EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 12:01:13 am
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So I went and got myself a new office, existing lab remains the same. Problem is the new office needs internet, and because this is Australia, that's $380/month.
The new office is about 600m away and kinda sorta has line of sight (some trees + maybe small corner of a building in the way).
New office has a balcony that can overlook the existing lab, but the lab is stuck in the middle of the building with the usual gyrock walls and doors, glass, and humans in the way.
I know it's likely not possible, but does anyone know if one of those several km ethernet wireless microwave thingos work in such a situation?
BTW, the new office is about the same distance from my home and would have line of sight were it not for a pesky gully.
And no, I don't have access to the roof or outside of the building for the antenna at either location.
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The only stuff I've played with is microwave links between our offices in Sydney CBD, North Ryde and Meadowbank. But you need relatively interrupted line of sight which means access to the roof.
What about an optical link? I think some of them support well over 1 Gbps. Maybe something like this at the lower end of the market: http://www.fsona.com/product.php?sec=155e (http://www.fsona.com/product.php?sec=155e)
They claim up to 3.2KM in clear air or up to 1.6KM in "extreme" rain over a full duplex 125Mbps link. Their higher end models support up to 2.5Gbps full duplex. No idea how much some of that gear would cost, but all you'd need is a clear shot through a window?
Short of that, you might be able to get away with High Power Wi-Fi with directional antennas (or "cantennas"). See: 2.4GHz power limits in Australia (http://acma.gov.au/Citizen/Consumer-info/My-connected-home/Wireless-local-area-networks/wireless-lans-in-the-24-ghz-band-faqs).
Here (http://www.ci-journal.net/index.php/ciej/article/view/487/420) is an interesting document about a 382KM 802.11 link using a pair of Linksys WRT54G routers running DD-WRT and some old satellite dishes.
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If you can't get actual line-of-sight it's pretty hopeless. You'd probably be okay through a window, but most commercial buildings attenuate microwave very effectively. Aiming might also be difficult if you go for a high-gain model.
Given the price of service and the cost of the wireless kit these days though, it might be worth a shot. 2.4GHz or even 900MHz is probably the way to go for better penetration if you wanted to give it a try, though I'm not sure of the license status for 900MHz in .au. I would look at a pair of the Ubiquiti NanoStation NSM2 (2.4G, higher gain, ~$80) or Ubiquiti NanoStation locoM9 (900MHz, lower gain, ~$120).
Microwave is definitely easier than free-space optics, but the lab being in the building core is a problem for both. No hope of roof access? It might be cheaper even if you have to rent it...
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So no line of sight?
Can you negotiate with someone who does have line of sight and borrow their balcony?
Off the wall idea: negotiate to use the internet of neighbour of the new office, and setup a VPN back to the old office (I'm assuming inter office connectivity is required)
Wireless tends to suck beyond 100m,
If you had LoS then an optical bridge would be good (as you don't have the weather issues of other situations)
£380/m, jebus, what makes internet so expensive in Australia?
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£380/m, jebus, what makes internet so expensive in Australia?
It takes a fair bit of processing to invert the bits of all the internet traffic that comes into the country. You know, because 'straya.
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The ubiquity powerbeam AC is pretty impressive, up to 25 kilometer range and the price is actually pretty damn good, and this is coming from someone who's bank account has been pinned in the negative for the best part of two years. edit: they go up to 30km actually
https://www.ubnt.com/airmax/powerbeam-ac/ (https://www.ubnt.com/airmax/powerbeam-ac/)
If you have a local retailer it might be worth trying out, even if the LOS isn't all that great.
Alternatively, kickstart your own private eevblog satellite uplink.
Just don't stand in front of it too long while it's active.
Problem is probably getting permission to install it, since it does need some LOS, although for only 600m, I wonder how well it could go through stuff.
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Alternatively, kickstart your own private eevblog satellite uplink.
Just don't stand in front of it too long while it's active.
Project Moon Bounce (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%E2%80%93Moon%E2%80%93Earth_communication)?
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2GHz and less than 1km, should be do-able but data rate directly related to S/N ratio, a high gain (dish) antenna will help, maybe even with a bit of building bounce, perhaps a local ham with 2.3ghz set up could do a trial see what the path loss is?
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For the life of me I can't remember which forum member specialises in exactly what you need Dave: P to P wireless links. Thinking either a member from Perth or Christchurch.......
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I'll have to get on the roof of the house and see if I can see the new building from the top of the TV antenna pole, if I can then it'll be free line of sight back home.
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I'll have to get on the roof of the house and see if I can see the new building from the top of the TV antenna pole, if I can then it'll be free line of sight back home.
The ubiquity kit has pole mounting hardware and everything, and it's POE so you only need to run ethernet, I'd get some outdoor rated cable so it doesn't degrade/crack in the sun, if you do go that route.
I'd also love to see a blog video setting the gear up, that would be fun to watch.
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I'd also love to see a blog video setting the gear up, that would be fun to watch.
:-+ Absolutely.
Even if its just testing distances with various bits of kit and antennas to start with, I'd love to know what works and what doesn't when it comes to 802.11b/g/n.
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The ubiquity kit has pole mounting hardware and everything, and it's POE so you only need to run ethernet, I'd get some outdoor rated cable so it doesn't degrade/crack in the sun, if you do go that route.
They sell them here, presumably all locally approved.
http://www.ubiquitishop.com.au/ (http://www.ubiquitishop.com.au/)
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I'd also love to see a blog video setting the gear up, that would be fun to watch.
:-+ Absolutely.
I should not be on the roof with my knee at the moment though!
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New office has a balcony that can overlook the existing lab, but the lab is stuck in the middle of the building with the usual gyrock walls and doors, glass, and humans in the way.
So you have access to the balcony? Can you use a push-up mast there?
Or maybe you can put a mast up at home to get over the gully?
The Ubiquity dual polarity 900 MHz and 5 GHz products are were I would start. 2.4GHz has too much interference to bother with in an urban area. The 5 GHz equipment is very cheap so not much of an investment is needed for testing. 900 MHz is more useful for getting through trees so probably less useful for you. Stick with directional antennas for their much lower susceptibility to multipath and interfering transmitters.
I use the now old Ubiquity 2.4 GHz Nanobeam shown below to snarf emergency internet off of the local coffee shops at a range of more than 600 meters through trees, windows, and walls.
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So you have access to the balcony? Can you use a push-up mast there?
No.
Or maybe you can put a mast up at home to get over the gully?
Maybe, I already have a tall TV antenna.
I use the now old Ubiquity 2.4 GHz Nanobeam shown below to snarf emergency internet off of the local coffee shops at a range of more than 600 meters through trees, windows, and walls.
Neat.
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I'd also love to see a blog video setting the gear up, that would be fun to watch.
:-+ Absolutely.
I should not be on the roof with my knee at the moment though!
Ah, I wasn't aware you had knee problems, haven't been on the eevblog youtube channel yet, was catching up on lots of other channels after playing games more. Hopefully it's nothing too serious.
