness - they are paid money but they do nothing but stupid shows about enemies all around. I know this very well from the structure of the USSR.

Now we have a union of several countries: Belarus, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan = Eurasian Economic Community. We live in one country in past, now we are all independent countries, each has its own currency and its own power, but we have no borders, we share the same laws to a large extent. This is very convenient: I can safely go to Minsk and even live there without fear of ignorance of the law, I can safely sell products in any country as well as at home. There is some tiny shared power, but it is invisible, does not interfere with anyone, does not command anyone, only coordinates various interactions. Yes, and all under the protection of the Russian army. Imagine all the countries in such a Union.

This kind of thing is probably the long term future of all human society on Earth - but there are many people for whom this is a big mental leap and they will resist it and/or feel very uncomfortable with it for many generations still.

 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2020, 04:52:36 pm »
All well run negotiations end up as a game of chicken near the final deadline. The UK parliament tried to wreck Britain's ability to negotiate by committing them to definitely agreeing on a deal. How can anyone negotiate when they know the other side's hands are tied? I don't think that is because they are traitorous or malicious. Its just that parliament is full of people who have never done a days real work in their lives, and have never had to negotiate anything.
The disparity between what the EU and the UK may lose without a deal means playing chicken is a fool's errant. To negotiate you need leverage and the UK had little and stupid games reduced it even further. When threatening French fishermen is what you have left things aren't going your way.  :(
That's the same rhetoric I've heard around every negotiation I've been involved with. The larger party clearly has things to lose if they are bothering to negotiate with the smaller. The number of a sales people with Tourettes I've seen wreck the profitability of a deal with their uncontrollable urge to say "we'll cut the price" is really sad.

Exactly, and those are precisely the kind of people we don't want in the Single Market to create a race to the bottom.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9821
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2020, 04:58:46 pm »
In a game of chicken it's not about what you have to lose, but about force of will ... as long as the other party has something to lose and believes you will not budge, then it is rational for him to do so.

In a game of chicken the least rational can win, even if he has more to lose.
Hence the threats adressed at French fishermen. The UK knows at this point the EU is unlikely to budge. The only real incentive the EU seems to have is to show exiting the union doesn't come with special treatment and that's no help.
 

Offline BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7549
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2020, 05:03:32 pm »
And minutes by minutes, its like you Brits are deliberately increasing the tension, instead of trying to dilute it, really don't understand why ?  :-//

Example -> ... British naval forces will be deployed from January 1 to prevent illegal French fishing in our waters
I suspect it's a desperate power play in the hopes of getting the EU to move before the time runs out. I don't think there are very many options left so making a lot of noise in the hopes the EU will budge is all one can do. It's probably also some window dressing for the folks at home to show a Brexit means independence. Anything to distract from what looks to be a disaster in the making as a few French fishermen aren't a threat to Britain's future.

At last minutes of dealing something, the last thing you want is to show your weakness in form of desperation. This is universal knowledge and you don't need to master art of dealing/bargaining to know that.

Also when dealing/bargaining, you are alone (UK) facing the mobs (EU), at last minute, again, the last thing you want to do is to make a threat or even a gesture of hostility towards one of the big member of the mobs (France) ... c'mon ...  :palm:

PS :
Unless this is the plan to turn all of this into a bad sitcom ... news headlines ... NATO member attacking NATO member .... and Putin will live happily ever after.  :-DD
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 05:12:14 pm by BravoV »
 

Offline CJay

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4136
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2020, 05:26:29 pm »
The situation in the UK is the very definition of CLUSTERFUCK https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/clusterfuck

And minutes by minutes, its like you Brits are deliberately increasing the tension, instead of trying to dilute it, really don't understand why ?  :-//

Example -> ... British naval forces will be deployed from January 1 to prevent illegal French fishing in our waters

It's a load of rubbish, an empty threat that's already being discredited by people in the idiot Johnson's own party:

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-irresponsible-threat-to-deploy-navy-ships-criticised-amid-standoff-over-uk-eu-trade-deal-12158759

He's just playing to the cheap seats so when it all falls apart tomorrow he can come back home and claim he tried to play it tough and that it was really all his idea to not get a deal but the big bad EU bullied him, that'll make him some sort of hero to the kind of moron who still believes Brexit will be some sort of glorious victory over 'them foreigners'.

