Buying Keysight Used: my MSOX3104T fully loaded experiences

[Bud]

I do not think big businesses care about subscription. They have work to be done and they want the equipment supported. It is small guys who will he hurt.

[SilverSolder]

I do not think big businesses care about subscription. They have work to be done and they want the equipment supported. It is small guys who will he hurt.

I agree.  The problem (for Keysight) is that if the younger generation gets weaned on Rigol, Siglent, etc. low end products - then those companies could eventually end up in a better position to sell subscriptions at the "bread and butter" level than Keysight. 

[nfmax]

Before we all get carried away, does anybody know how much they are charging for maintenance, and what the costs of the different types of license (node-locked, floating, time-limited) actually are? A time-limited license might be useful. My main worry is what happens to existing, old-style licenses, which were sold as perpetual, node-locked licenses with no ongoing support charge. Will I have to choose between either not upgrading the instrument firmware after some specific version, losing my existing licenses, or being forced to pay maintenance for them? If so, how much?

[nfmax]

My new toy arrived today, via DHL! I ordered it on 11th August, so it took only 9 days altogether. I haven't had a chance to do more than switch it on and twiddle a few knobs yet. It has firmware 7.20, which only supported the old-style licenses so that settles that issue for the moment. I haven't moved the VGALAN module across from the old scope yet so I can't tell you what is on the status page.

I'll try contacting Daniel Bogdanoff with my questions about licenses and firmware upgrades - I can't be the only one in need of clarification.

[Howardlong]

Mine came with 7.20 also, once I'd performed a quick sanity check, I updated to the latest 7.30 version very shortly afterwards.

Regarding licensing, definitely I agree that clarification on how they work now and what the plans are ongoing would help.

Keep in mind the time of year, Daniel may be on vacation.

[rrinker]

The way to make it work from a customer’s long-term maintenance perspective, and make it pay for the vendor, is to offer updates with new functionality, but not cripple older versions.

The bottom line is that it's going to be more costly to operate equipment. Otherwise companies wouldn't be interested in doing it. Look at Microsoft with Office 365. You now need a 100 euro subscription a year for what once was a one time purchase with a decade's worth of updates included. Those aren't even products which can be developed further as they've had all the requisite features for a while now.

I'm not sure about that, it's a bit of swings and roundabouts. The Office 365 offer allows you to run it on five machines which just about works for me. The biggest bummer of it is that it doesn't include Visio, that's still on a perpetual licence, and, for example, you cannot coexist Visio 2016 with the current version of Office 365, you have to buy the 2019 Visio for an enormous sum. What utter and complete w@nkers Microsoft are!

For me it's about the instrument suddenly not working the same way as it did the day before that is going to be the most disruptive aspect, if that's the way they impose it.

 Umm, Visio is available on O365, it's just extra, just like Visio is extra with a perpetual license of Office. Same 5 install limit as the rest of the suite, too. I use Visio daily in my job so it was added to my account, and just like Word, Excel, and the rest, I installed it on my work computer and my home computer.  It updated to the latest build right along with the standard Office apps, too.

[Howardlong]

Umm, Visio is available on O365, it's just extra, just like Visio is extra with a perpetual license of Office. Same 5 install limit as the rest of the suite, too. I use Visio daily in my job so it was added to my account, and just like Word, Excel, and the rest, I installed it on my work computer and my home computer.  It updated to the latest build right along with the standard Office apps, too.

I think it may be in the Business edition, not the Home as far as I can see.

[nfmax]

Yours came with BNC socket covers, and mine didn't! I feel cheated 

[rsjsouza]

I do not think big businesses care about subscription. They have work to be done and they want the equipment supported. It is small guys who will he hurt.

I agree.  The problem (for Keysight) is that if the younger generation gets weaned on Rigol, Siglent, etc. low end products - then those companies could eventually end up in a better position to sell subscriptions at the "bread and butter" level than Keysight.

I suspect this ship has sailed already. Anybody that is paying attention and wants to start with electronics will not consider anything else other than the cheaper brands - the price difference is way too radical to sway newcomers.