I'd gladly lend you a hand but might be cheaper to just get a local handyman lol
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I use Mikrotik equipment for that... Very good prices, even 10-15 km no problems..
But line of sight is.. although i did bounce of the third point on an occasion..
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Ah, I wasn't aware you had knee problems, haven't been on the eevblog youtube channel yet, was catching up on lots of other channels after playing games more. Hopefully it's nothing too serious.
It's pretty serious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw5hkZ8ZAz8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw5hkZ8ZAz8)
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How fast does the Internet need to be?
I keep thinking of crazy ideas such as connecting a modem to a licence free radio transceiver which would cover long distances but it would only work at dial-up speeds.
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This thread actually got me thinking and I did a little rough plotting on Google Earth (see attached elevation diagram; measurements are above sea level).
I'm wondering if I'll be able to get a WiFi link going between my house and a mates place. I think I'd be able to easily get a relatively clear line of sight to his roof (might be a few trees in the way). The distance between the two sites is about 50 kilometres though. Hmmm...
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8ft dishes and 6GHz carrier frequencies should give you very good availability :-+
We have links over 60km over water with such configurations and they work very well :)
For Dave's issue I would check these guys: http://www.fastbacknetworks.com/5g/ (http://www.fastbacknetworks.com/5g/)
BR
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Hmm, how about IP over carrier pigeon? Latency is a bit of a problem, but bandwidth could be incredible.
Or these days, maybe you could do IP over Pidgey? Pay some kids to walk back and forth between your house and the new office carrying flash drives. Tell them they can play Pokemon go while they walk ... think of all the eggs they could hatch!
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Ah, I wasn't aware you had knee problems, haven't been on the eevblog youtube channel yet, was catching up on lots of other channels after playing games more. Hopefully it's nothing too serious.
It's pretty serious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw5hkZ8
ZAz8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw5hkZ8ZAz8)
Oh man, that sucks.
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I keep thinking of crazy ideas such as connecting a modem to a licence free radio transceiver which would cover long distances but it would only work at dial-up speeds.
You're basically describing the 802.11 products mentioned here :P.
I'm wondering if I'll be able to get a WiFi link going between my house and a mates place. I think I'd be able to easily get a relatively clear line of sight to his roof (might be a few trees in the way). The distance between the two sites is about 50 kilometres though. Hmmm...
Pretty doable with off-the-shelf gear these days, and for not-that-crazy money. Ubiquiti AirFiber kit can get you to 100km or so at pretty good performance. You might find aiming a challenge.
Keep in mind that the Earth is curved, and over these kind of distances, that matters a lot, so your Google Earth elevation profile is not that useful to determine if you will have line of sight, since it is plotting vs. sea level. You also need to consider the Fresnel zones at the frequency you will be using, as these should also be clear of obstruction. You can use SPLAT! (http://www.qsl.net/kd2bd/splat.html) to plot this properly. There's a web interface here where you can enter the coordinates, HAGL and frequency and get the plots: http://hltcoe.jhu.edu/splat/ecuindex.html (http://hltcoe.jhu.edu/splat/ecuindex.html). Will also give you free-space path loss and other information you can use to calculate your link budget. And obviously regardless of what the terrain looks like, you can't shoot through buildings :P.
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I wonder if you have line of sight, if attenuating a laser and picking it back up on a photodiode would be reasonable to try and build yourself. This came up on a search:
https://www.black-box.eu/en-int/page/22198/Solutions-Industries/Technology-products/Networking-Solutions/wireless-networking/laserlink-fso-and-rf-bridges (https://www.black-box.eu/en-int/page/22198/Solutions-Industries/Technology-products/Networking-Solutions/wireless-networking/laserlink-fso-and-rf-bridges)
Here is a used bridge for about $2k:
http://southernsurplusinc.com/laserbit-100mbps-wireless-internet-ethernet-bridge-free-space-optical-laser-link-15100900 (http://southernsurplusinc.com/laserbit-100mbps-wireless-internet-ethernet-bridge-free-space-optical-laser-link-15100900)
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that's the best option,
a laser link looks like a pair of oversized binoculars on pole-mounts.
far better than blasting yourself and others with microwaves - that's not safe.
in your case, it may interfere with some lab equipment too.
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far better than blasting yourself and others with microwaves - that's not safe.
in your case, it may interfere with some lab equipment too.
We'd only be talking milliwatts, hardly a danger to anyone. We all get bombarded daily with 2.4 and 5GHz access points. In fact a directional antenna would lessen the exposure if you're that worried about it. As Dave mentioned, he's not in a position to start mounting high power microwave links on the roof or walls of the building.
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We'd only be talking milliwatts
200-600mW
In fact a directional antenna would lessen the exposure if you're that worried about it.
no, it would concentrate the energy on the target building instead of it radiating outwards equally in all directions.
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no, it would concentrate the energy on the target building instead of it radiating outwards equally in all directions.
Free space path loss says hello.
You're talking nanowatts by the time you get to a distant target.
Even in the near field, there's a reason why this stuff is readily available off the shelf - it's heavily regulated to be safe.
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no it's not - there are rules in some country's, and those rules are often broken.
i have a TP-Link unit that can go several times the limit,
i see much more powerfull devices on ebay from china all the time.
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On the basis that it's cheap, might be worth trying a couple of wireless routers with very directional antennas perhaps ?
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You also need to consider the Fresnel zones at the frequency you will be using, as these should also be clear of obstruction.
A particular nasty is that you can get reflections from the ground.
I've seen someone try to communicate across 300m clear line of sight (on an airfield) at 2.4GHz using readily available directional antennas 20ft and 30ft off the ground. When it worked it worked, but when the antenna was moved it ceased to work.
The problem appeared to be fresnel zone reflections, but I was not able to test nor confirm that.
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We'd only be talking milliwatts
200-600mW
In fact a directional antenna would lessen the exposure if you're that worried about it.
no, it would concentrate the energy on the target building instead of it radiating outwards equally in all directions.
Yes and? Still well within "safe" limits by several orders of magnitude. Even if you ramped up your TP Link router to its absolute maximum and slept next to it, it's still no where near powerful enough to cause any adverse health problems. There are numerous reputable studies out there (take your pick) and they all conclude that your Wi-Fi won't damage your DNA or cause cancer. The amount of chilli I ate in my lunch today probably poses far higher risk of cancer (yet I continue to eat stupid amounts of it because the positives by far outweigh the negatives).
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I advice people on a daily basis about this stuff.
It really depends on the speed you need. Line of sight not so important but highly recommended as long as you dont need to go through concrete buildings or ground. Trees are fine.
You're looking ubiquiti or mikrotik outdoor 5Ghz wireless AC links. Depending on how reliable and how much bandwidth you want you're not just looking at a single link but multiple which you can combine. The simplest way is to stick them ontop the building corner attaching either a directional or dish like antenna (i recommend dish).
The laws for directional wifi are different than omni directional. With omni directional all the energy is spread around whereas with directional all the energy is focused so you do not want to sleep next to it with your head in the line of sight. Directional point to point wifi links are allowed much higher transmit power.
