Author Topic: British Gas disabling HIVE devices claiming they are not efficient enough?  (Read 3771 times)

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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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So customers "buy" these things, pay to see it (SUBSCRIPTION below) and British Gas who are behind it come up with an excuse that they are working on more efficient versions as an excuse to brick them and scrap the service.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2023/08/hive-axe-cameras-smart-devices-consumer-rights/
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Hive to remotely switch off certain cameras and smart devices by 2025 including three this summer – here are your rights
Molly Greeves | News & Investigations Reporter 8 August 2023

Smart home tech provider Hive is to switch off the technology for three of its smart devices this summer, leaving you unable to use them. A number of other products – including security devices and leak sensors – will be disconnected by 2025. To check if your device is affected and find out your refund rights, see below.

Hive, which is owned by British Gas' parent company Centrica, says the decision to discontinue its security and leak detection sensors is because it wants to focus on energy-saving products instead. BULLSHIT EXCUSE

The products affected have been taken off of the Hive website. However, we've seen that some other retailers, such as John Lewis, are still selling them, so check if an item is one of those that will be pulled before purchase.  For more help on your consumer rights and how to complain if you're not happy with a service or goods, see our Consumer Rights guide.

Here are the Hive products and subscriptions that will be discontinued
Hive provides ‘smart’ home devices, such as indoor and outdoor cameras, as well as heating and lighting products. Users pay an upfront fee for the product itself, which they can buy from Hive or from a third party retailer. They then control their items via the Hive app – there is a free option to do so, or you can pay a monthly subscription of £3.99.

Hive has already switched off functionality for the following devices...

Boiler IQ wifi. This stopped working on 1 August 2022.
Hub 360 sound detection. This stopped working on 31 December 2022.
Hive camera. This stopped working on 1 August 2023.
Nano 1 Hub. This stopped working on 1 August 2023.
  ...and will also be switching off functionality for these devices and cancelling any associated subscriptions:

Leak sensor, plus Leak subscriptions. These will stop working on 1 September 2023.
Hive HomeShield, plus HomeShield subscriptions. This will stop working on 1 August 2025.
Hive View indoor camera, plus Video Playback subscriptions. These will stop functioning on 1 August 2025.
Hive View outdoor camera, plus Video Playback subscriptions. These will cease to work on 1 August 2025.
These devices can't be used with other providers, so once they stop working that's it. For further help you can also see Hive's information page.

If you want to cancel your subscription sooner, select "settings" in the bottom left corner of your app account, then "payment details". Under your active subscriptions, click "cancel".

Your consumer rights if you're unhappy about the products being discontinued
* Hive's terms and conditions allow it to withdraw plans and devices, so long as it gives customers at least 30 days' notice — this is the case whether you bought your product directly from Hive or from a third-party retailer.

However, this doesn't override consumer rights law, which states that products should last for a reasonable length of time – otherwise, they may be considered faulty. What's "reasonable" in any given case will depend on the circumstances, including how long you've had the product, how much you paid for it and how long products of that type normally last. While there's no guarantee you'll get any money back, if you don't think your Hive gadget has lasted a reasonable length of time, you can raise a complaint with the place you bought it from. Make sure you include any evidence, such as details of your devices and when you purchased them, in any complaint you make.

If you purchased directly from Hive: You could ask for a full or partial refund, depending on how long you've successfully used the device or devices for, by emailing the firm at help@hivehome.com. Hive told us it WILL provide refunds on faulty devices up until the date of discontinuation, so long as the item was bought within the past year. It's unclear whether Hive would agree that a device is "faulty" on the basis that it didn't last a reasonable length of time, but it's worth putting your case to it and citing your consumer rights.

It's also worth pointing out that those who purchased the Nano 1 directly from Hive have been emailed a voucher code to get half price off the Nano 2, though this doesn't mean that this product won't also be discontinued in future. If you want to upgrade, and you also have British Gas HomeCare cover, you should contact Hive at help@hivehome.com first as you may be able to get an even bigger discount.

If you purchased from a third-party retailer: It's worth checking if you're still within the returns window. You have the right to return goods bought online within 14 days of receiving them, even if nothing is wrong with them. While you don't have the same rights for products bought in-store, many stores offer generous returns policies; John Lewis, for example, allows you to return products within 35 days for any reason. After this returns window, you have fewer rights, but you could try asking for a full or partial refund depending on how long you've successfully used the device or devices for. Again, you may be able to argue that your gadget did not last a reasonable length of time – though there are no guarantees.

