Buying Keysight Used: my MSOX3104T fully loaded experiences

[Howardlong]

As many are no doubt aware from the banner ad running this month on eevblog Keysight Used have a deal on the MSOX3104T.

Mine arrive a couple of days ago, here are my experiences. Some might want to watch at 1.5x speed, I know I’m a slow talker!

[HighVoltage]

Nice !

A few years ago, I bought my MSOX3104A through the same Keysight channel.
What a great deal.

[Mr. Scram]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Obviously the cat had to present itself not too subtly. As a tip I'd say you want to mind the occasional lip smacking during filming but otherwise the presentation was pretty good.

[Howardlong]

As a tip I'd say you want to mind the occasional lip smacking during filming

I’ll add that to my already long list of complaints and disclaimers! ;-)

[nfmax]

I will watch this when I have the time, containing my soul in patience while waiting for mine to arrive...

[Mr. Scram]

I’ll add that to my already long list of complaints and disclaimers! ;-)

Loved the disclaimer for using paper instead of text overlay. 

[Howardlong]

I will watch this when I have the time, containing my soul in patience while waiting for mine to arrive...

FWIW mine took eleven days elapsed, I ordered on 1 August and it was delivered on 12 August. I received a message a couple of working days before it arrived saying it'd been dispatched, but no tracking number that I found. They used DHL to the UK.

In the end, I found one very minor cosmetic blemish, the probe compensation ground lug seems to have been used with some industrial strength croc/alligator clips: it's a bit rough to the touch as if someone's dog has been chewing it!

[nfmax]

Going by your experiences, hopefully mine will be arriving in time for the bank holiday weekend!

A quick question - were the software licenses in the supplied bundle 'old style' or 'new style'? It seems that the new style licenses attract an annual maintenance fee: it isn't clear if keeping 'old style' licenses mean you don't/can't upgrade the instrument firmware, or if paying the fee guarantees regular updates, or how much the fees are going to be.

(Apparently these license changes came in in June)

[Howardlong]

Going by your experiences, hopefully mine will be arriving in time for the bank holiday weekend!

A quick question - were the software licenses in the supplied bundle 'old style' or 'new style'? It seems that the new style licenses attract an annual maintenance fee: it isn't clear if keeping 'old style' licenses mean you don't/can't upgrade the instrument firmware, or if paying the fee guarantees regular updates, or how much the fees are going to be.

(Apparently these license changes came in in June)

I don’t know how I’d check that. All of the options were pre-installed.

[2N3055]

Going by your experiences, hopefully mine will be arriving in time for the bank holiday weekend!

A quick question - were the software licenses in the supplied bundle 'old style' or 'new style'? It seems that the new style licenses attract an annual maintenance fee: it isn't clear if keeping 'old style' licenses mean you don't/can't upgrade the instrument firmware, or if paying the fee guarantees regular updates, or how much the fees are going to be.

(Apparently these license changes came in in June)

It is easy to check. Newly added licenses have different code.

Connect to the scope with web browser. On instrument utilities pages you will have listed options.
New format is  D3000AUTA, old one was AUTO, etc. Old one didn't have code for bundle. You would simply have all options enabled individually. If you have new bundle you will have D3000BDLA installed.

There is a configurator document that explains new licensing. Basically, new way is that you don't just buy options.
You choose which option (individual or bundle), then you chose if it is going to be permanent, or time limited. Then you chose if it is going to be floating license, or fixed to single instrument. Time limited licenses get all the updates during its lifetime. If you choose permanent, you get 12 months of upgrades, or you can buy longer period, or extend maintenance later.

What is not clear, is how is this going to work.

At this time, I have "old type" bundle with all individual option enabled. When they extended CAN FD i got all the upgrades automatically with firmware updates. If they added new option (like new protocol) despite that I bought the bundle, I wouldn't get that. I owned only option codes that existed at the time I bought bundle. But I got unlimited upgrades, fixes and extensions for the options I did own.

I'm not sure if that will stay the same for me.
Also I don't know if this means that if I buy D3000AUTA  option now, and after 12 months, I will not get upgrades and bug fixes if I don't pay maintenance extension?
If that is so, will that going to apply to old AUTO license too?

If that is so, that means that officially company with best support in the world stopped giving support for their products.

Whole idea why it made sense to pay more for Keysight scope was that they kept adding features and debugging for years after purchase.
And when you spoke to them they would tell you that they know their equipment is more expensive to purchase, but they had to calculate in cost of support.