Installation requires 2 people, 1 at both ends to get them pointing to each other. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG-AZz_nm5E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG-AZz_nm5E) a famous example.
As long as there is some sort of line of sight between 2 points than it is fine. You can put a tower or long rod to mount the dish and AP on.
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Like I said before, I use Mikrotik for these kind of things.
They have whole spectrum of equipment from entry level to pro grade.
They even have a new integrated LHG 5 that has 300mW power and 24.5 dB antenna.. Here in Croatia for a pair of those you would pay around 100 euro..
And they will do many km ...
They have representative in Australia..
I don't work for them or am in any way affiliated... Just really like the equipment.. Good, reliable, simple, powerful, inexpensive..
Have a good one...
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I advice people on a daily basis about this stuff.
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Directional point to point wifi links are allowed much higher transmit power.
Reference, please.
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I advice people on a daily basis about this stuff.
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Directional point to point wifi links are allowed much higher transmit power.
Reference, please.
It depends on the country... for Australia and 2.4GHz....
What radiated power limits apply to devices operating in the 2.4 GHz band?
For operation of devices under the LIPD class licence a maximum radiated power of:
four watts EIRP is authorised in the 2.4 – 2.4835 GHz band for digital modulation transmitters
500 milliwatts EIRP is authorised in the 2.4 – 2.4835 GHz band for frequency hopping transmitters that use a minimum of 15 hopping frequencies
four watts EIRP is authorised in the 2.4 – 2.4835 GHz band for frequency hopping transmitters that use a minimum of 75 hopping frequencies
one watt EIRP is authorised in the 2.4 - 2.45 GHz band for telecommand and telemetry transmitters and radiofrequency identification transmitters
10 milliwatts EIRP is authorised in the 2.4 - 2.4835 GHz band for all other transmitters
In addition the LIPD class licence and associated Short Range Devices (SRD) standard include power spectral density limits that must be complied with.
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I advice people on a daily basis about this stuff.
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Directional point to point wifi links are allowed much higher transmit power.
Reference, please.
snbforums.com
Feel free to go there and ask all your networking questions. Not sure if EEVblog has the skill to use mikrotik.
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So, it is as I remembered, and the statement "Directional point to point wifi links are allowed much higher transmit power." is completely false.
The maximum power is defined in terms of EIRP. Now, EIRP = Pt + G, where Pt is the transmitter power and G is the antenna gain. If you increase the antenna gain, the permissable transmitter power decreases proportionately. You cannot increase the power emitted towards a receiver by increasing the transmittter antenna gain.
That makes sense. If you are a third party, the interference you suffer is proportional to the power transmitted towards your victim antenna; the power transmitted in other directions is completely irrelevant. Basing the limits on EIRP means you cannot be (legally) buggered by someone that uses a high gain transmitter antenna. OTOH, having a high gain receiver antenna is entirely legal, and reduces interference and multipath effects.
I don't regard info on SmallNetBuilderForums as authoratative, any more than I regard info on EEVForum as authoratative.
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It really depends on the speed you need. Line of sight not so important but highly recommended as long as you dont need to go through concrete buildings or ground. Trees are fine.
I'm in the middle of a concrete and glass building. No concrete walls, but plenty of pillars. i would have to go through my office glass then another maybe 30m or so of office, furniture, doors, humans, whatever and then the external building glass.
As long as there is some sort of line of sight between 2 points than it is fine. You can put a tower or long rod to mount the dish and AP on.
Unfortunately I can't. No poles, no roofs.
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How about offering one of the neighbouring companies to contribute towards the cost of their broadband if you can piggy back on it?
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Unfortunately I can't. No poles, no roofs.
But is there anyone else there on a Sunday...?
Buildings usually have a few random antennas on - who'll notice another one...?
Just sayin'.... ;)
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Is the glass tinted? Some have a metalised coating which is pretty lossy.
At 2-5GHz 30m is quite a lot of cable loss, could you get the dish and supporting electronics just behind the window? A "satellite" dish pointed the 'wrong way' makes a pretty good microwave antenna.
I use a satellite roof dish for my 10GHz Ham set up, it supported voice (pretty slow data rate really) with 1W RF over about 30km (line of sight) but was also able to pick up a presumed bounce off an electricity switching station (lots of metal structures) on the top of a hill about 45degrees off the direct path.
As the old Hams say, it's all about the antenna.
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Glass and wood are totally fine, I've used simple omni 5Ghz AC wifi through 4 walls.Even if the glass contains metallic compounds the thickness would not be sufficient to significantly hamper a directional point to point signal.
Concrete pillars dont really block unless they form a faraday cage through the metal supports and roofs.
Concrete walls can be significant depending on thicknaess.
If you have no issues getting good 4G signals deep in a building than theres hope for you yet.
Its still best to place them on rooftops. If you ordered satellite TV they would go on roof tops so go for it, get some ladders and perhaps a bit of help.
In a city lasers are a poor way for point to point links but wifi does better because you can still connect even with a few obstacles if the range isnt too great.
If that still doesnt work than your only option is building to building intranet provided by an ISP. So line from building to cabinets to the other building. Essentially it will be a layer 2 link wired by some provider/ISP or if it has to go through their central point of their network of an area than it will be some sort of vpn or PPP link.
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Line of sight not so important but highly recommended as long as you dont need to go through concrete buildings or ground. Trees are fine.
Glass and wood are totally fine, I've used simple omni 5Ghz AC wifi through 4 walls.
This sounds encouraging, I'm assuming this means that anything that uses 5GHz can handle a few trees?
I just realized a few days ago that I have line-of-sight from a cabin on a nearby hilltop to my apartment building (2.5 km), but with trees blocking the view from my windows in that direction. Time to go hiking with a directional antenna and see what works.
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A couple of Ubiquiti NanoStation loco M5 units should do the job for you. They are reputed to be good for > 10km.
I've installed 3 pairs of them and they have just worked. Two of the links are through trees. One is clear line of sight.
Only problem was after a bad storm one link was down. The POE injector on one end failed and had to be replaced. On the other end the GFI had tripped. A reset of the GFI and it was up and running.
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This sounds encouraging, I'm assuming this means that anything that uses 5GHz can handle a few trees?
Unfortunately not.
Consider that
- leaves are somewhat conductive and somewhat lossy
- window/chaff works by absorbing and re-radiating microwave radiation at the fibres' resonant frequency
- some leaves on some trees are at or near the relevant frequency; obviously that depends on the frequency (2.4/5.7GHz in this case), and the tree species
- some conifers's leaves are even shaped ike chaff/window!
So the attenuation due to leaves can significantly depend on season (deciduous leaves), weather (wet/dry), frequency, and species (leaf dimensions).
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With wifi every obstacle significantly decreases distance. This means your 10km capable link may only be 1km capable.
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Is the glass tinted? Some have a metalised coating which is pretty lossy.
At 2-5GHz 30m is quite a lot of cable loss, could you get the dish and supporting electronics just behind the window?
No, that would require access to another persons office and dropping the antenna down into their office
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Its still best to place them on rooftops. If you ordered satellite TV they would go on roof tops so go for it, get some ladders and perhaps a bit of help.
