Author Topic: building a new computer  (Read 2592 times)

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Offline sony mavica

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building a new computer
« on: February 10, 2018, 01:35:17 am »
my current pc
i72600k
8gb ram
2x 1tb hdd
nvidia gts 450 1gb
and a nice lg 1366x768 screen i do have a nice AOC 1080p screen but its scratched in two spots
all games at default settings give me around 60fps @ 768p

i want to  build pc for around $1000nzd what should i get i have $220 to this site mightyape.co.nz and have $105nzd saved from selling old laptops i got free good for parts and 2 free tablet pc i got i cant test as they take weird chargers and still have other laptops i got free yet to list online for sale also
i get giftcards to mightyape all the time for doing surveys and money to paypal from other sites from doing surveys and other tasks online
i do have enough money in the bank to get a computer now but since i don't want to spend my own money i would rather save and use money i get from selling the laptops and money from survey

but i have no idea what parts to get or should i just stick with my i7 pc

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Offline Halcyon

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2018, 01:46:39 am »
but i have no idea what parts to get or should i just stick with my i7 pc

That's a decision you need to make yourself. No one can make it for you. It depends what you use your computer for and is it meeting your needs? Or is it just the case you want a new machine?

In either case there are literally thousands and thousands of combinations for building a PC. Some combinations of hardware work reliably together, some don't.

As the old saying goes: What are you hoping to achieve? Speed, stability or cost effectiveness -- Pick two.
 

Offline sony mavica

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2018, 01:56:01 am »
but i have no idea what parts to get or should i just stick with my i7 pc

That's a decision you need to make yourself. No one can make it for you. It depends what you use your computer for and is it meeting your needs? Or is it just the case you want a new machine?

In either case there are literally thousands and thousands of combinations for building a PC. Some combinations of hardware work reliably together, some don't.

As the old saying goes: What are you hoping to achieve? Speed, stability or cost effectiveness -- Pick two.

mostly just want a new computer because i get a lot of giftcards to mightyape and i don't really need a new pc but would be nice also there is nothing they sell on there site that i need or even want or is interesting and the only think i can think of that would interest me to spend the giftcards and money i get for the laptops  on would be parts to build a computer otherwise these giftcards will never get spent

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Offline Halcyon

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2018, 02:03:59 am »
Perhaps you can look at upgrading your current machine, more memory, larger SSD drive, better video card etc...

Everyone has their own opinion on what makes a good PC. In my experience, you really need to know what you're doing to get the right mix of hardware otherwise you just end up with a mediocre machine.

Personally, I spend a little bit more on workstation/enterprise level components, even if it means sacrificing some performance. They last forever and a day. In a general sense, this is what I use and recommend:

Motherboard: Supermicro or Intel
RAM: Refer to the motherboard manufacturer to what works well with a particular board
CPU: Intel (Preferably Xeon)
Video Card: NVIDIA-based
Hard disks: Intel, Samsung or Kingston for SSDs or Hitachi Ultrastar for traditional spinning disks.
Power supply: Supermicro or Seasonic
 
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Offline blueskull

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2018, 04:30:32 am »
1000 NZD=730 USD, that's not going to get you far, especially considering the evil commonwealth VAT and import tax.
Even in the US, 730 USD won't get you far.
Let's say you pay 20% on tax, you have only $600 on raw cost of the parts.
$600 can't get you a new computer that's faster than your i7 one.

If I were you, I would spend $300 on a good CPU (1700x or 8700), $100 on a cheapest mobo that will run that CPU, and $200 on 16 gigs of RAM.
Then I would consider to stretch my budget a bit for an SSD.
I would reuse old HDD, GPU, chassis and PSU.
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2018, 04:38:39 am »
I would sink literally all of it into a better GPU, and an SSD.

The 2600k is still a powerful chip, as sign of how Intel basically did nothing after Sandy Bridge basically made AMD pointless in terms of performance computing up until Ryzen. The effective performance you would gain for general purpose workloads (if you are looking for lotsa CPU, I'd suggest picking up an old decommissioned server with lotsa cpu cores) would be nothing compared to the money spent to get to it.

730 USD will get you a 1080 and a 500GB SATA SSD. If you want to change stuff around, you might want to do something like grab a 1070, 500GB SSD, and a bit more RAM if your board supports it (if it doesn't don't bother, 8GB is enough for the present).

