Author Topic: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?  (Read 6619 times)

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Offline JwallingTopic starter

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #75 on: July 30, 2019, 07:18:20 pm »
where he sits happily sipping Martinis?

Actually, I would prefer a nice imperial stout.  ;)
Jay

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Offline soldar

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #76 on: August 02, 2019, 10:35:47 am »
Another of my Dell laptops has a two wire cord but still that strange fold-back connector.

That was a strange invention which was supposed to facilitate wrapping the cords around for storage.

I wonder if they sold both grounded and ungrounded PSUs simultaneously or if they transitioned from one to the other at a certain moment in time.
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Offline soldar

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #77 on: August 02, 2019, 10:39:52 am »
A Sony Vaio has a two wire (ungrounded) PSU. The "wart" in the power cable is an NTC I inserted to control inrush current because I got tired of blowing fuses in the UK. In more advanced countries we do not need or have fuses so this is not a problem elsewhere.
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Offline Ysjoelfir

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2019, 11:26:09 am »
because I got tired of blowing fuses in the UK. In more advanced countries we do not need or have fuses so this is not a problem elsewhere.

Up until now I thought that the UKs electrical distribution system is one of the greatest on the whole planet.
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #79 on: August 02, 2019, 12:11:08 pm »
A Sony Vaio has a two wire (ungrounded) PSU. The "wart" in the power cable is an NTC I inserted to control inrush current because I got tired of blowing fuses in the UK. In more advanced countries we do not need or have fuses so this is not a problem elsewhere.

It's not a problem here. I've never blown a fuse with a non-faulty item, and I've lived here my whole life, not just passed through.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #80 on: August 02, 2019, 12:23:41 pm »

I like the UK system with fuses in the plugs.   Allows each device to have an appropriate sized fuse, instead of "one size fits all" in the distribution panel.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #81 on: August 02, 2019, 01:56:45 pm »
It's a joke! People! Settle down! It's a joke!

BTW, I just had to deal with another fuse-blowing device. My bicycle tires need pumping air very often. I have a little 12 V electric compressor which plugs into the car but very often when I ask a friend to plug it into his car, or I try rental cars, it will blow the fuse.

I have measured the amps when it is working and it depends with the pressure but let's say around 3.5 amps and always under 5 A. But the inrush current will blow fuses and it is a pain having to find a fuse to replace the one I just blew so I have taken to connecting directly to the battery. Sometimes I use a regulated power supply and it works but I'd rather not do that too often lest some transient damage the power supply.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 05:09:25 pm by soldar »
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2019, 01:12:17 am »
I used to have a similar compressor that blew cigarette lighter fuses. As it aged, its motor drew more and more inrush current that blew the 20A fuse. I ended up replacing it with a mixed power compressor from B&D (110V/12V), bit that one gave up its 110V motor after a year of use.

I ended up with a Porter Cable compact compressor. Never looked back:

https://www.portercable.com/products/power-tools/air-compressors/air-compressor-combo-kits/15gallon-oilfree-fully-shrouded-compressor/cmb15

Regarding Laptop Power Supplies: I have both two and three pronged power supplies from Dell and the former tingles (didn't measure the current). Also, not long ago there was a discussion here about Apple power supplies that come furnished with two cables: a two and a three pronged. In this case, I can feel the leakage is much more pronounced, most probably due to the fact the entire housing of the laptop is aluminium.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 01:17:08 am by rsjsouza »
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Offline SteveyG

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #83 on: August 03, 2019, 08:30:14 am »
If "electrical earth" has dangerous potential with respect to earth then there is something very seriously wrong with the installation.

No, it's very common. Everything has an impedance, even terra firma. This is why we typically set up equipotential bonding for extraneous conductive parts so that metallic services that have entered from outside the property are maintained at the same potential as electrical earth. You then have a equipotential zone within the house. Outside is where it becomes a problem and why things like hot tubs and EV chargers would be required to use their own earth derived from an earth rod or mat.

Regarding your earlier question, a broken CNE happens more regularly than you would think meaning everything that's earthed in the house can rise in potential and cause a shock risk. Typically the shock risk is small because of the equipotential zone you've set up but again, outside the property is a real risk.

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Offline SteveyG

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #84 on: August 03, 2019, 08:31:28 am »
A Sony Vaio has a two wire (ungrounded) PSU. The "wart" in the power cable is an NTC I inserted to control inrush current because I got tired of blowing fuses in the UK. In more advanced countries we do not need or have fuses so this is not a problem elsewhere.