It's not that easy. I'm several floors down from the roof and need access to the comms cupboards, the roof, the cable ducts etc. This is a huge commercial office building.
Not to mention totally against strata policy. It would be a massive job.
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Hacked this together for fun. Old router, discarded direct tv dish, discarded camera stand, antenna is bent from copper wire and backed with aluminum over corrugated plastic.
http://imgur.com/a/7zDCD (http://imgur.com/a/7zDCD)
People have reached well over 15km with similar setups, with a good connection, using two of them in line of sight.
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I'm in the middle of a concrete and glass building. No concrete walls, but plenty of pillars. i would have to go through my office glass then another maybe 30m or so of office, furniture, doors, humans, whatever and then the external building glass.
Could you sneak a cable though the ceiling void to the edge of the building...
A small child might come in handy ;D
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I'm in the middle of a concrete and glass building. No concrete walls, but plenty of pillars. i would have to go through my office glass then another maybe 30m or so of office, furniture, doors, humans, whatever and then the external building glass.
Could you sneak a cable though the ceiling void to the edge of the building...
A small child might come in handy ;D
An RC truck with lights and a camera would be more fun, and has been done. Trouble is there are likely fire walls that seal off the units, so no easy access. Might be worth trying to set up an rf transmitter at the old site and take a spectrum analyzer to the new office to see what gets thru. Just need someone/way to trigger the xmit so you can ID it. Maybe a local Ham could help to see how well shielded your current building is. What kind of RF can you pick up now?
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Ubiquiti & Mikotek pretty big in wisp arena.
Can you not just get a basic dsl service? No dsl2? Around 50-60 a month on naked.
Alternatively a 3g data service. Not sure what your doing in the new office.
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Can you not just get a basic dsl service? No dsl2? Around 50-60 a month on naked.
Alternatively a 3g data service. Not sure what your doing in the new office.
I can't see any form of DSL or 3G being capable of delivering the speed Dave needs.
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If you can't get outside the building at the lab, realistically you're not going to be able to aim a decent antenna, let alone get a consistent link through everything in the way. Back to the house is the best bet if you can get line of sight.
Can you not just get a basic dsl service? No dsl2? Around 50-60 a month on naked.
Alternatively a 3g data service. Not sure what your doing in the new office.
I can't see any form of DSL or 3G being capable of delivering the speed Dave needs.
What, you mean 300/50Mbps isn't sufficient?
There's a lot more to DSL than the junk services you may have been offered. Be careful with blanket statements. Even '3G' (HSPA+ to be precise) can offer quite high rates..
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Not sure why people are saying he needs to climb up the walls or stuff like that to get the cable to the roof, he can just dangle it through a window and let it fall up there, if he had window access that is.
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If you can't get outside the building at the lab, realistically you're not going to be able to aim a decent antenna, let alone get a consistent link through everything in the way. Back to the house is the best bet if you can get line of sight.
Can you not just get a basic dsl service? No dsl2? Around 50-60 a month on naked.
Alternatively a 3g data service. Not sure what your doing in the new office.
I can't see any form of DSL or 3G being capable of delivering the speed Dave needs.
What, you mean 300/50Mbps isn't sufficient?
There's a lot more to DSL than the junk services you may have been offered. Be careful with blanket statements. Even '3G' (HSPA+ to be precise) can offer quite high rates..
Let me rephrase, then.....
I can't see any form of DSL or 3G that I have seen offered here in Sydney being capable of delivering the speed Dave needs.
Australia isn't exactly at the forefront of high speed, low cost internet. The NBN seems to hold some promise of that, but don't hold your breath ... unless you happen to be in a privileged service pocket.
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there are lots of ways to covertly run cables down in a building,
one i like is running it down the inside of extractor ducting.
you often find a big extractor fan on the roof - drill into the ducting just below the fan area, and run the cable in - it will drop down till it reaches the desired floor.
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If you can snake a Cat6 cable ( LZH plenum rated one) out into the corridor and lead it to the edge of the building facing the new space you can use a POE enabled RF link ( any of the Ubiquiti products noted above) and aim through the side sheeting ( if not aluminium cladding) or window at the other place, using a broader beam antenna. Other side the high gain antenna will get the SNR down to make the link usable.
Turn on encryption and use a really long passphrase, and it should work.
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If you can snake a Cat6 cable ( LZH plenum rated one) out into the corridor and lead it to the edge of the building facing the new space you can use a POE enabled RF link ( any of the Ubiquiti products noted above) and aim through the side sheeting ( if not aluminium cladding) or window at the other place, using a broader beam antenna. Other side the high gain antenna will get the SNR down to make the link usable.
That might be possible.
This maybe?
http://www.ubiquitishop.com.au/125_85_bullet_m5_titanium_5ghz.product (http://www.ubiquitishop.com.au/125_85_bullet_m5_titanium_5ghz.product)
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Not sure why people are saying he needs to climb up the walls or stuff like that to get the cable to the roof, he can just dangle it through a window and let it fall up there, if he had window access that is.
It's a big commercial office building with glass curtain wall, no opening windows. My office is in the middle surrounded by other offices that have the windows.
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What, you mean 300/50Mbps isn't sufficient?
There's a lot more to DSL than the junk services you may have been offered. Be careful with blanket statements. Even '3G' (HSPA+ to be precise) can offer quite high rates..
You obviously don't live in Australia ;D
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Can you not just get a basic dsl service? No dsl2? Around 50-60 a month on naked.
No phone outlets, new modern building with an ISP monopoly. Only ethernet comes into the office.
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So I went and got myself a new office, existing lab remains the same. Problem is the new office needs internet, and because this is Australia, that's $380/month.
The new office is about 600m away and kinda sorta has line of sight (some trees + maybe small corner of a building in the way).
New office has a balcony that can overlook the existing lab, but the lab is stuck in the middle of the building with the usual gyrock walls and doors, glass, and humans in the way.
I know it's likely not possible, but does anyone know if one of those several km ethernet wireless microwave thingos work in such a situation?
If you can fit the antenna on the balcony it would be worth a try with standard Wifi routers and a narrow angle antenna. If it works it should be doable to get a cable to your office on top of the false ceiling (unless there is a fire proof barrier in the way).
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Not sure why people are saying he needs to climb up the walls or stuff like that to get the cable to the roof, he can just dangle it through a window and let it fall up there, if he had window access that is.
It's a big commercial office building with glass curtain wall, no opening windows. My office is in the middle surrounded by other offices that have the windows.
Hence the "if he had window access that is".
I'm not sure why though but I always got the impression you were in a basement level, maybe due to the talk in some videos about poor rf signals, or that emergency beacon, or the dumpster diving episodes.""If you can snake a Cat6 cable ( LZH plenum rated one) out into the corridor and lead it to the edge of the building facing the new space you can use a POE enabled RF link ( any of the Ubiquiti products noted above) and aim through the side sheeting ( if not aluminium cladding) or window at the other place, using a broader beam antenna. Other side the high gain antenna will get the SNR down to make the link usable.
That might be possible.