If you will have to pay for basic support, then they have to drop initial purchase price of instruments.
I don't want to pay for support twice.
It either has to be at the time of instrument purchase and free later, or cheaper instrument and then you pay support in extent you need it..

I would really like if Daniel could chime in and explain it to us...
Regards,

[jmsc_02]

Quick quedtion: did you need to pay customs/vat/taxes?

I have the money but also i want to keep my wife...

[nfmax]

Quick quedtion: did you need to pay customs/vat/taxes?

I have the money but also i want to keep my wife...

The only additional charge above the sticker price was UK VAT @ 20%. This was added by way of an eBay 'customer invoice', on which it appears as a shipping charge. There was no actual charge for shipping, and (supposedly) all import duties are paid by Keysight, not the purchaser. This is how it worked the last time I bought something from the Keysighy eBay store.

I'm in the UK - it may be different elsewhere in the EU.

[nfmax]

I don't mind paying a maintenace charge, as long as it isn't too much, regular updates are guaranteed to appear during the maintenance period, and it doesn't just stop working if I stop paying maintenance (for the perpetual license, naturally, not the time-limited option). I would expect a formal troiuble-ticket support system to be in place, including feature requests. For example, I would like a group delay plot to be available on the FRA in addition to the Bode plot.

But I agree there needs to be clarification about the status with instrument firmware updates - I don't want to find my old-style options disappearing if I upgrade the firmware!

[SilverSolder]

Everybody wants us to subscribe to their products, rather than buy them.  Heading for the ultimate capitalist system, where there are only two types of people: those that collect subscriptions, and those who pay them!

[Mr. Scram]

I don't mind paying a maintenace charge, as long as it isn't too much, regular updates are guaranteed to appear during the maintenance period, and it doesn't just stop working if I stop paying maintenance (for the perpetual license, naturally, not the time-limited option). I would expect a formal troiuble-ticket support system to be in place, including feature requests. For example, I would like a group delay plot to be available on the FRA in addition to the Bode plot.

But I agree there needs to be clarification about the status with instrument firmware updates - I don't want to find my old-style options disappearing if I upgrade the firmware!

Making your electronics lab dependent on some external party is completely unacceptable from a business perspective. Who wants to give someone the power to eliminate your company's abilities to further build, test, repair, develop your products or use your expensive equipment? It's a huge liability added to an already uncertain market. Keysight hasn't exactly been the most stable company with all the spin-offs and name changes either.

[Howardlong]

The way to make it work from a customer’s long-term maintenance perspective, and make it pay for the vendor, is to offer updates with new functionality, but not cripple older versions.

[Mr. Scram]

The way to make it work from a customer’s long-term maintenance perspective, and make it pay for the vendor, is to offer updates with new functionality, but not cripple older versions.

The bottom line is that it's going to be more costly to operate equipment. Otherwise companies wouldn't be interested in doing it. Look at Microsoft with Office 365. You now need a 100 euro subscription a year for what once was a one time purchase with a decade's worth of updates included. Those aren't even products which can be developed further as they've had all the requisite features for a while now.

[2N3055]

I don't mind paying a maintenace charge, as long as it isn't too much, regular updates are guaranteed to appear during the maintenance period, and it doesn't just stop working if I stop paying maintenance (for the perpetual license, naturally, not the time-limited option). I would expect a formal troiuble-ticket support system to be in place, including feature requests. For example, I would like a group delay plot to be available on the FRA in addition to the Bode plot.

But I agree there needs to be clarification about the status with instrument firmware updates - I don't want to find my old-style options disappearing if I upgrade the firmware!

First, i don't want anything to change for me with existing scope and options. I paid a lot of money because of level of service that was in place when I made a decision. I already paid for lifetime support by paying premium prices for premium product with premium support. That was the deal when I bought it and the reason why I decided it was worth the money. The level of service was, that any option that I bought, would be maintained and even enhanced, during lifetime of product.
It was the gift that kept on giving. That is what made it a good value. If they stop doing that, they are just the same as others, and they will not command premium purchase price. If they change that I would feel cheated.

I don't mind paying for support, I already did. Upfront.
If they want to start charging for ongoing support and access to updates and firmware and such, that is fine with me.
Except, then DSO-X3014T should be sold for 2000 €, not 3750€. That is what I'm saying.
Whenever I spoke with them, they always spoke about how they know they cost more, but they have to charge cost of the support in the price of instrument.

If they keep high product prices and charge for support they will in my mind charge for support twice: first trough the price of product and then again by selling support access.