I've never blown a fuse in the UK from a SMPSU under normal operation. You're either using fake fuses or something was wrong with your power supply. Look at the fuse curves for a BS1361 fuse!
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Offline soldar

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #85 on: August 03, 2019, 10:44:51 am »
I've never blown a fuse in the UK from a SMPSU under normal operation. You're either using fake fuses or something was wrong with your power supply. Look at the fuse curves for a BS1361 fuse!

The fuses were supplied by the hotel and did not blow when using the kettle which, needless to say, used a lot more power than the laptop. The PSU is SONY original and works just fine except for that inrush current which I take it comes from having a rectifier bridge followed by a large capacitor. I installed the NTC and that solved the problem. The problem is therefore solved and needs no further resolving.

Getting back to the issue of safety, I have been doing some reading and some learning and it is a fascinating topic although quite complicated. There are categories by types of users, voltages, accessibility, etc. But, to simplify a lot, let us restrict ourselves to devices at mains voltage to be used by ordinary persons.

For example an old hand-held electric drill with metal exterior housing. If the enameled wire in the rotor were to fail it could make contact with the core which would make the external housing live through the shaft and bearings. The insulation provided by the enamel is weak, "basic insulation". So this device would not be authorized for sale today.

To make it safer we cannot increase the enamel thickness and insulation to needed levels but the code authorizes us to ground the external housing so that if there is a fault, an "abnormal condition", the user is protected and the current would be diverted to ground by a path other than the user's mortal body. Class I.

Now, the manufacturer can add a second layer of insulation, "supplementary insulation" between the core of the rotor and the shaft so they are electrically insulated from each other. If the basic and supplementary insulations added up meet the specs as to dielectric rigidity, clearance, temperature, accessibility by the user, etc. then that classifies as class II and grounding is not required but in no way is it forbidden. Grounding the external case can be kept or added and, in fact, always adds safety.

Note that "class" refers to each conductive (metallic) part individually. When referring to a device it would be the lowest class of any part that can be touched by the user. And "can be touched" also requires defining apertures and dimensions of holes where a user could put his pinky (I mean his little finger).

Also note that insulation class is a general analysis of electrical conditions of metallic parts and how they could fail electrically. A metal workbench in a shop, not connected to anything electrical, is already class II because it surpasses all the dielectric and other requirements. That spoon you use for soup? Class II.

But grounding that metal bench still adds safety. Maybe one day some wire touches it and the user would be protected.

By the way, the regulations assume the common user is always grounded and will get a shock if in contact with any live part. If the user needs to be insulated he is no longer an "ordinary user".

If you look at the PCB of a SMPS you can see cut-outs in the PCB between the mains side and the output side. This is because the safe dielectric distance (clearance) is much lower in open air than over the surface of the PCB (creepage) which can cause flash-over if dirt accumulates. Varnishing the PCB can also reduce creepage distance.

I am getting a pretty good understanding of all this protection business and yet a question comes up in my mind. A SMPS PCB has cutouts so it can maintain certain open air distance between primary side and output side. And yet the Y capacitor is mounted (IIRC) in two holes and pads very close to each other and which would not meet dielectric requirements. Not to mention the capacitor itself. If this arrangement does not meet the requirements for "reinforced" insulation, it could well be the PSU does not meet Class II specs and should, in fact, have the output side grounded.

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Offline SteveyG

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #86 on: August 03, 2019, 12:04:25 pm »
For example an old hand-held electric drill with metal exterior housing. If the enameled wire in the rotor were to fail it could make contact with the core which would make the external housing live through the shaft and bearings. The insulation provided by the enamel is weak, "basic insulation". So this device would not be authorized for sale today.

Interestingly, it's highly unusual for a mains powered hand tool sold in the UK to be anything other than double insulated, even if it has significant amounts of metal on it. The Bosch drill in the attachment is double insulated for example.

Other reasons why it may be preferred to leave pieces of metal floating and rely on reinforced insulation are that it can represent a greater risk of electric shock under additional circumstances, i.e. it provides a lower impedance to earth for you. If you happen to be in an environment where conceivably you could encounter an electrical risk, you're more likely to suffer a severe electric shock holding onto an earthed piece of handheld equipment.

I am getting a pretty good understanding of all this protection business and yet a question comes up in my mind. A SMPS PCB has cutouts so it can maintain certain open air distance between primary side and output side. And yet the Y capacitor is mounted (IIRC) in two holes and pads very close to each other and which would not meet dielectric requirements. Not to mention the capacitor itself. If this arrangement does not meet the requirements for "reinforced" insulation, it could well be the PSU does not meet Class II specs and should, in fact, have the output side grounded.