Queue mission impossible themed episode. We might even get to see you fight off a giant spider in the vent!
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If you can fit the antenna on the balcony it would be worth a try with standard Wifi routers and a narrow angle antenna. If it works it should be doable to get a cable to your office on top of the false ceiling (unless there is a fire proof barrier in the way).
No fire proof barrier in the drop ceiling.
I've done a video on that here
https://youtu.be/AwO1btddJkU?t=3m5s
But standard Wifi at 600M through all that stuff? Even with a high gain antenna, I doubt that will work.
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The distance isn't the problem with directional antennas. A co-worker of mine claimed >3km with standard routers and DIY antennas. The obstructions could be the problem but you don't know until you try.
http://www.simplewifi.com/antennabasics.html (http://www.simplewifi.com/antennabasics.html)
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These look worth a try:
http://www.ubiquitishop.com.au/226_0_loco_m5.product (http://www.ubiquitishop.com.au/226_0_loco_m5.product)
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EEVblog, many outdoor point to point wifi devices are very small, you attach the dish and the device itself than just run ethernet from it to inside the building. Power will be using POE on that ethernet cable so keep it below 30m. Its minimal enough to the point that you could glue it to the wall. Try to see about mountings on roofs just like if you were to get satellite tv.
Or you could try get ask an ISP for a building to building wire link which is basically layer 2 through their cabinets/network so speed depends on what medium they use.
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If you can fit the antenna on the balcony it would be worth a try with standard Wifi routers and a narrow angle antenna. If it works it should be doable to get a cable to your office on top of the false ceiling (unless there is a fire proof barrier in the way).
No fire proof barrier in the drop ceiling.
I've done a video on that here
https://youtu.be/AwO1btddJkU?t=3m5s
But standard Wifi at 600M through all that stuff? Even with a high gain antenna, I doubt that will work.
If there is no barrier, then a cable could potentially be run to the other side of the stuff....
Another thought - how about a high-gain antenna just below the ceiling level - this would above any obstructions in other offices.
Possible issue is a high power direcitonal signal may reflect locally and affect other offices' wifi...
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It's not that easy. I'm several floors down from the roof and need access to the comms cupboards, the roof, the cable ducts etc. This is a huge commercial office building.
Not to mention totally against strata policy. It would be a massive job.
Maybe a combination of AC-powerline to the roof/wall/other, and sattellite from there on?
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These look worth a try:
http://www.ubiquitishop.com.au/226_0_loco_m5.product (http://www.ubiquitishop.com.au/226_0_loco_m5.product)
This seems to be a 5GHz link. 2.4GHz is better because it has less problems with obstructions.
Either way I'd try it with a pair of old Wifi routers and cheap antennas using a laptop from the balcony first. If it works then you could invest in some proper gear.
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Dave,
Both the ubiquity and 'Mikrotek SXT 5 ac' will, if you can get LoS - give you a strong stable connection. I have direct experience of the SXT 5 ac routers and use a pair to give me a pretty good 40-50MB/s link between my father in laws house, with fiber and our little cottage. This is not that far (200ft) but it does goes through both walls since windows dont allow for LoS and we did not want to start putting up anything on the external surfaces. Amazon tend to sell them for a good price.
Something else is that they produce a narrow beam version - which is great for a 'cable replacement' use case.
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What, you mean 300/50Mbps isn't sufficient?
There's a lot more to DSL than the junk services you may have been offered. Be careful with blanket statements. Even '3G' (HSPA+ to be precise) can offer quite high rates..
You obviously don't live in Australia ;D
Oh, I'm aware it's an internet backwater. It's just the 'any form of' statement is ridiculous.
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Since your can't install any outdoor antennas or FSO units at one office, and the windows presumably got a sun protection coating which attenuates any WLAN signal by several dB, it's not going to be easy to find any wireless solution. How much would a direct telephone line (pair of copper wires) between both offices cost? DSL master/slave modems don't cost much, a pair is about 200 up to 400 bucks.
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Drain rods are great for pushing cable over areas that you don't have access to, although I'd first clingfilm an antenna that you may want to drag back later, stop it getting snagged.
Signal depends on if building has concrete sidewalls on a level with the drop ceiling.
It would be a hell of a lot easier just to ask a window office if you could use a corner of their window for your antenna.
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Yeah - finding the optimum office and asking the tenant nicely might be a viable option
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I have not worked with any of these setups before (would love to, sounds fun, just don't have anywhere that I need them) so my advice may be null, but maybe try to look into something that operates at like 900mhz or something. I think that will go through walls better. The hard part is aiming the indoor one. I guess there might be some way to calculate angle based on GPS coords and altitude. I don't imagine the speeds would be all that great though but better than nothing.
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Too much over thinking things. Just hack into the neighbours wifi/cat5 and be done with it.
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Are you the only one with this need?
As a group you might be able to do something.
Might think of community network in the buildings that then has many connections to ISP's.
below are links to what a city did, building could do similar and save costs.
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/06/what-if-switching-fiber-isps-was-as-easy-as-clicking-a-mouse/ (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/06/what-if-switching-fiber-isps-was-as-easy-as-clicking-a-mouse/)
Box used at house in this system.
http://nebula.wsimg.com/64d3f3a240a8dd8baa07ac94d927a423?AccessKeyId=271CF39A6BCEFBB43830&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 (http://nebula.wsimg.com/64d3f3a240a8dd8baa07ac94d927a423?AccessKeyId=271CF39A6BCEFBB43830&disposition=0&alloworigin=1)
This box lets you have many networks over one fiber all safely separated.
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What, you mean 300/50Mbps isn't sufficient?
There's a lot more to DSL than the junk services you may have been offered. Be careful with blanket statements. Even '3G' (HSPA+ to be precise) can offer quite high rates..
You obviously don't live in Australia ;D
Oh, I'm aware it's an internet backwater. It's just the 'any form of' statement is ridiculous.
You do noy live in South Africa, where anything over 386k is considered broadband. Mobile data use is almost higher than fixed, simply because you might approach 7M on mobile ( LOS to the site, low utilisation of the site sector antenna, you have a semi uncapped data plan so you do not have to hock the family jewels to pay the monthly bill) as opposed to the others. Fibre is both spotty, and expensive, but you can get it ( at a price, they only have to compete with the incumbent Telco monopoly) if you pay the install cost.
Still waiting for the price to fall enough to get it for myself, so DSL it is, a step over the old method of dial up internet, which still has a pretty big pool of users here.
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Are you the only one with this need?
As a group you might be able to do something.
Might think of community network in the buildings that then has many connections to ISP's.
I did. I negotiated the current fibre to be installed into my building. Just for me at the time, but I promised to recruit others in the building and I did.
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UPDATE:
UPDATE:
I'm speaking this this mob:
https://www.vocus.com.au (https://www.vocus.com.au)
They have a data centre in Bella Vista (my business park) and are getting a quote for installed a fibre into my lab building and the new building.
250M/250M for the price of my current 20M/20M and with no data cap!
They recon if it cost less than $40k to install then they will do it at no cost to me. Apparently my building had already been earmarked as a potential site for them.