 
The following users thanked this post: SilverSolder

Offline S. Petrukhin

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1273
  • Country: ru
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2020, 05:36:49 pm »
I read about brexit here and I am more and more convinced that the EU was needed first of all so that the Europeans would not fight again.  :)
Guys from England, but who chose Johnson? You didn't participate in this?
And sorry for my English.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7043
  • Country: nl
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2020, 05:40:28 pm »
He's just playing to the cheap seats so when it all falls apart tomorrow he can come back home and claim he tried to play it tough and that it was really all his idea to not get a deal but the big bad EU bullied him

Though they do it more gracefully, the EU is no different. They were never going to allow a negotiated true Brexit, they were always planning to impose their power through the back door of the ECJ and level playing field provision.

It was all just an useless dishonest dance, which could have worked on May but was a lost cause with Johnson. In the end its just some jockying for PR between a bunch of graceful liars and a blustering populist.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 05:47:05 pm by Marco »
 

Offline fcbTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2135
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2020, 05:53:34 pm »
Guys from England, but who chose Johnson? You didn't participate in this?
Democracy.
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline Zero999

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 20357
  • Country: gb
  • 0999
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2020, 05:59:36 pm »
Why do these crazy governments appear everywhere, constantly fighting and pitting people against each other? That they don't live in peace? All these borders, possessions, the army - these are the wild times of the past. After all, it is good to be in a single Union without borders, without customs, with the same money. Probably, European officials have tortured everyone with their mediocrity and uselessness - they are paid money but they do nothing but stupid shows about enemies all around. I know this very well from the structure of the USSR.

Now we have a union of several countries: Belarus, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan = Eurasian Economic Community. We live in one country in past, now we are all independent countries, each has its own currency and its own power, but we have no borders, we share the same laws to a large extent. This is very convenient: I can safely go to Minsk and even live there without fear of ignorance of the law, I can safely sell products in any country as well as at home. There is some tiny shared power, but it is invisible, does not interfere with anyone, does not command anyone, only coordinates various interactions. Yes, and all under the protection of the Russian army. Imagine all the countries in such a Union.
The EU is quite different from the USSR, which was an empire, gained through conquest, much like the British Empire. The member states of the EU all agreed to join, of their own free will. They weren't forced join, as was the case with the British Empire, or Russian Empire, which went on the be the USSR.

Many countries sharing the the same rules and currency brings a range of benefits, regarding trade and freedom, but it also has downsides too. Getting the EU to change a certain rule is challenging, because it has to be agreed between all member states, which can result in unnecessary delays. A classic example is the COVID-19 vaccine, which was swiftly approved by the UK, but will take awhile for the EU to agree on it. The same rules/currency are only any good when all states have similar levels of wealth and rule of law. The UK is more wealthy and has better rule of law, than many Eastern European EU states, so faces a lot of immigration from there and follows the EU laws more strictly. Immigration is not always a bad thing, but it's one of the reasons why many voted to leave.

In my opinion, the EU expanded too quickly. They allowed poorer, Eastern European countries to join too quickly. The reason for this is because they wanted to lessen Russia's influence, over Eastern Europe, which has caused trouble in some places, such as Ukraine.

I largely agree that unions of states and trade agreements are good things, but for practical reasons, only strong unions should exist between countries with similar enough levels of prosperity, rule of law and culture. States with larger gaps in wealth and rule of law can have trade agreements, but they should be weaker.

I read about brexit here and I am more and more convinced that the EU was needed first of all so that the Europeans would not fight again.  :)
Guys from England, but who chose Johnson? You didn't participate in this?
Yes, the original intention for having the EU was to put an end to war. The problem is the war has faded from living memory and the EU has engaged in feature creep.