X and Y capacitors have to meet very strict requirements and are designed to fail in very specific ways. We even use them in medical equipment where you may be required to achieve 2 Means of Patient Protection...

The creepage and clearance distances will still be greater than the minimum required for the device operating voltage.
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #87 on: August 03, 2019, 12:29:31 pm »
The fuses were supplied by the hotel and did not blow when using the kettle which, needless to say, used a lot more power than the laptop. The PSU is SONY original and works just fine except for that inrush current which I take it comes from having a rectifier bridge followed by a large capacitor. I installed the NTC and that solved the problem. The problem is therefore solved and needs no further resolving.

Meanwhile, the problem that you have it in your head that fuses must blow all the time in the UK because of inrush is unsolved. Yes, inrush is very normal, and yes, you do tend to get a nice big pop when plugging in laptop supplies and the like, but if fuses blew left right and centre with them, you'd think people would notice.
 

Online themadhippy

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #88 on: August 03, 2019, 01:26:59 pm »
fuses blowing on eu stuff being used in the uk maybe down to the difference in supply voltage,yea were all meant to be harmonized across europe at 230V,but here my supply sits at around 248v and in parts of europe iv had supplys that were below 220v.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #89 on: August 03, 2019, 01:52:19 pm »
Meanwhile, the problem that you have it in your head that fuses must blow all the time in the UK because of inrush is unsolved. Yes, inrush is very normal, and yes, you do tend to get a nice big pop when plugging in laptop supplies and the like, but if fuses blew left right and centre with them, you'd think people would notice.

Man, really? The problem I have in my head that fuses must blow all the time? Where did you read that? Or is it all in your head?

By the way you are reacting you'd think I insulted the Queen or something.

Look it's very simple. Sony laptop PSU, with normal consumption, blew a few fuses and I resolved it with inrush limiting. Case closed. No reflection on anybody. No judgment regarding anything. Just an anecdote. Take it for what it's worth. No guarantees express or implied. Your mileage may vary. Not valid in Hawaii and Puerto Rico. Cannot be combined with any other promotion. Can be cancelled in the event of foul weather or hard Brexit, whichever comes first.

Jeeez.
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #90 on: August 03, 2019, 02:20:04 pm »
Meanwhile, the problem that you have it in your head that fuses must blow all the time in the UK because of inrush is unsolved. Yes, inrush is very normal, and yes, you do tend to get a nice big pop when plugging in laptop supplies and the like, but if fuses blew left right and centre with them, you'd think people would notice.

Man, really? The problem I have in my head that fuses must blow all the time? Where did you read that? Or is it all in your head?

By the way you are reacting you'd think I insulted the Queen or something.

Look it's very simple. Sony laptop PSU, with normal consumption, blew a few fuses and I resolved it with inrush limiting. Case closed. No reflection on anybody. No judgment regarding anything. Just an anecdote. Take it for what it's worth. No guarantees express or implied. Your mileage may vary. Not valid in Hawaii and Puerto Rico. Cannot be combined with any other promotion. Can be cancelled in the event of foul weather or hard Brexit, whichever comes first.

Jeeez.

Quote
Another problem I wish they'd fix is these PSUs have no inrush limit and I have blown more than one fuse in the UK.

Gives the impression you think there's a big problem with such devices. Which there just plain isn't and yours is faulty. It doesn't matter if it's '15 years old' or brand new: They do not blow fuses normally.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #91 on: August 03, 2019, 03:25:29 pm »
Gives the impression you think there's a big problem with such devices. Which there just plain isn't and yours is faulty. It doesn't matter if it's '15 years old' or brand new: They do not blow fuses normally.

I regret any misunderstanding my posts may have caused and I do hereby humbly apologize if I hurt the feelings of anybody in Britain or elsewhere. No negative representation was intended regarding Sony or its fine products, the British, their excellent electrical system, their outstanding political system or their sense of humor. I hereby undertake to use my best endeavors in the future so as to avoid any further misunderstanding. I hope this is a satisfactory apology and closes the matter.

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Offline stevelup

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Re: Burning feeling when touching Dell e6430s laptop. WTF?
« Reply #92 on: August 03, 2019, 08:29:02 pm »
I've stayed in a gazillion hotels in the UK, and have never once ever experienced a blown fuse! Your power supply must be faulty...

And drifting slightly back on topic, every Dell laptop charger I've seen here in the UK has a three pin C5/C6 connector (AKA Mickey Mouse / Cloverleaf).

I'm guessing this regional variation is simply because in many other countries, ungrounded outlets are either the norm, or if not the norm, they are commonly available, whereas in the UK they simply do not exist.
 


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