That could radically change what I do and the way I do it. e.g. I can't stream all the time in HD because I have a 500GB monthly cap.
Too bad I can't get TPG fibre, I found a list of building in Sydney that have it, plenty except my business park of course ::)
https://www.finder.com.au/tpg-fttb (https://www.finder.com.au/tpg-fttb)
https://www.tpg.com.au/business/fibre_400 (https://www.tpg.com.au/business/fibre_400)
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What, you mean 300/50Mbps isn't sufficient?
There's a lot more to DSL than the junk services you may have been offered. Be careful with blanket statements. Even '3G' (HSPA+ to be precise) can offer quite high rates..
You obviously don't live in Australia ;D
Oh, I'm aware it's an internet backwater. It's just the 'any form of' statement is ridiculous.
Hence my rephrase.
But my original statement, if made in front of Aussie consumers, would have received nods of agreement.
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Since your can't install any outdoor antennas or FSO units at one office, and the windows presumably got a sun protection coating which attenuates any WLAN signal by several dB, it's not going to be easy to find any wireless solution. How much would a direct telephone line (pair of copper wires) between both offices cost? DSL master/slave modems don't cost much, a pair is about 200 up to 400 bucks.
There's an idea, rig up a pneumatic launcher, tie some ethernet to it, aim high and shoot it onto the roof of the next building.
Even better make it steel wire armored, have someone on the opposing side to tie it off, and zip line across to finish the install.
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UPDATE:
Just got a call from TPG, and my how things have changed since I last delt with them and they laughed at me.
They actually have fibre access in my lab building!
But not the Fibre400 plan, but the Fibre Ethernet plans.
They can do the same 20M/20M plan I am currently on for the same $400 /month I'm paying now, but unlimited data instead of the 500GB cap I'm on now.
That lone would change things for me in terms of what I can do.
If anything, ammunition to go back to my current provider and ask for unlimited data.
50M/50M is $700/month.
They can't do my new building.
Vocus are visiting me tomorrow though, and if that works out, then it'll be happy times.
Still not sure about the new office internet though, but a lab internet upgrade for no extra sounds :-+ (my current two year plan has just expired too)
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Sounds like excellent haggling time, lots of ammo! :-+
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symmetrical internet is really nice to have, very good for what you're doing. I think for yourself get as much upload as you can without bias (no traffic management bs).
The other cool thing you should try is a file server with computing power to compile and index your videos. A lot of youtube tutorial videos dont index making it difficult to find things. It is a lot faster to scroll words by date/category compared to youtube's style of mainly showing the thumbnail and name of video with the other details very small.
I thought australia was still stuck on adsl. If you get fibre optics right into your office consider one of those non consumer routers with SFP as they're usually much better than modems that do more than just convert media.
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You can own a Tagarno you can won this
https://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/ (https://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/)
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Dave, if you ever were to get yourself a router stay away from ubiquiti edgerouters as their featureset and performance is the same as consumer routers. Once you start using all those advance features the performance dips very very low to their rated "wirespeed". They also dont show the necessary information to customers and do unfair comparisons. No router from ubiquiti will do more than 200Mb/s without some hardware acceleration.
mikrotik on the other hand dont really bother with the hardware acceleration crap but are actually the most flexible with it.
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I thought australia was still stuck on adsl. If you get fibre optics right into your office consider one of those non consumer routers with SFP as they're usually much better than modems that do more than just convert media.
A lot of areas are limited to ADSL for a wired connection. You can get cable to a lot of the urban areas - but you have to check.
Connecting to fibre is still a dream for the vast majority. FTTP is on the wish list. FTTN with the last hop being copper - or even wireless - is the only generally available option, but the distribution across even populated areas is nothing short of bizarre - and illogical.
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A nice ARM dual-core router around US$ 150-200 and supported by OpenWrt has a proper throughput and tons of features. And beware of SOHO routers (Netgear, D-Link etc.) claiming to support IPv6. Most got only a laughable subset of IPv6 features. Recently I've seen several without the possibility to configure the IPv6 firewall. Just two fixed rules:
- allow new connections outbound
- allow traffic for established connections inbound
|O
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mikrotik has a good ipv6 implementation coupled with layer 2 firewall and NAT capabilities as well. Droidsheep,pineapple hak5 wont work on a network that utilises layer 2 firewall with RADIUS.
the best a dual core ARM router will do (IPQ8064) is 500Mb/s of software NAT. the broadcom dual ARM A9 routers do up to 300Mb/s of software NAT. So when you install openwrt those are the speeds you will get but they are still faster than ubiquiti edgerouters. infact mikrotik has an ipq8064 product, the RB3011 with 2 switch chips with each switch chip having 2Gb/s to the CPU. All other routers only have 1Gb/s from switch chip to CPU.
Netgear has good hardware but poor firmware. They make excellent platforms for 3rd party firmware if you want good hardware.
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For 1Gbps a small PC with pfSense is also a nice option.
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or a mikrotik CCR1009 which gives you plenty of ethernet ports, SFP/SFP+ depending on model, fanless available for a few Gb/s of software NAT.
Still which you choose depends on what you want from a router. I myself have the CCR1036 which is overkill because the fastest UK internet doesnt register any CPU usage on it (am not using hardware acceleration either).
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No router from ubiquiti will do more than 200Mb/s without some hardware acceleration.
mikrotik on the other hand dont really bother with the hardware acceleration crap but are actually the most flexible with it.
I don't know why you're spreading FUD, but Ubiquiti EdgeRouter is a fairly beefy Cavium Octeon, same as Juniper SRX and some Cisco ASA. It can do > 1000 Kpps. I have tested both these boxes, and both perform reasonably well up to several Gbps. For a simple CPE router job like Dave's, either is overkill and will do just fine.
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Let's not get too distracted with routers and such ... until we get a connection sorted.
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Has anyone had a play with the Mikrotik DynaDish 5? I can't find any reliable specs/data on the kind of distances you can achieve with this device.
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Has anyone had a play with the Mikrotik DynaDish 5? I can't find any reliable specs/data on the kind of distances you can achieve with this device.
Well it has 1W and 25dB antenna... 10-12 km full speed, 20 something max... If all is perfect... And a sniper to align antennas ..
Didn't try to see what are the extremes...
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UPDATE:
Just got a call from TPG, and my how things have changed since I last delt with them and they laughed at me.
They actually have fibre access in my lab building!
But not the Fibre400 plan, but the Fibre Ethernet plans.
They can do the same 20M/20M plan I am currently on for the same $400 /month I'm paying now, but unlimited data instead of the 500GB cap I'm on now.
That lone would change things for me in terms of what I can do.
If anything, ammunition to go back to my current provider and ask for unlimited data.
50M/50M is $700/month.
They can't do my new building.
Vocus are visiting me tomorrow though, and if that works out, then it'll be happy times.
Still not sure about the new office internet though, but a lab internet upgrade for no extra sounds :-+ (my current two year plan has just expired too)
20/20 for 400 dollars and 500GB cap. I want to cry for you right now. In the US, not only would nobody buy that, the company would run into the ground within 5 seconds of opening up the bloody door.