I did not vote for Brexit. I backed remain. One of the problems is the vote was won by a small margin. Taking into account for the fact not everyone voted, most of the people in the UK didn't vote to leave. There should have been a clause in the referendum stating that, Brexit would only occur if the majority of those who were eligible, voted to leave. Unfortunately, given that there was no such clause, we must leave the EU and not just in name only, as some politicians want. It's the only way to stop the government from losing any more trust, than it already has.
 

Offline S. Petrukhin

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1273
  • Country: ru
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2020, 06:13:30 pm »
I regret that the EU has accumulated problems and they are so acute.

This is bad for us, and it is good for us to have a strong, stable, calm Europe. And from a pragmatic point of view, we need European consumption of goods, we need European goods.

And the destiny of people who will be bad is also sad...
And sorry for my English.
 

Offline CJay

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4136
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2020, 06:30:01 pm »
He's just playing to the cheap seats so when it all falls apart tomorrow he can come back home and claim he tried to play it tough and that it was really all his idea to not get a deal but the big bad EU bullied him

Though they do it more gracefully, the EU is no different. They were never going to allow a negotiated true Brexit, they were always planning to impose their power through the back door of the ECJ and level playing field provision.

It was all just an useless dishonest dance, which could have worked on May but was a lost cause with Johnson. In the end its just some jockying for PR between a bunch of graceful liars and a blustering populist.

TBH, from my seat in the UK it looks to me like the EU have had the upper hand all along, their negotiating position hasn't really changed but our idiot government has shifted and even gone back on things it's promised so often it's difficult to keep up.

The only real constant is the largely symbolic, minority industry of fishing which is likely to be crippled by Brexit because a huge portion of the business relies on being able to trade freely with the EU.

Blustering populist is a generous description of Johnson, mine is likely to get me a forum ban.
 
The following users thanked this post: SilverSolder

Online themadhippy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3264
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2020, 06:30:40 pm »
Quote
One of the problems is the vote was won by a small margin. Taking into account for the fact not everyone voted, most of the people in the UK didn't vote to leave. There should have been a clause in the referendum stating that, Brexit would only occur if the majority of those who were eligible, voted to leave. Unfortunately, given that there was no such clause, we must leave the EU and not just in name only, as some politicians want. It's the only way to stop the government from losing any more trust, than it already has.
There was a higher turnout for the brexit vote at 72.2%, than  any general election since 1992
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10031
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2020, 06:32:43 pm »
In my opinion, the EU expanded too quickly. They allowed poorer, Eastern European countries to join too quickly. The reason for this is because they wanted to lessen Russia's influence, over Eastern Europe, which has caused trouble in some places, such as Ukraine.
I think the key problem with the EU is that national governments love their own parochial power too much. They allowed the formation of a democratically elected European Parliament, and quite reasonably gave it very limited initial powers. However, their reluctance to let its power grow steadily has put more and more power in the hands of unelected bodies operating in parallel. So, we are now see the people of the EU are in a position of expanding authoritarian rule.

Personally, I think its irrelevant whether Britain is in or out of the EU. The Euro tying interest rates together between the most successful and least successful parts of Europe is causing such tensions that it is, ironically, only the difficulty of freeing themselves from the Euro that is keep several of its members from joining the UK on an exit route.

 
The following users thanked this post: bd139

Offline CJay

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4136
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2020, 06:34:47 pm »
Many countries sharing the the same rules and currency brings a range of benefits, regarding trade and freedom, but it also has downsides too. Getting the EU to change a certain rule is challenging, because it has to be agreed between all member states, which can result in unnecessary delays. A classic example is the COVID-19 vaccine, which was swiftly approved by the UK, but will take awhile for the EU to agree on it.

EU law allows individual member states to give emergency approval for a drug which is precisely how we managed to approve the COVID vaccine as we're still in the transition period and subject to the very EU laws our government have said would prevent us approving the vaccine's use.