Hive customers vent their frustration
Some Hive customers have expressed their anger about the move on Twitter:
The terms and conditions means THEY CAN DO WHAT THEY LIKE and have more rights to it than the buyer.

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— Emily Harper (@EmilyTheNumbers) August 2, 2023 @HiveHomeUK
you have discontinued a perfectly functional product. How do you justify this when resources are scarce and we are in the midst of a climate crisis? We will never buy another hive.
No not hive, another CLOUD product that you don't run in house and control.

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— ziggazagga (@ziggazagga) August 4, 2023 @HiveHomeUK
thanks for making the cameras i purchased from you redundant. Do i get a refund because you just broke them?
Will get rid of all hivehome products now.
Sonos tried this once.
That's right, you brought it and PAID to see it.

https://www.gbnews.com/news/british-gas-hive-security-system-discontinued
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Homeowners’ security systems to become useless as British Gas begin switching off devices
By Holly Bishop Published: 04/08/2023 - 12:43

Some of the Hive 'smart home' devices have already begun to be disconnected
British Gas is pulling the plug on their Hive ‘smart home’ devices and has started to switch off their customers’ security cameras already. The home provider announced last year that it was scrapping its home security range, including digital security cameras and burglar alarms which link to users’ smartphones. This means customers’ devices will soon become redundant, in some cases only a few years after they were purchased.

Hive shared this news with more than two million of its customers, saying that the discontinued devices would eventually stop working by 2025. Hive security cameras are being switched offlineHive Home. However, Hive is shutting down some of its products earlier than anticipated, with some ceasing operation from this week onwards. The firm, which is owned by Centricia, the parent company of British Gas, disconnected users of its Hive Camera and Nano 1 Hub, which connects smart home devices to Wi-Fi.

Hive said it had Hive said it had* big plans to make homes more energy efficient and cheaper to run”.  :bullshit:
 The move comes as Hive decides to pivot its business into supplying sustainable devices, such as heat pumps and electric car charges. Hive added that by getting rid of the smart home products, it would allow them to focus on developing “smart home tech that’ll get us closer to net zero”. Yet the brand did not respond when asked to further elaborate on how the switch benefited the environment.

Customers have been left confused and irritated. More like betrayed.

Brian Smith, a retiree from Wadhurst whose two Hive Cameras became obsolete on Tuesday, said: “I am peeved. What energy are these cameras consuming, or what resources, that makes it necessary to withdraw them to achieve net zero? “I have had these cameras for four years, but I don’t understand why it should be necessary [to discontinue them]. If I could have been supplied with a more credible explanation as to why they are giving them up I would be more satisfied.” Smith believed the cameras would last at least another two years but now have been rendered useless. The cameras acted as a guard against potential burglaries, as Smith could view the outside and inside of his house remotely, which put his mind at ease.
* Big plans to sell replacements under the excuse it will be cheaper to run.
 
For the nature of these sorts of things I'd consider them rental but no have to "buy" them first.
Sounds like a big con to me and betrayal for the security stuff.

When the solar panel installer started to talk about "APPS" on phones, "SMART WIFI STICK" and "CLOUD MONITORING" last year, my confidence and trust went to zero but fortunately there is a way to run an inhouse appliance Homeassistant for Fox-ess stuff.

So this what happens when they "buy" something and pay to see it.
Joke: Owner buys a fish tank with fish and water but to see the fish they have to pay to put their head under the cloth covering the tank to see the fish.

Efficiency more important than your security... pay up for newer version or be left without it

What do you think?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2023, 04:24:04 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline EPAIII

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So you are surprised?

What surprises me is that anyone would buy a product that they can't completely own and control. But then, here I am using a computer with Windows. .........
Paul A.  -   SE Texas
And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
You will find that it has discrete steps.
 
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Offline AndyBeez

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A possible opportunity for repurpossing these cloud fogged devices with Tomato or OpenWRT. I wonder if the real reason for the demise is cyber security issues or the third party cloud provider is linked to the Chinese government? Just more e-waste.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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So you are surprised?

What surprises me is that anyone would buy a product that they can't completely own and control.
No surprise at all - the average member of the public has no clue about these issues. Ditto issues like repairability, security etc. How else would douchebag companies like HP sell any printers for example.

Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
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Offline tom66

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This is why my smart home stuff is all Zigbee.

I have a Drayton Wiser system for heating control.  I specifically bought it because it can work entirely locally, with Home Assistant.  I will never, ever use a product supported only by the cloud and will try to convince others to avoid these products.