Upgrading an old system on a budget NEVER happens all at once. I started with a dual core A4 llano based APU with a "6510D" which was a joke in performance (Farming Simulator 2013 was a demanding title for me).

Part by part, I think starting with the motherboard/CPU, up to the RAM, then a graphics card, and then again to my i7, with an SSD somewhere along the way, I got to a decent machine that will be running alright for a while (or at least until I win the lottery).

Don't bother with Ryzens if you have a 2600k. They may be faster, but unless you can get a good buyer for your old hardware, the money you will put in to the additional performance you will get out will be useless. 2600ks are still capable chips to this day.
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2018, 04:44:58 am »
If I were you, I would spend $300 on a good CPU (1700x or 8700), $100 on a cheapest mobo that will run that CPU, and $200 on 16 gigs of RAM.

This is the kind of thinking that I see way too often then people wonder why their machine runs like crap or needs a reboot every few days. I'm not having a personal dig at you blueskull, but what's the point of spending money on a "good" CPU then plopping that on top of a cheap, crappy motherboard? You start with good foundations and build up. You're basically pissing away any performance gain with a cheap and nasty board.

You don't go and put $50 Chinese tyres on a luxury European car, do you?

TwoOfFive has provided some good advice above.

 

Offline blueskull

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2018, 04:55:37 am »
This is the kind of thinking that I see way too often then people wonder why their machine runs like crap or needs a reboot every few days. I'm not having a personal dig at you blueskull, but what's the point of spending money on a "good" CPU then plopping that on top of a cheap, crappy motherboard?

My $229 AsRock X99 had a lot of troubles, but for the money, I'm happy about it. After several BIOS updates and disabling some faulty hardware (namely WiFi and USB3.1), the board is rock solid, and I've been continuously mining on it for a few days, stressing both CPU and GPU to maximum since I mine DCR and ETH on GPU, and XMR on CPU at the same time.

A good or bad mobo only determines reliability and quirks, not performance. An 8700K overclocked to 5GHz may set a Z370DP3 on fire in days, but before that happens, it runs equally fast as an ROG Z370. If you ease back on overclocking, or just pick a non-OC chip like 8700 without -K, you won't see any difference besides maybe some annoying quirks that can be avoided as long as you are aware of them.

AsRock is known for making super cheap boards with fairly decent quality and Asus-like BIOS (they are a spin off from Asus), but there are always some small quirks. For budget builds, AsRock boards pack fairly amount of bang for the buck.

As for Intel, they no longer make motherboards besides for server applications, not even workstations. SuperMicro only makes super solid server/WS boards with a big price tag, but that means nothing unless you have a Xeon CPU and ECC RAM.

Also, in case you get an overclockable chip, no Intel or SM boards allow you to OC it, and Intel/SM boards have super poor VRM, usually 3 phase for E3 level chips and 6 phase for E5 level chips, while gaming boards usually have 4~6 phase VRM for i7/E3 boards and 8~12 phase VRM for i9/E5 boards.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 05:04:37 am by blueskull »
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2018, 05:01:18 am »
I run a 4790k, and I ran the numbers of what CPU I would have to upgrade to, in order to see any significant performance increase.

I came to the conclusion that in order to even make it close to being worth my while, I would have to drop money on something like a Threadripper, or the fastest Ryzen 7, not because there aren't Ryzen 7s or even 5s that beat my cpu, but because the performance gained would be so insignificant, the money spent might as well have been wasted (It's like spending 60 grand on a car that has 40 more horsepower than your car that has 260, and cost 50 grand)

The one thing that has pissed me right the hell off, though, is meltdown. People have been talking about different workloads and how they will all be affected, but what I found is, since the cache is flushed whenever ANY system call is made, it slows down EVERYTHING, to the point where I might as well not have any cache. I've noticed heavy hits with VMs and Disk I/O, but even things like video rendering, and just generic everydaying has taken some measurable hit because whenever a kernel call is made, it flushes the cache.

This is right quick turning me into a never Intel person. The flaw is incredibly stupid, and the fix is a joke. Even overclocking, which my 4790k is a darling for, hasn't helped close the gap enough. I feel like I have been downgraded to a slower CPU and am pissed off at Intel. The reason I went with them is because they had the performance option, and AMD was making 240 watt space heaters that required water cooling and a board with power delivery akin to a mains substation. Now that AMD is back in the game, my next CPU, whenever I get one, will be AMD. It's maddening that Intel, a company who has enough money to attempt multiple moonshots in the exact same historical manner as the Apollo program, decided to cheap out on security research and leave this shit in.