I live in a semi mweh area of the US (Near Albany) where we can get 90/90 FiOS for about I think 90 a month. I never see the bill, but I think for TV, VoIP phone, and 90/90 internet we pay around 120-150 a month.
But 20/20 at 400 dollars, I would collapse in an exasperated heap if I had that. And data caps make me want to wring the neck of an ostrich, that's just stupid.
But I guess if the closest land is in Asia, you have to deal with that. Glad to hear you might be getting things sorted out.
But MAN I almost want to string an ethernet cable to you.
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Turns out the new building has both Vocus and TPG fibres in there.
TPG can do 20M/20M unlimited for $400/month, same price as my current plan, but unlimited data.
Vocus can do 200M/200M for $380/month unlimited data.
Complete no-brainer decision, Vocus are 10 times better value.
They said the fibre into my lab building will cost $38k, under their target price, but they still want me to find a few other takers to make it worthwhile for them.
Vocus also have a data centre in my business park and offer full business grade SLA etc. So I'm trying to recruit others now...
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Turns out the new building has both Vocus and TPG fibres in there.
TPG can do 20M/20M unlimited for $400/month, same price as my current plan, but unlimited data.
Vocus can do 200M/200M for $380/month unlimited data.
Complete no-brainer decision, Vocus are 10 times better value.
They said the fibre into my lab building will cost $38k, under their target price, but they still want me to find a few other takers to make it worthwhile for them.
Vocus also have a data centre in my business park and offer full business grade SLA etc. So I'm trying to recruit others now...
Holy crap TPG needs to get their shit together.
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This product will solve your problem
https://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/ (https://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/)
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Impressive deal. So long as their SLAs are good and indicative of the reliability, it is a no-brainer.
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Turns out the new building has both Vocus and TPG fibres in there.
TPG can do 20M/20M unlimited for $400/month, same price as my current plan, but unlimited data.
Vocus can do 200M/200M for $380/month unlimited data.
Complete no-brainer decision, Vocus are 10 times better value.
They said the fibre into my lab building will cost $38k, under their target price, but they still want me to find a few other takers to make it worthwhile for them.
Vocus also have a data centre in my business park and offer full business grade SLA etc. So I'm trying to recruit others now...
..so they're wanting you to do their marketing for them....? What commission do they pay?
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This product will solve your problem
https://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/ (https://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/)
Not without line of sight it won't. ::)
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This product will solve your problem
https://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/ (https://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/)
Jesus christ I thought 25km was impressive. I bet you could cook stuff on that thing.
Also imagine lining it up lol
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..so they're wanting you to do their marketing for them....? What commission do they pay?
Sure, but bugger-all work on my part, and quite frankly it would be more productive coming from me. People cold calling isn't going to get anywhere.
And after all, I'm the one that needs the connection, so if this help me get that then it's well worth it. i could tell them to stick it and do it themselves but that risks them walking away from it all.
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Some WMAN products support NLOS, but you might have to license a frequency from your local communications office. Sometimes large business buildings work quite well as reflector for wireless links. It's trial and error ;)
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These look worth a try:
http://www.ubiquitishop.com.au/226_0_loco_m5.product (http://www.ubiquitishop.com.au/226_0_loco_m5.product)
This seems to be a 5GHz link. 2.4GHz is better because it has less problems with obstructions.
Either way I'd try it with a pair of old Wifi routers and cheap antennas using a laptop from the balcony first. If it works then you could invest in some proper gear.
The main issue with using a 2.4 GHz antenna is that everyone and their mum uses 2.4 Ghz for everything. Phones, Bluetooth, 802.11. Every house an access point will introduce interference and with a few stable channels on the entire band, something like 900 Mhz, which could transmit even BETTER would be nice. Mute point now, but thought it should be addressed unless I missed something.
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This product will solve your problem
https://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/ (https://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/)
Jesus christ I thought 25km was impressive. I bet you could cook stuff on that thing.
Also imagine lining it up lol
A lot of hot air and marketing speak, no real datasheets. Complete lack of data for RF engineering, like calculating link budgets. And the license-free spectrum is the absolute killer. Which sane company would run a PtP in a license-free spectrum? :palm:
The 5GHz ISM band got relative low power limits based on the channel groups and might require DFS and TPC. For Europe the maximum is 1W EIRP, IIRC. With a registration you could do 4W EIRP for a PtP in Germany.
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This product will solve your problem
https://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/ (https://www.ubnt.com/airfiber/airfiber5/)
Unlikely, given the lack of information on that page - full of assertions with no information that would allow someone to have confidence in the assertions.
Of particular note are:
- concentration on a metric (b/s/Hz) that is of interest when designing a system, but is of no relevance when installing a system (and it ought to be b/s/Hz/m2 anyway!)
- no transmit power specification, therefore no way of assessing the link budget
- concentration on a metric that (range 100km+) that might be possible in free space, but which certainly won't be possible with diffractions/reflections/rain/haze/trees/hills/buildings, nor with anything else transmitting on the same band
- ignoring the effects of cochannel interference
Summary: unsupported marketing blurb.
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we all know ubnt does not provide relevant information but, most of you havent even used directional or point to point links before. point to point links using dishes with 1 watt can accomplish a lot more than omni because omni divides that 1 watt into a sphere around it whereas the dish concentrates the 1 watt of energy so it goes much much further.
People complain about the emf of wireless but the most a consumer wifi would do is 500mW omni typically lower which is divided into the volume around it and significantly lowers. We all know microwaves use 2.4 Ghz but a microwave needs at least 700W to cook so when compared to the measly radiation by wireless routers wifi energy is very very low and range limited by the way it is distributed.
With point to point links and both using dishes the dish is made in spec for the frequency and the directed wifi on the other end is also concentrated by the dish allowing for the few measly watts used over kilometers to be picked up even with the energy loss. Whereas with your typical everyday wifi that uses omni both the AP and client use omni antennas which broadcast the wifi in all directions so the energy is much reduced when it leaves the antenna for the exact waves that would reach the other antenna.
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Don't forget
'The new office is about 600m away '
Will be quite easy
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we all know ubnt does not provide relevant information but, most of you havent even used directional or point to point links before. point to point links using dishes with 1 watt can accomplish a lot more than omni because omni divides that 1 watt into a sphere around it whereas the dish concentrates the 1 watt of energy so it goes much much further.
Maybe maybe not.
Firstly, it ought to conform to EIRP limits, which might obviate that point.
Secondly, to avoid buggering other people on the line-of-sight, it ought to reduce the tx power so that it is just sufficient, which will increase its susceptibility to interferers. By way of example, since you are in the UK you will be aware of cases where a 1MW (not mW) omni transmitter's reception is disrupted by phones or base stations that aren't even on the same frequency.
With point to point links and both using dishes the dish is made in spec for the frequency and the directed wifi on the other end is also concentrated by the dish allowing for the few measly watts used over kilometers to be picked up even with the energy loss. Whereas with your typical everyday wifi that uses omni both the AP and client use omni antennas which broadcast the wifi in all directions so the energy is much reduced when it leaves the antenna for the exact waves that would reach the other antenna.