Hive seems like a really nasty company/division of Centrica.   Perhaps we need a law that stipulates if you release a cloud-enabled product you are required to support it for at least a decade and if you do discontinue it, are required to pass the resources for supporting the technology over to the open source community, including domain name end points etc.
 
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Offline Halcyon

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So you are surprised?

What surprises me is that anyone would buy a product that they can't completely own and control. But then, here I am using a computer with Windows. .........

This is why I bought a Mac this year.
 
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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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So you are surprised?

What surprises me is that anyone would buy a product that they can't completely own and control. But then, here I am using a computer with Windows. .........
I knew it was bound  to happen eventually no surprise there but the surprising element I find is when this happens time again and people will not learn from it and still buy into this nonsense... "We won't buy another NEST etc"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/homeowners-security-systems-rendered-useless-british-gas/
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The leading smart home tech provider told some of its two million customers last year it was taking the "tough decision”  :bullshit: to discontinue eight of its products, including digital security cameras and burglar alarms...
I like how the telegraph put the quotes over it.

Quote
The move will see Hive abandon its home security line and instead pivot to  :bullshit:, such as heat pumps and electric car chargers.
Dear victims, before you go out and buy the new "pivoted" product think of what they have done and can do it again when they feel that it is not efficient or "sustainable"... never mind how none of your business you stupid consumer.
After their tough move I wouldn't trust another product or claim forget about sustainable, what's the point.

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He added he had expected the cameras to last another two years at least and that they allowed him to remotely view the outside and inside of his home, giving him peace of mind because they are a guard against potential burglaries.  Hive’s website states that the model of camera used by Mr Smith is not eligible for a replacement, despite the items only being removed from sale in 2019.
So they screwed him over in the name of efficiency and sustainability.

Quote
British Gas has backed smart homes through its partnership with Hive as a way for billpayers to help fight  climate change. Smart plug sockets, lights, energy meters and thermostats are promised by the supplier’s website to be “good for the planet”  :bullshit: and “good for your pocket too" :bullshit:

As a way to manipulate and rip off billpayers with non sustainable/ efficient products that they admit some years after where they scam them and brick their products. I think it is certainly good for their pocket (British Gas) if they can do things like this and scrap the service when people buy into it.

Good for your pocket... sounds to me like the bullshit language and claims from Thames Water 20 years about water meters... "Good for your pocket... Good for the environment"... "the fairest way to pay for water" infrastructure/flat rate vs metering and I wouldn't class any as the fairest way as the rates may differ by area.

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The devices typically give consumers more control over their energy consumption and can be linked to mobile phones and Amazon’s Alexa smart speaker.
What control do they have now?

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A spokesman for Hive said: “At Hive we’ve got big plans to make Britain’s homes greener. So we made the tough decision to discontinue some products including security cameras and develop more smart home tech that’ll get us closer to net zero.
Well HOW ABOUT replacing it for LIKE FOR LIKE? but then still waste.

Quote
He added: “* Our focus on net zero is around home energy management  :bullshit: , using our smart home technology to give our customers energy efficiency insights on their homes and connect new devices such as air source heat pumps, electric vehicle chargers, and home batteries to the Hive platform.”

* More like product obsolescence where smart is making people buy this crap and taking it away from them in future when they feel like in whatever name they choose, whether it'd be efficiently, carbon net or saving the planet.

Joke: “At Hive we’ve got big plans to brick your devices... in the name of the environment and the cash flow in our pocket. You can achieve carbon net zero by simply not using them. In the name of the environment, we'll start projects to help the environment, pull out of those and start other projects like heat pumps in order to maintain carbon efficiency levels and sustainability of our cash flow and our man power on these projects.

How else would douchebag companies like HP sell any printers for example.
Quote
“good for the planet” and “good for your pocket too"

It reminds me a bit like HP+:
Be good to the planet, be good to your pocket, help aim to reach net zero carbon efficiencies but KISS OUR ASS FIRST.... then we decide when you can use your HIVE devices.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2023, 02:25:53 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Offline themadhippy

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sounds to me like the bullshit language and claims from Thames Water 20 years about water meters... "Good for your pocket... Good for the environment"... "the fairest way to pay for water" infrastructure/flat rate vs metering and I wouldn't class any as the fairest way as the rates may differ by area.
As someone whos recently switched to a  thames water meter i can confirm it is very good for my pocket,my water rates are a third of what they were on  the flat rate,same property same water usage.
 