Anyways, after this rant, I have to say this. Intel has CPUs that perform well to this day, despite meltdown. Upgrade your weakest hardware, and keep your strongest.

I do actually have to agree with blueskull a bit here. Not on what to buy, but on the fact that workstation gear is reliable, but it's also expensive, and restrictive.
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2018, 05:38:50 am »
The one thing that has pissed me right the hell off, though, is meltdown. People have been talking about different workloads and how they will all be affected, but what I found is, since the cache is flushed whenever ANY system call is made, it slows down EVERYTHING, to the point where I might as well not have any cache. I've noticed heavy hits with VMs and Disk I/O, but even things like video rendering, and just generic everydaying has taken some measurable hit because whenever a kernel call is made, it flushes the cache.

This is right quick turning me into a never Intel person. The flaw is incredibly stupid, and the fix is a joke. Even overclocking, which my 4790k is a darling for, hasn't helped close the gap enough. I feel like I have been downgraded to a slower CPU and am pissed off at Intel. The reason I went with them is because they had the performance option, and AMD was making 240 watt space heaters that required water cooling and a board with power delivery akin to a mains substation. Now that AMD is back in the game, my next CPU, whenever I get one, will be AMD. It's maddening that Intel, a company who has enough money to attempt multiple moonshots in the exact same historical manner as the Apollo program, decided to cheap out on security research and leave this shit in.
I remember reading that kernel 4.14 has PCID support that substantially reduces the performance impact of the Meltdown fix, and likewise the "repotline" fix for Spectre has little performance impact.
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Offline Ampera

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2018, 05:48:30 am »
The fact that the fixes are getting better consoles me little. It's the fact that Intel has screwed over every single customer that has bought one of their products in the last 10 years all at once that has me riled. I don't want less performance hit, I want the issue to have not been there at all in the first place.
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Offline amspire

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2018, 06:49:47 am »
my current pc
i72600k
8gb ram
2x 1tb hdd
nvidia gts 450 1gb

The 2600K is still a great processor for general purpose work.
 
If the CPU and motherboard are working fine, I would keep it for the next two years. Perhaps increase the RAM to 16G or 20G and get a SSD C: drive to make the computer feel twice as fast.

Whatever Microsoft do in 2020 to replace Windows 10, there will probably be some hardware changes optimised for the new O/S. Wait till then if you can.

Unless you have a need for better graphics or you use programs that use GPU processing, that nVidia card will probably fine. Definitely get a nice display, perhaps a good keyboard and mouse.

With what you have left, I would get a good Linux-based NAS box with snapshot capability like Netgear ReadyNAS boxes along with a pair of NAS drives such as the WD Reds. Set up some kind of automated file sync from your PC to the NAS box. You will not regret it.
 

Offline technix

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2018, 07:50:56 am »
my current pc
i72600k
Keep the i7-2600K. Sandy Bridge is still a good performer, especially since you can overclock this chip as needed. Maybe upgrade the cooler to something bigger than stock cooler to accommodate overclocking.
8gb ram
Should be enough. Bump to 16 using second hand modules if you really feel the memory pressure.
2x 1tb hdd
Throw in a new SSD, That will be the best upgrade you can ever get for this machine. With your budget you might be able to get a good 480GB SSD.
nvidia gts 450 1gb
If you are okay with just keeping OS and programs on a 240GB SSD, go with an GTX 1080 Ti. Don't bother looking into the mid range cards as those are hugely inflated in price amid the cryptocurrency craze.
and a nice lg 1366x768 screen i do have a nice AOC 1080p screen but its scratched in two spots
all games at default settings give me around 60fps @ 768p
Keep them. If you did get the GTX 1080 Ti you can dual display them.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2018, 08:14:35 am »
I do actually have to agree with blueskull a bit here. Not on what to buy, but on the fact that workstation gear is reliable, but it's also expensive, and restrictive.

You are absolutely correct. As I said from the beginning, everyone has an opinion, including me. I've dealt with shitty consumer hardware for many years (and granted, not all consumer-grade hardware is shit), but about 10 years ago, I vowed never again and I haven't looked back.