[Howardlong]

Yours came with BNC socket covers, and mine didn't! I feel cheated 

IF it makes you feel better, they were a right royal PITA to pull off.

[2N3055]

Yours came with BNC socket covers, and mine didn't! I feel cheated 

IF it makes you feel better, they were a right royal PITA to pull off.

Yess, I was really close to cutting them off... 
I replaced them with ones I got, that are deeper (longer ?) so you have something to grab onto.. But in the end, not using them much only on trig in, i have a cable with LED permanently plugged in trigger out and I just use front cover....

[Zucca]

Joined the club today.

Now I have some toys to sell to cover the costs, see here

[2N3055]

Joined the club today.

Now I have some toys to sell to cover the costs, see here

Haha you joined us on a dark side ... 

[Howardlong]

In case this was on anyone's watch list, it looks like they've now re-listed it under a different ID 193059738508, now showing 1 of 5 sold. The original listing 193024964977 was showing 3 of 6 sold last time I looked a day or two ago, that original listing now showing all 6 sold.

Sound like they have a secret stash!

[Zucca]

Keysight storage clean up?

I smell the new generation of black MSOX knocking on the door, which it would be perfect.
I personally like to buy expensive products short before EOP: they are cheaper and with bug fixes implemented.
It is always risky to buy something just after SOP, we all know that.

[Howardlong]

Keysight storage clean up?

I smell the new generation of black MSOX knocking on the door, which it would be perfect.
I personally like to buy expensive products short before EOP: they are cheaper and with bug fixes implemented.
It is always risky to buy something just after SOP, we all know that.

I've been wondering the same thing, the timing is probably about right.

I remember purchasing my MSO7104B from KS used a few years back, six months later it was EOL. It's still my go to scope.

Regarding purchasing at significant discounts shortly before EOL, it's not a bad investment compared to purchasing one at sticker price and the incurred immediate depreciation of driving out that brand new model from the car showroom.

For the sort of semi niche stuff I do as an SME, I can't justify or see the ROI on blowing $20k+ just to get a couple of extra serial decoders, although USB-PD was a nice surprise that I wasn't previous aware of on the 3000T (even though I already had a way of decoding USB-PD).

Interestingly the non touch 3000A series is still being sold widely, with sticker prices reasonably close to the 3000T pricing, although as far as I am aware firmware updates are for bug fixes only, so no new functionality.

[2N3055]

Problem is they have to redesign whole lineup from new 1000X up..
Competition has 10" screens, much higher screen res and 100x more memory on 3000 class scopes.
Making that upgrade to 3000T would make current 4000 and 6000 series look bad, so those would need to be refreshed too.
We'll see.
Truth is it's one helluva of a scope and does pretty much anything I need. I have one long memory and one high res Picoscope for other stuff that 3000T is not so good for. I pretty much have everything covered with that combo.
In reality, only thing I could improve would be to get one of those tablet scopes so I can carry it to field.

[Zucca]

Making that upgrade to 3000T would make current 4000 and 6000 series look bad, so those would need to be refreshed too.

The day before I dropped the MSOX3104T bomb, the KS ebay store quoted me a used MSOX4154A+Bundle App for over 12K€... emmm.. no thank you.

I have one long memory

which one?

[Howardlong]

In reality, only thing I could improve would be to get one of those tablet scopes so I can carry it to field.

I had great intentions for the Micsigs I have, but in reality they've never been out with me on site. If I'm in the field, either I take the semi-disposable Rigol MSO1104Z-S Swiss Army knife, but mostly I can get away with an Analog Discovery. Only once have I been out in the field and taken a "proper" scope with me recently, but that was an exception, we had a bit of time critical space hardware due for delivery at a launch site, and it was the weekend so the contractor didn't have access to his stores. Believe me, you don't want to be the reason for a delayed launch, or to lose your slot to a lump of concrete. That's where us one-man-bands can come in pretty handy!

The downside of taking TE to a customer site is that sometimes it ends up staying there for extended periods in my experience.

[HighVoltage]

The MSOX6104 with touch is really nice and I enjoy working with it. So, no need for me for a MSOX3104T.