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Offline AndyBeez

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A heap of Hive products on eBay. This image suggests that some Hive smart thermostats may really be a rebadged Zigbee on the inside.
 

Offline magic

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So you are surprised?

What surprises me is that anyone would buy a product that they can't completely own and control. But then, here I am using a computer with Windows. .........

This is why I bought a Mac this year.

Joke's on both of you :-DD
 
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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: British Gas disabling HIVE Homeassistant alternative
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2023, 03:45:36 am »
Fortunately there maybe some hope for them with Homeassistant:
https://community.home-assistant.io/t/can-i-integrate-hive-active-heating-into-ha-without-the-hive-hub/246728/19
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Can I integrate Hive Active Heating into HA without the Hive Hub?
Third party integrations zigbee

jampez77 Jamie Nandhra-Pezone
Nov '20
I’m wondering if anyone here could help me. I’m looking to replace two old thermostats and the Hive Active Heating ones look like a good fit. The wiring is exactly the same as my existing set up.

Here: https://www.hivehome.com/products/hive-active-heating 89

I see that they are ZigBee devices and both the thermostat and receiver are listed as being compatible with HA.

Receiver: https://zigbee.blakadder.com/Hive_SLR1b.html 210
Thermostat: https://zigbee.blakadder.com/Hive_SLT3.html 163

Would I be able to install them with both local control via the thermostats and have control of them through HA? Do I need the Hive Hub or will my HA act as the hub?
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vonChaps Dec '20
My understanding is that Hive devices use some bespoke subset of Zigbee such that a hub is required for full functionaliy. There are some reports of people getting a generic ZigBee receiver to work, eg here 211, but it’s not entirely clear. I certainly think there are some features of the HiveHome heating implementation that are not part of the thermostat so YMMV.

If you are going into the weeds like this, it may be better just to get a zigbee thermostat and connect a RPi to the boiler demand. After all, the Hive thermostat is nothing special without the backend stuff.
Quote
jampez77 Jamie Nandhra-Pezone Dec '20

Thanks for your reply. Since asking this question I’ve bought and installed two Hive Thermostats. It took a while to get everything paired and connected with HA.

Since then it’s been pretty solid. The only negative is that one of the thermostats disconnects/reconnects from the receiver pretty regularly. This itself doesn’t cause an issue most of the time but sometimes it will turn off the heating when it reconnects.

I think i’ll keep this set up for now and if it becomes unusable I’ll just get a hub.
Quote
HarvsG 4 Jun '21
Many thanks @jampez77

Writing up the procedure for others’ benefit

Remove the thermostat from the wall and remove a battery
Turn boiler off, then on again - this should cut power to the boiler receiver
Hold down central heating button on the boiler receiver until light turns pink then release
Hold down the central heating button again until the light turns amber with double flashing then release
Pair (the boiler receiver) with Home Assistant - I will be using ZHA’s ‘add device’ function
At this point the amber double flash may change to a single flash
Stop ZHA from searching for devices by pressing back
Replace the battery in the thermostat and allow to boot
Press and hold the menu and back buttons, a countdown should appear on the screen, allow the countdown to finish and release when you see ‘welcome’. After selecting a language, it will enter pairing mode.
On ZHA (or similar), select the boiler device you added earlier, now click “ADD DEVICES VIA THIS DEVICE” - the Thermostat must be connected to the ZigBee network via the boiler receiver we added earlier
The thermostat should now pair to the boiler receiver. The amber light on the boiler receiver should turn green.
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clockworkant Alec Holmes Dec '21
I’ve recently purchased a hive v3 and I think I’ve successfully integrated it with zigbee2mqtt. I’ve just added some PR’s to the herdsman and the docs. Hopefully if I’ve submitted the updates correctly it’ll be rolled out soon!

github.com/blakadder/zigbee
Update Hive_SLT3.md 56
blakadder:master ← clockworkant:patch-2
opened  Dec 10, 2021
clockworkant clockworkant
+17 -1
Added new steps to pair the thermostat and the receiver using the zigbee2mqtt we…
github.com/Koenkk/zigbee2mqtt.io
Adding Hive SLT3C to docs with image 38
Koenkk:master ← clockworkant:master
opened  Dec 10, 2021
clockworkant clockworkant
+64 -0

What a nice alternative and it looks like BritishGas haven't locked them down fully.
 

Offline AndyBeez

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Re: British Gas disabling HIVE Homeassistant alternative
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2023, 12:24:14 pm »
What a nice alternative and it looks like BritishGas haven't locked them down fully.
:-// Maybe that's a problem?