All of which can - and should - be taken into account in the link budget. Since no budget information is given, we cannot make that assessment. I don't believe unsupported manufacturers claims until I've "kicked the tyres".
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Can I ask what caused your multi-location divergence?
Home-Lab-Office... ?
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Can I ask what caused your multi-location divergence?
Home-Lab-Office... ?
I don't do anything at home, except forum stuff like right now.
Been looking for a while to move my packing and shipping out of the lab. That new space happens to have a nice balcony and view and is close to my gym so I like the idea of moving my editing/admin stuff there.
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Don't forget
'The new office is about 600m away '
Will be quite easy
There is no line of sight.
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All of which can - and should - be taken into account in the link budget. Since no budget information is given, we cannot make that assessment. I don't believe unsupported manufacturers claims until I've "kicked the tyres".
Dave's requirements are 600meters, so an Ap for 20KM of range would work well even with some obstructions but thats not the point. We actually determine his budget as we pay him through ads, and other means.
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All of which can - and should - be taken into account in the link budget. Since no budget information is given, we cannot make that assessment. I don't believe unsupported manufacturers claims until I've "kicked the tyres".
Dave's requirements are 600meters, so an Ap for 20KM of range would work well even with some obstructions but thats not the point.
Not necessarily; in dense multipath environment, the relationship between range and signal strength is tenuous at best. In addition, if the signal strength varies too much or too rapidly, it can cause problems for the receiver's AGC circuits.
In any case, the deleterious effects due to multipath propagation are independent of signal strength. That's one reason why DTV receivers display both "signal strength" and "signal quality".
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Dave's requirements are 600meters, so an Ap for 20KM of range would work well even with some obstructions but thats not the point. We actually determine his budget as we pay him through ads, and other means.
We didn't mean that budget :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_budget - some RF engineers prefer link margin.
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The thing you really need is a 3rd Point.
Is there nobody on a hill nearby that is a Friend or Supporter, that has an unobstructed view to the 2 sites (and maybe even to your house). If there is, then ask them if you can stick a repeater up by them. I am not talking about one of these cheap wifi extender thingies, as you know when you use one of those, your throughput is less than half. Put something like a Mikrotik router or other access point that has 2 wifi cards in it. Use a decent gain antenna on each card (I.E. Yagi antenna). Point one at each site., Then you have a CPE router, or wifi adaptor of sorts at each site.
Bonus if you can also see your house from that point, then in place of one of the Yagi's, put a 30 degree sector antenna, so that it will cover your house as well.
Then you can cancel the Internet At your house, and save money (to pay back for this wireless equipment).
When I worked for a Wireless ISP (Years Ago, when wireless (WIFI) was first coming around South Africa) I once (for a few seconds at least), had a 5.8ghz wifi link travelling 14km between a 10dBi omni, and a 23dBi parabolic grid antenna (using normal home use routers. But the wind was blowing the grid antenna a bit, so it kept loosing alignment.
P
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we all know ubnt does not provide relevant information but, most of you havent even used directional or point to point links before. point to point links using dishes with 1 watt can accomplish a lot more than omni because omni divides that 1 watt into a sphere around it whereas the dish concentrates the 1 watt of energy so it goes much much further.[/]
You do realize that transmit power regulatory limits are almost always ERP or EIRP (e.g. 20dBm EIRP for UK wifi)? That means if you are allowed 1W EIRP you can use a 1W transmitter with a 0dBi omni antenna but if you use a 24dbi antenna on the transmitter, the transmitter power must be turned down by 24dB to 4mW maximum (ignoring cable and connector losses). It makes no difference to range what antenna you use on the transmitter - if you operate legally (and your transmitter is powerful enough to allow the legal maximum EIRP from the antenna). A high gain antenna at the receiver will increase range however.
With point to point links and both using dishes the dish is made in spec for the frequency and the directed wifi on the other end is also concentrated by the dish allowing for the few measly watts used over kilometers to be picked up even with the energy loss. Whereas with your typical everyday wifi that uses omni both the AP and client use omni antennas which broadcast the wifi in all directions so the energy is much reduced when it leaves the antenna for the exact waves that would reach the other antenna.
As already stated, having a 'concentrating dish' at the transmitter doesn't get you any extra range but it is a good idea as it significantly reduces the interference to other users.
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we all know ubnt does not provide relevant information but, most of you havent even used directional or point to point links before. point to point links using dishes with 1 watt can accomplish a lot more than omni because omni divides that 1 watt into a sphere around it whereas the dish concentrates the 1 watt of energy so it goes much much further.[/]
You do realize that transmit power regulatory limits are almost always ERP or EIRP (e.g. 20dBm EIRP for UK wifi)? That means if you are allowed 1W EIRP you can use a 1W transmitter with a 0dBi omni antenna but if you use a 24dbi antenna on the transmitter, the transmitter power must be turned down by 24dB to 4mW maximum (ignoring cable and connector losses). It makes no difference to range what antenna you use on the transmitter - if you operate legally (and your transmitter is powerful enough to allow the legal maximum EIRP from the antenna). A high gain antenna at the receiver will increase range however.
It does seem that most of his recent posts in this thread match his moniker. I don't know whether that can be extended to earlier posts and/or those on other topics.
With point to point links and both using dishes the dish is made in spec for the frequency and the directed wifi on the other end is also concentrated by the dish allowing for the few measly watts used over kilometers to be picked up even with the energy loss. Whereas with your typical everyday wifi that uses omni both the AP and client use omni antennas which broadcast the wifi in all directions so the energy is much reduced when it leaves the antenna for the exact waves that would reach the other antenna.
As already stated, having a 'concentrating dish' at the transmitter doesn't get you any extra range but it is a good idea as it significantly reduces the interference to other users.
I think you mean "... from other users".
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in terms of whats allowed for wifi, point to point links are allowed much more dBi than omni
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in terms of whats allowed for wifi, point to point links are allowed much more dBi than omni
......
Do you actually know what dBi is?
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in terms of whats allowed for wifi, point to point links are allowed much more dBi than omni
No! Besides some special local regulations the maximum output is limited to 100mW EIRP (20dBm) in the 2.4GHz band and 200mW or 1W EIRP (which requires DFS and TPC) in the 5GHz band. It doesn't matter what kind of antenna you use, you have to lower the output power of the transmitter based on the antenna gain. If you got a 2.4GHz dish antenna with 24dB gain, you have to set the transmitter to -4dBm to not exceed the maximum of 20dBm. We're talking about ISM bands. For bands requiring a license things are different. If you're lucky, your local communications office/regulation allows more power in the ISM bands in specific cases, which usually involves a lot of paper work. BTW, it's dBm, as the value is based on 1mW. dBi is the gain/loss in relation to the theoretical isotropic radiator. Very basic stuff 8)
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in terms of whats allowed for wifi, point to point links are allowed much more dBi than omni
Oh dear. O dear, oh dear.
Can you tell us what you understand by the terms "dBi" and "EIRP". That might help us correct your misunderstandings.