Yes, decent gear costs more. No question about that. But I think spending more on individual components as you suggested is far better than throwing a good CPU at a horrible board.

As I said in my first post: "Speed, stability or cost effectiveness -- Pick two".

EDIT: As I type this, I'm using an old HP 6710b laptop which came with a 2.20 GHz Intel Centrino Duo CPU. It has 2GB RAM and runs Windows XP. The only thing I've changed is the old hard disk to an SSD and it runs brilliantly. Right now I have Opera running with 35 browser tabs open and VLC media player running with a DVD. It actually runs pretty damn well and does most things I need it to. It's reasonably responsive and it's usually left running on a table somewhere in my house so I can quickly move it to where I need it and do what I want. I use it almost every day when I don't want to sit in my office on my desktop machine or have something on the stove or in the oven.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 08:21:30 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline ANTALIFE

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2018, 11:56:38 am »
Logical Increments & PriceSpy once you have the parts figures out ;^)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 11:58:12 am by ANTALIFE »
 

Offline rdl

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 06:42:11 pm »
I use an i5-3570 and last year I switched the original video card (GT something 550) for a new GTX-1050 Ti and it was like having a new machine when playing games. It has always used an SSD for boot and games. I just put a bigger one in over Christmas but it's still not enough with games coming in at >40GB these days.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2018, 06:54:13 pm »
The thing is the new Intel bugs. Intel has pushed some mandatory updates through WU, and they slow down pre-7th Intel chips by a lot. That's why I would say stay away from 2600k.

Also, i7 doesn't mean it's fast. A latest i3 8100 is way faster than a non-OC i7 2600k, and the soon-to-be-released APU R5 2400G is as fast as i7 7700 with GT1030-level GPU, all for $169.

Moving further up, Intel has this AMD Vega integrated i7 chips to be released soon, and those chips will pack GTX1060-level graphics performance and at least quad core i7 performance, that eases your GPU requirement. This is especially attractive considering the crazy price of discrete GPUs nowadays thanks to CC miners.
 

Offline Avacee

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2018, 06:58:59 pm »
I'm still using an i5-2500K (the nicely overclockable one) from ~2011 and looking at CPU comparison charts I'd have to spend a LOT of money to get any noticeable improvement for my usage yet when I went from mechanical hard drive to SSD it was literally comparable to getting a new PC.

So, IMHO, try an SSD first and see if you still want to upgrade or examine where you need to upgrade once the HHD bottle neck is massively reduced.
You may then choose to wait until the newer CPU's are released that have solved the recently highlighted bugs, or when the newer CPU's are released the current "buggy" ones may be sold off cheap :)




 

Offline Ampera

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2018, 07:03:03 pm »
The thing is the new Intel bugs. Intel has pushed some mandatory updates through WU, and they slow down pre-7th Intel chips by a lot. That's why I would say stay away from 2600k.

Also, i7 doesn't mean it's fast. A latest i3 8100 is way faster than a non-OC i7 2600k, and the soon-to-be-released APU R5 2400G is as fast as i7 7700 with GT1030-level GPU, all for $169.

Moving further up, Intel has this AMD Vega integrated i7 chips to be released soon, and those chips will pack GTX1060-level graphics performance and at least quad core i7 performance, that eases your GPU requirement. This is especially attractive considering the crazy price of discrete GPUs nowadays thanks to CC miners.

I am skeptical about the price of those. Vega is an overpriced mess that doesn't outperform nVidia price to performance.

Also, yes, while i7 doesn't always mean fast, the 2600k is fast enough for most tasks still. 2600k's passmark around 8460, while my 4790k, one of the fastest four core i7s on the market, passmarks at around 11,000. While passmark isn't always a great measure of speed, it's enough to ballpark into seeing that the 2600k has some life left in it. Upgrading that on such a restrictive budget when there are so many more gaping and obvious ways to improve it is, I think, a waste of money.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2018, 07:14:42 pm »
I would sink literally all of it into a better GPU, and an SSD.
The GPU not so much because these can get noisy. When I ordered my Dell workstation I downgraded the GPU for a fanless model. An SSD is about the best performance upgrade you can get these days. Be sure to disable the swap though when using an SSD. Having swap is useless anyway because after several tens of megabytes in swap the computer slows down to a crawl and the gain in memory size is insignificant compared to the several GB installed in computers nowadays. Extra memory never hurts.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 07:17:22 pm by nctnico »
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Offline Ampera