IoT devices should be 100% black boxes that not even the most dedicated computer geek with a side channel 'spark machine' and a JTAG swim probe can attack. Even if it is just to upgrade those crappy flashing LED colours.
 

Offline tom66

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A heap of Hive products on eBay. This image suggests that some Hive smart thermostats may really be a rebadged Zigbee on the inside.

Hive does use Zigbee for most of their heating control stuff and some people have reverse engineered parts of the protocol, but Zigbee supports encryption so it's possible some of their devices will only pair with their hubs (unsure how their cameras would work for instance, the video likely needs to go to a central server).

The bigger problem is not everyone wants to mess around with Home Assistant or Zigbee2MQTT to support Hive -- they bought a system expecting it to work for a reasonable time and within 4 years, they've killed the entire product line off.  Very bad.
 

Offline themadhippy

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Quote
What a nice alternative and it looks like BritishGas haven't locked them down fully.
yet,lets see what any final software update does.
 
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Offline AndyBeez

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A seven year old teardown of a Centrica Hive Hub controller here : https://datapoint.uk/2016/06/hive-nano-v2-hub-teardown/
Some possible ICSP/JTAG pin headers? The original authors did not have much luck cracking in. References on the PCB silks to 'AlertMe.com'.
Quote
AlertMe was a UK smart Tech company that provides energy and home monitoring hardware and services. AlertMe produces hardware and software to enable users to monitor and control their home energy use. In 2015 the company was acquired by British Gas Trading Limited for £65 million. In April 2016 the limited company was renamed to Centrica Connected Home Limited.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlertMe
AlertMe.com Inc was dissolved in September 2021.

According to UK Companies House, the full accounts made up to 31st December 2021 reported that Centrica Connected Home Limited (aka HIVE) made a loss of £48M, compared to the previous year's £151M. In that year the company made a gross profit of £15M but was crushed by operating costs of £45M. The Homeshield product was scheduled for demolition. Net liabilities totalled £462M!
Referenced: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/05782908/filing-history
« Last Edit: August 18, 2023, 04:49:33 pm by AndyBeez »
 
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Offline Infraviolet

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Is there any way people foolish enough to have bought these a while ago might be able to force a back-charge on the payment? Might have been a long time ago, but perhaps if one, accurately given HIVE's behaviour, described the product as fraudulent or such then maybe an extended back-charging period for VISA, direct debits or credit cards might apply? If a fair number of customers did that it could really hit HIVE in the wallet.

The lesson the wider public should learn, but doesn't seem to, is never to buya product dependent on a remote server, but if there could be a mass back-charging of payments to HIVE, enough to collapse the company, then maybe other companies would learn a lesson and not sell those sort of dodgy IoT devices in the first place.

I would definitely support requiring all companies which sell such devices to publish all the info necessary for people to build open-source local server backends for the devices if at any point they withdraw the product line or go bust. I wouldn't go so far as having an independent central repository of such info to be published when an IoT company collapses (or retires a device), as I doubt many companies would want to share their software that way foroperational products, but I'd have big personal punishments on the bosses of any companies who didn't ensure such publication was done as the last act of a closing company.
 
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Offline tom66

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Is there any way people foolish enough to have bought these a while ago might be able to force a back-charge on the payment? Might have been a long time ago, but perhaps if one, accurately given HIVE's behaviour, described the product as fraudulent or such then maybe an extended back-charging period for VISA, direct debits or credit cards might apply? If a fair number of customers did that it could really hit HIVE in the wallet.

The lesson the wider public should learn, but doesn't seem to, is never to buya product dependent on a remote server, but if there could be a mass back-charging of payments to HIVE, enough to collapse the company, then maybe other companies would learn a lesson and not sell those sort of dodgy IoT devices in the first place.

Most S.75 stuff is taken on the chin by the card company, it's not worth fighting it with the supplier, if a large number of claims come through for one product then it might change (e.g. flights over COVID were a good one).

The problem I've had with S.75 is credit card companies deliberately make it hard to claim - everything has to be done by post, they wait weeks between sending letters, and in my case, they've just started ghosting me so I'll have to get the FOS involved.

It's a shame we don't really have 'class actions' in the UK.  They are often used frivolously, and lawyers do benefit more than claimants, but the idea of everyone ganging up together to fight a problem and force a manufacturer to correct an error, or at least compensate owners, is a pleasant one.
 
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