To be clear, I'm concerned with regular updates, bug fixes, security fixes, updates on protocols (bugs and protocol standard changes and such).
I don't expect feature requests and new options for free. If I want that, than it would be fair to pay for some support contract.

But I would be very disappointed if anything changed for me at all, or even worse, if I had to pay to get firmware updates...
Personally, I doubt they will make such a drastic move... If they do, well, Rigol or Siglent.

[Howardlong]

Going by your experiences, hopefully mine will be arriving in time for the bank holiday weekend!

A quick question - were the software licenses in the supplied bundle 'old style' or 'new style'? It seems that the new style licenses attract an annual maintenance fee: it isn't clear if keeping 'old style' licenses mean you don't/can't upgrade the instrument firmware, or if paying the fee guarantees regular updates, or how much the fees are going to be.

(Apparently these license changes came in in June)

It is easy to check. Newly added licenses have different code.

Connect to the scope with web browser. On instrument utilities pages you will have listed options.
New format is  D3000AUTA, old one was AUTO, etc. Old one didn't have code for bundle. You would simply have all options enabled individually. If you have new bundle you will have D3000BDLA installed.

Here's a screen grab of mine.

Although it looks like the scope is running off unexpired demos, I think the crucial bit is the "Installed" column. You'll notice, for example, that the MSO row is expired, but is installed. And sure enough the digital channels work.

[Howardlong]

The way to make it work from a customer’s long-term maintenance perspective, and make it pay for the vendor, is to offer updates with new functionality, but not cripple older versions.

The bottom line is that it's going to be more costly to operate equipment. Otherwise companies wouldn't be interested in doing it. Look at Microsoft with Office 365. You now need a 100 euro subscription a year for what once was a one time purchase with a decade's worth of updates included. Those aren't even products which can be developed further as they've had all the requisite features for a while now.

I'm not sure about that, it's a bit of swings and roundabouts. The Office 365 offer allows you to run it on five machines which just about works for me. The biggest bummer of it is that it doesn't include Visio, that's still on a perpetual licence, and, for example, you cannot coexist Visio 2016 with the current version of Office 365, you have to buy the 2019 Visio for an enormous sum. What utter and complete w@nkers Microsoft are!

For me it's about the instrument suddenly not working the same way as it did the day before that is going to be the most disruptive aspect, if that's the way they impose it.

[2N3055]

Here's a screen grab of mine.

Although it looks like the scope is running off unexpired demos, I think the crucial bit is the "Installed" column. You'll notice, for example, that the MSO row is expired, but is installed. And sure enough the digital channels work.

First column is "Installed", other two columns are new in last firmware, and they show support expiration date, and support status. On mine they are all expired, because I don't have new type support having old type bundle.

Regards,

[Mr. Scram]

Remember that time when Keysight wanted to compete in the lower end of the market and taught a Chinese company all it needed to know to build an oscilloscope for them, after which the company all but eliminated Keysight's chances in the lower half of the market by using that knowledge for their own oscilloscopes? You'd think they'd have learned a thing or two about giving up their position in the market, but with the new licensing model they seem intent on doing the same for the other half of the market. With younger engineers being used to Chinese alternatives as they probably got started on them and having the options to outright buy the buy equipment instead of leasing it and having maintenance costs it seems Keysight is giving their dominant position away for shorter term gains. I guess they've had a good run.

[SilverSolder]

A business model where Keysight charges a lower up front price and instead provides a service contract paid monthly for professional shops that cannot afford any BS or downtime seems workable.

This would get a lot more Keysight scopes into the hands of younger engineers and inevitably result in good sales later.   It would also make it a lot harder for new entrants to compete.

Sadly, thinking further ahead than your nose is something that seems to have gone completely out of fashion these days....

[Mr. Scram]

A business model where Keysight charges a lower up front price and instead provides a service contract paid monthly for professional shops that cannot afford any BS or downtime seems workable.

This would get a lot more Keysight scopes into the hands of younger engineers and inevitably result in good sales later.   It would also make it a lot harder for new entrants to compete.

Sadly, thinking further ahead than your nose is something that seems to have gone completely out of fashion these days....

We already established that Keysight's bottom line has to benefit from the new way of doing things so it's questionable whether things will get more affordable. It also adds liability and the chance of downtime by placing more outside of the direct control of your organisation.

[SilverSolder]

To meaningfully boost Keysight's bottom line, they need to meaningfully increase the number of engineers that choose Keysight products,  as well as finding customers willing to pay for continued maintenance.

If they just introduce a subscription model that adds to the already high purchase price with little benefit, they would just open the door for their competitors.