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2018, 07:24:22 pm »
I would sink literally all of it into a better GPU, and an SSD.
The GPU not so much because these can get noisy. When I ordered my Dell workstation I downgraded the GPU for a fanless model. An SSD is about the best performance upgrade you can get these days. Be sure to disable the swap though when using an SSD. Having swap is useless anyway because after several tens of megabytes in swap the computer slows down to a crawl and the gain in memory size is insignificant compared to the several GB installed in computers nowadays. Extra memory never hurts.

Your use case might be different than the OP's. Knowing the OP a bit from previous encounters with him on the forum, I find it safe to say he's looking for something semi-capable of gaming. I can tell you, nothing that comes out of the factory passively cooled will be able to hit that mark. I'm pretty sure the OP understands that if he buys a new machine with faster parts, it's likely going to make noise.

For the rest, I can agree with you, but he is not the kind of person who doesn't care about GPU performance, I am fairly sure of that. There are genuine cases when silence over GPU performance might be better, but this is not one of them.
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Offline technix

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2018, 07:41:42 pm »
The thing is the new Intel bugs. Intel has pushed some mandatory updates through WU, and they slow down pre-7th Intel chips by a lot. That's why I would say stay away from 2600k.
But not by much, if the benchmarks say anything, especially for home users.

Also, i7 doesn't mean it's fast. A latest i3 8100 is way faster than a non-OC i7 2600k, and the soon-to-be-released APU R5 2400G is as fast as i7 7700 with GT1030-level GPU, all for $169.
However all of those chips require DDR4 memory, whose prices are off the roof now.

Moving further up, Intel has this AMD Vega integrated i7 chips to be released soon, and those chips will pack GTX1060-level graphics performance and at least quad core i7 performance, that eases your GPU requirement. This is especially attractive considering the crazy price of discrete GPUs nowadays thanks to CC miners.
That chip will NOT be released to the general public at all, only to OEM manufacturers, likely for laptops and all-in-ones.

Also, yes, while i7 doesn't always mean fast, the 2600k is fast enough for most tasks still. 2600k's passmark around 8460, while my 4790k, one of the fastest four core i7s on the market, passmarks at around 11,000. While passmark isn't always a great measure of speed, it's enough to ballpark into seeing that the 2600k has some life left in it. Upgrading that on such a restrictive budget when there are so many more gaping and obvious ways to improve it is, I think, a waste of money.
Do keep in mind that 2600K is an overclockable processor, so there is always the option of getting a better cooling solution and punch in a higher core clock.
 
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Offline KhronX

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2018, 01:05:27 am »
Just as a reference point, the cheapest 1080 Ti on newegg.com, as of now, is US$899.   :-BROKE  :palm:

Keep them. If you did get the GTX 1080 Ti you can dual display them.

i want to  build pc for around $1000nzd what should i get

1000 NZD=730 USD, that's not going to get you far, especially considering the evil commonwealth VAT and import tax.
Even in the US, 730 USD won't get you far.
Let's say you pay 20% on tax, you have only $600 on raw cost of the parts.
$600 can't get you a new computer that's faster than your i7 one.

At least on the local used market over here, a couple weeks ago i saw Radeon RX460 / RX560 boards for under 100eu (or even under the equivalent of US$100). Way beyond the OP's GT450, however you look at it.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 01:07:30 am by KhronX »
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Offline JustMeHere

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2018, 02:46:37 am »
Max out your RAM.  Get some SSDs.  Take a look at the new NVME drives. (https://www.kingston.com/us/ssd/consumer/SKC1000)  Consider upgrading your GPU.  Make sure your MOBO can support the new hardware (or get the best stuff you can for your MOBO.)

16 GB RAM is really the lowest you want to go with Win 10. 

The NVME SSDs have unbelievable performance.  Well over 1 Gigabyte (yes BYTE) per second performance. 
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: building a new computer
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2018, 05:32:13 am »
The GPU not so much because these can get noisy. When I ordered my Dell workstation I downgraded the GPU for a fanless model.
Fanless idle has been a common feature of recent GPUs.
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