But I need one MSOX3104T for a client project right now and the scope will be integrated to a test stand for the client. Last week I got a quote from an EU distributor for an outrageous amount of money!

What surprised me most, is the fact that I have to pay for the license and for one year usage of that license.
See below, it seems to be a new thing.

[2N3055]

Making that upgrade to 3000T would make current 4000 and 6000 series look bad, so those would need to be refreshed too.

The day before I dropped the MSOX3104T bomb, the KS ebay store quoted me a used MSOX4154A+Bundle App for over 12K€... emmm.. no thank you.

I have one long memory

which one?

Well,  I was also looking at 4000A (bigger screen, bad eyesight), but 3000T is mostly same as 4000A and, yeah price difference was woooooo... I connected 3000T to external 23" monitor...

I have Pico 3406D MSO (200MHz, 1GS/sec, 500MS, 4+16ch ) and 4264 (16 Bit , 5MHz, 10MS/sec, 16MS, 2ch )

[2N3055]

In reality, only thing I could improve would be to get one of those tablet scopes so I can carry it to field.

I had great intentions for the Micsigs I have, but in reality they've never been out with me on site. If I'm in the field, either I take the semi-disposable Rigol MSO1104Z-S Swiss Army knife, but mostly I can get away with an Analog Discovery. Only once have I been out in the field and taken a "proper" scope with me recently, but that was an exception, we had a bit of time critical space hardware due for delivery at a launch site, and it was the weekend so the contractor didn't have access to his stores. Believe me, you don't want to be the reason for a delayed launch, or to lose your slot to a lump of concrete. That's where us one-man-bands can come in pretty handy!

The downside of taking TE to a customer site is that sometimes it ends up staying there for extended periods in my experience.

I also carried DS1074Z to a client site few times (that is only thing I use it for nowadays, i should sell it), but I have projects where I have to troubleshoot things on equipment outdoors.. So no power plug, tablet or handheld format would be really useful..

While I don't do such a fancy stuff as aerospace, i do pretty much also mostly get called to fix what other's couldn't. Fine with me, I get to charge decent rates..
Regards,
Siniša

[2N3055]

The MSOX6104 with touch is really nice and I enjoy working with it. So, no need for me for a MSOX3104T.

But I need one MSOX3104T for a client project right now and the scope will be integrated to a test stand for the client. Last week I got a quote from an EU distributor for an outrageous amount of money!

What surprised me most, is the fact that I have to pay for the license and for one year usage of that license.
See below, it seems to be a new thing.

Actually, the way I understood is that you bought fixed license (permanent, non expiring) and 12 months of software support (upgrades).
What I think it means is that if KS adds some new protocol into bundle, in that year you will get all the new stuff. Me, with old fixed bundle won't get any new stuff. We can both use options indefinitely.

I don't know if I do get updates (debugs and improvements) for the stuff I have licenses for, or I'm cut of any further support unless I pay for support too....

[Howardlong]

I also carried DS1074Z to a client site few times (that is only thing I use it for nowadays, i should sell it), but I have projects where I have to troubleshoot things on equipment outdoors.. So no power plug, tablet or handheld format would be really useful..

While I don't do such a fancy stuff as aerospace, i do pretty much also mostly get called to fix what other's couldn't. Fine with me, I get to charge decent rates..

I don't ever really need a scope outside, but I do use portable SAs, VNAs and multimeters outside for antenna and feed mounted HPA/LNA/converter testing. Again, I provide my own kit, unless I can be sure the customer will have that kit available. The alternative is to waste half a day waiting for TE to be released from stores, and if you're not familiar with it, further precious time learning how to drive it.

[SilverSolder]

[...] Interestingly the non touch 3000A series is still being sold widely, with sticker prices reasonably close to the 3000T pricing [...]

Some of us old gits may prefer non-touch screens....  I never saw much benefit in the idea of smearing marmite-and-egg-toast-fingers all over a test instrument screen, for example.   Touch screens have their place in the world of portable equipment, but I'd rather have a mouse/keyboard connected to the scope than a touch screen...