General > General Technical Chat
Building a DIY defibrillator in an emergency,
AVGresponding:
--- Quote from: janoc on September 27, 2023, 07:19:06 pm ---
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on September 27, 2023, 05:00:03 pm ---By the time you've built your ad hoc defib it'll be too late to be of any use.
Far better to use a website like this https://www.defibfinder.uk/, or download an app to your smartphone.
--- End quote ---
An even better idea is to learn how to administer CPR and actually perform it, while having someone call the emergency services. Thinking about building anything or searching for a defibrillator on a phone when you have a victim on the floor in cardiac arrest is ... bonkers?
We are talking about minutes that person will survive without immediate help, tops. CPR might not save them either - but if you spend that time looking for gadgets and/or McGyvering something instead of working their chest, they will die for sure.
Something I was taught by an ER doctor - don't worry about breaking ribs or catching something because of mouth-to-mouth breathing. Both will heal but nobody can cure death. The goal is to keep the victim alive while help arrives. Also nobody can successfully sue you for breaking their ribs (or causing other injury) while you were saving their life. OTOH, in many places you can be criminally prosecuted for not helping despite being able to.
--- End quote ---
Oh FFS do I have to explicitly state the implied context? Of course this is in ADDITION to performing first aid, which would include CPR, when and where appropriate, after ensuring there is no danger extant to yourself or the patient.
Where I work, first aid courses are mandatory, with regular refresher courses.
FWIW you can't be prosecuted for either trying to help or not trying to help, in the UK.
SiliconWizard:
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on September 29, 2023, 05:20:49 am ---FWIW you can't be prosecuted for either trying to help or not trying to help, in the UK
--- End quote ---
Really? In some cases, "not trying to help" is akin to failing your "duty to rescue", which I guess varies from country to country in terms of the law, but isn't there something like this in the UK? That would be interesting.
Of course, the duty to rescue doesn't mean trying to do medical acts that you don't master at all on someone, if that's what you meant by "help". I guess the minimum you'd be expected to do when witnessing that someone has suffered a cardiac arrest would be to call the emergency services. If you can't, that would be trying to find help another way, as much as you can. No one's gonna expect from you than you'll save someone with a magical act that you have no clue about, unless it's actually your job.
Conversely, doing something provably dumb or excessively risky considering the circumstances, especially if you are aware of the risks (say you are an engineer, you're supposed to know what kind of risks you'd take here by making a DIY defibrillator or something like that), I have a hard time believing it won't get you to being prosecuted and facing court.
Would be interested in hearing more about the UK's law, and if indeed you'd never be prosecuted from trying something really stupid and dangerous to help someone. That would look like a can of worms if that were really the case.
AVGresponding:
I probably should have said "won't" instead of "can't", but in practice, it just doesn't happen.
My guess is if you made a DIY defibrillator and the patient died after you used it, there's a definite possibility of prosecution, depending quite a bit on the findings of the Coroner.
SiliconWizard:
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on September 29, 2023, 01:28:34 pm ---I probably should have said "won't" instead of "can't", but in practice, it just doesn't happen.
My guess is if you made a DIY defibrillator and the patient died after you used it, there's a definite possibility of prosecution, depending quite a bit on the findings of the Coroner.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, now from a legal POV, that's still an interesting point I think - from what I have read in the meantime (nothing deep so far though), there indeed doesn't seem to be anything like a formal "duty to rescue" in UK's law, while there is in some other countries. But someone more knowledgeable in UK's law system can possibly correct this or add some precisions.
Wallace Gasiewicz:
In response to Halcion:
You are essentially correct, in my opinion.
In addition the quality of the "shock" delivered has changed with technology improvements and medical observations of the type of shock effect experimentally in laboratory animals.
There is no way to quickly develop a modern "shock" that is delivered by current defibrillators.I suppose the first defibrillator that I used would be considered quite unsatisfactory in today's world. This was more than 50 yrs ago.
In addition there are differing opinions as to when to terminate unsuccessful CPR. This is an ongoing argument. More than 30 min????
The other thing to consider is how quickly is a defibrillator likely to arrive on the scene. The sooner the better.
The silliest thing I have repeatedly seen in Movies and TV shows in the past is the application of a common AC wall outlet jolt to a victim. This is likely to produce more trouble than it can possibly alleviate.
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