It's yet more lies and bluster from our own government.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 06:42:21 pm by CJay »
 

Offline CJay

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4136
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2020, 06:38:17 pm »
Quote
One of the problems is the vote was won by a small margin. Taking into account for the fact not everyone voted, most of the people in the UK didn't vote to leave. There should have been a clause in the referendum stating that, Brexit would only occur if the majority of those who were eligible, voted to leave. Unfortunately, given that there was no such clause, we must leave the EU and not just in name only, as some politicians want. It's the only way to stop the government from losing any more trust, than it already has.
There was a higher turnout for the brexit vote at 72.2%, than  any general election since 1992

The margin was still small, that's fact, a large turnout just means more people voted, it doesn't give more or less of a mandate.

 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2020, 06:49:01 pm »
Guys from England, but who chose Johnson? You didn't participate in this?
Democracy.

"Civilization, in fact, grows more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary."
-- HL Mencken - In Defense of Women, 1918
 
The following users thanked this post: S. Petrukhin

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10031
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2020, 06:49:36 pm »
The margin was still small, that's fact, a large turnout just means more people voted, it doesn't give more or less of a mandate.
This is nonsense. A big margin on a low turnout has more to do with how much one side motivated its partisans to be bothered than what the public thinks. A high turnout means the result is at least based on what a great many people think, even if the margin of victory is small. Some local elections have such a low turnout the winner has more to do with which candidate could motivate their family and friends to be bothered, than any grand notion of the will of the people.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2020, 06:52:02 pm »
So it looks very much like there will be no deal between the UK and the EU.

Thought I'd start a thread to pragmatically discuss/help/suggest how this will affect small electronic releated manufacturers when it comes to importing/exporting from the UK.
The biggest question is how things are going to be arranged where it comes to certification. For importing / exporting parts I see no problem except for possible import tarifs.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: fcb

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2020, 06:52:32 pm »
In my opinion, the EU expanded too quickly. They allowed poorer, Eastern European countries to join too quickly. The reason for this is because they wanted to lessen Russia's influence, over Eastern Europe, which has caused trouble in some places, such as Ukraine.
I think the key problem with the EU is that national governments love their own parochial power too much. They allowed the formation of a democratically elected European Parliament, and quite reasonably gave it very limited initial powers. However, their reluctance to let its power grow steadily has put more and more power in the hands of unelected bodies operating in parallel. So, we are now see the people of the EU are in a position of expanding authoritarian rule.

Personally, I think its irrelevant whether Britain is in or out of the EU. The Euro tying interest rates together between the most successful and least successful parts of Europe is causing such tensions that it is, ironically, only the difficulty of freeing themselves from the Euro that is keep several of its members from joining the UK on an exit route.

Have you ever talked with people from the Southern European countries?  I've never met one that want their Drachmas, Liras, etc., back, but I'm sure they must exist...
 

Offline CJay

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4136
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2020, 06:56:11 pm »
The margin was still small, that's fact, a large turnout just means more people voted, it doesn't give more or less of a mandate.
This is nonsense. A big margin on a low turnout has more to do with how much one side motivated its partisans to be bothered than what the public thinks. A high turnout means the result is at least based on what a great many people think, even if the margin of victory is small. Some local elections have such a low turnout the winner has more to do with which candidate could motivate their family and friends to be bothered, than any grand notion of the will of the people.

How does a large turnout increase the percentage margin?

Show me the maths and include your workings.
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10031
  • Country: gb
Re: BREXIT - what it means for small manufacturers
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2020, 07:01:45 pm »
The margin was still small, that's fact, a large turnout just means more people voted, it doesn't give more or less of a mandate.
This is nonsense. A big margin on a low turnout has more to do with how much one side motivated its partisans to be bothered than what the public thinks. A high turnout means the result is at least based on what a great many people think, even if the margin of victory is small. Some local elections have such a low turnout the winner has more to do with which candidate could motivate their family and friends to be bothered, than any grand notion of the will of the people.
How does a large turnout increase the percentage margin?

Show me the maths and include your workings.
The issue I responded to was "more or less of a mandate", not margins. Getting 99% of the votes of a handful of people does NOT give you a mandate. A low turnout usually shows all the parties are treated with disdain, and the public thinks none of them are worth voting for. I think there is great merit in compulsory voting with an abstain box. I would actually turn out for every election with enthusiasm to tick an abstain box.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf