Buying your own software and equipment for work?

[Pack34]

I'm almost afraid to ask. How common is this? I work in a real small shop (only EE), my employer and all of the other engineers are MEs. I've been having to buy all of my test equipment and software (Eagle, power supplies, gen, scope, etc).

Has this happened to anyone else?

[RobertHolcombe]

Doesn't seem right at all, if they've employed you to perform a job and that job requires certain tools then those tools should be provided for you. What happens when you leave and they need another EE? 

[nctnico]

I'm almost afraid to ask. How common is this? I work in a real small shop (only EE), my employer and all of the other engineers are MEs. I've been having to buy all of my test equipment and software (Eagle, power supplies, gen, scope, etc).

Has this happened to anyone else?

I have taken my own equipment to work every now and then for very specialistic measurements but an employer should pay for the basic stuff you list. Otherwise they should rent it from you. There are some businesses where people bring their own tools. AFAIK hair dressers is one of them.

[skipjackrc4]

Unless they're compensating you in some other way, that sounds like a pretty bad situation.  I will occasionally take my own stuff in for certain measurements, but it's rare and it's at my own discretion. 

[Pack34]

Unless they're compensating you in some other way, that sounds like a pretty bad situation.  I will occasionally take my own stuff in for certain measurements, but it's rare and it's at my own discretion.

I get a couple hundred for a holiday bonus, but that's about it.

One thing I'm concerned with is that I may be looking at a better power supply (something networked) as well as an electronic load since I'm moving more into power electronics. I'm also starting to look more into a basic pick-and-place. I've really sped up some prototyping and production with a basic stencil printer and oven.

[T3sl4co1l]

If you're a contractor, it might not make sense for them to provide materials required for your job; in that case, it would be part of your contract that you are self sufficient and capable.  It would be up to you and your contract terms how the materiel should be charged, if at all.

If you're a salaried employee, they must provide equipment for you to do your job.  Or buy it off you, or something, if you already own it (that sounds weird, and there's probably a correct process for those circumstances, don't trust me).

Tim

[Pack34]

If you're a contractor, it might not make sense for them to provide materials required for your job; in that case, it would be part of your contract that you are self sufficient and capable.  It would be up to you and your contract terms how the materiel should be charged, if at all.

If you're a salaried employee, they must provide equipment for you to do your job.  Or buy it off you, or something, if you already own it (that sounds weird, and there's probably a correct process for those circumstances, don't trust me).

Tim

Salaried

[miguelvp]

On startup companies it might make sense if you are a founder/owner, plus if it fails you get to keep your software/hardware.

If you don't get part of the benefits as part owner (unless it gets reinvested back) or commissions on top of your pay if no ownership is involved then the owner is just promoting you to let you collect equipment until you have enough of it and enough contacts to do it on your own without him getting a cut.

Bad business model on his part. Just make sure you put property labels on your equipment and keep invoices in case of trouble.

Edit: actually get yourself a safe box and lock your equipment away at the end of the day, after all you are getting paid for setting it up in the morning and putting away in the afternoon and they really couldn't say much because it's your equipment and you can express your concern for it being misused while you are not there.

[DavidDLC]

If you feel comfortable with this situation I will say it is ok.

I know I will have no problem doing this. It is a good justification to get yourself some gear that you will keep at the end.

David.

[EEVblog]

It's quite common, especially in larger companies where getting a bit of gear you need now to just get the job done is next to impossible.

[SeanB]

Remember as well that if it is your own money used to buy it you can claim the purchase price as a tax deduction, as a cost of work expense. Check your local laws and with the tax consultant you use.

[miguelvp]

In the US that will only work if you itemize deductions instead of using the standard deduction, and if you are paying a mortgage the itemized deductions will only come ahead if you have large medical expenses.

[Bored@Work]

It's quite common, especially in larger companies where getting a bit of gear you need now to just get the job done is next to impossible.

But Dave, not

having to buy all of my test equipment and software

Pack34 got a very bad deal here. I think the question is if he signed up for this, i.e. if it is in his contract. Is his salary extremely good, or not?  And if it isn't, how to get out of the situation?

If he needs to get out and if he can afford quitting the job my suggestion is he should quit. But first make sure to silently move the equipment out one by one, before handing in the notice.  Having proof of purchase would be a good idea.

If he can't afford quitting the job, well, that's a problem. Just living with it? Just telling the boss that this won't continue? Tricking the boss in paying for equipment in the future?

[Galenbo]

I think we should get the numbers here. If I'm payed 8000 euro a month, I don't have a problem with buying my own scope for 800 euro.
But if we change place the numbers, It's not so very interesting.

Occasionally I brougt my own equipment too, another field, like my welding device, my trailer, and because in 1995 I was tyred of filling the form and wait to get access to a camera, I bought my own and used it for the company.

On the other hand, I found it frustrating to have at home: a working mini-lab, good pc with dual screen for design, good chair, garage shop with some tools, and then have to work in the company with their crappy, missing, dated, dirty tools

If you really have to buy that equipment, I guess you have all freedom to choose them, too. A nice advantage. Does the company insurance cover them? What if one of collegues breaks it? Do they have access? What about repairs, updates?

[Timmay]

It depends on a lot of different factors. Is it required of your employer, how do you feel about it, does it make your job easier versus using other supplied tools that are not as convenient, would you get use out of the tools in the long run (other jobs, personal use, etc) what is your salary, do they require this verbally but didn't tell you think upon being hired, etc?

As a dual use aircraft mechanic (electrician/sheetmetal) I have probably purchased around 13 thousand dollars in tools over the past 13 years. I claimed what I could on taxes, made at least 80 K a year in salary (sometimes up to 120 K depending on overtime/travel) and was not required to. One example was installing rivnuts on an aircraft to attach a windscreen with built in wire strike for safety. The company supplied us with a hand installer that took about 9 minutes a rinvut. To me, this sucked when it comes to installing 96 per aircraft. So I purchased a hydraulic installer tool and cut a job into a tenth of the time it normally took. The tool cost money, I got some back on taxes, I got the job done sooner and sat around sooner. To me the purchase was well worth it compared to the stress of installing each rivnut by hand within a set schedule. Part of the other reason I did this is the company and the purpose of my job. I support military aircraft by modernizing them with both new systems and safety equipment. So when a job is done I get a good bit of satisfaction in what I do (some of us have even worked OT for free to meet military deployment cycles). I also get a lot of use of these tools outside of work (I off-road in my Jeep a lot and also have a large group of people who ask me to help them install everything from new CB radios to rebuilding their entire suspension, axles and body). So I feel satisfied in the use I get from those tools and gear.

This is just my two cents. I try to look at the positives of everything, I am sure Dave and other members here who have built of nice electronics labs don't regret a few years later buying that crimper, stripper or meter. As I said it really depends on the circumstances behind it all. Some users here will be totally against it and some will be for it and I am sure salary, long term use and company policy drive that opinion. My friend just got hired on to work on F-18 aircraft, he spent about 4 K on required tools to get the job and he brings in 100K a year, every situation is different.

[Dago]

I agree with everyone else here. Ie. it can be fine (and fairly common) that you take your own tools to work and use them. I do it all the time.

However if you need to explicitly BUY tools for work by yourself (tools that you otherwise would not want or need at home) then that is not ok. If you buy tools that you intended to buy for home anyway it sounds ok to me.

If this "borrowing of tools" is done in large amounts (like it sounds like) I'd start charging rent for the tools to cover wearing etc.

And like other people said I guess how ok it is depends on your contract and wage and what you need to buy and did you have it already etc.

[tautech]

One thing I'm concerned with is that I may be looking at a better power supply (something networked) as well as an electronic load since I'm moving more into power electronics. I'm also starting to look more into a basic pick-and-place. I've really sped up some prototyping and production with a basic stencil printer and oven.

If your employer had to hire/rent specialized equipment for you to complete your tasks, they might have a new found appreciation for the gear you supply "free of charge".
For him/her it should begger a bigger question, which is better for their tax position, hiring gear or buying it?

[nihilism]

It's common in Australia for tradespeople to provide their own tools.

If i was working in an electronics lab or workshop i would expect to provide my own hand tools and handheld multimeter etc. but not bench test equipment like power supplies, scopes, function gens etc, the company should provide that sort of stuff.

IMO if it's not easy to put in a bag at the end of the day and take home, the company should supply it.

[dannyf]

Has this happened to anyone else?

No problem in my book, as long as you think you are adequately compensated for that.

[Pack34]

I think we should get the numbers here. If I'm payed 8000 euro a month, I don't have a problem with buying my own scope for 800 euro.
But if we change place the numbers, It's not so very interesting.

Occasionally I brougt my own equipment too, another field, like my welding device, my trailer, and because in 1995 I was tyred of filling the form and wait to get access to a camera, I bought my own and used it for the company.

On the other hand, I found it frustrating to have at home: a working mini-lab, good pc with dual screen for design, good chair, garage shop with some tools, and then have to work in the company with their crappy, missing, dated, dirty tools

If you really have to buy that equipment, I guess you have all freedom to choose them, too. A nice advantage. Does the company insurance cover them? What if one of collegues breaks it? Do they have access? What about repairs, updates?

I make about 3500 USD a month, after taxes. Last year it was about two months pay.

We all work in a common area with each engineer to their own bench, so everyone has physical access to it. The really expensive stuff, none of the MEs have any use for so I think I'm fairly safe as far as damage goes. They do tend to use my fluke but that thing is a tank so I'm not concerned with damage for it. Although, I did catch my boss using my Agilent and Weller one Saturday. I don't think he's touched it since but I did have to replace two tips on my iron.

A main reason why I've been putting up with it is because I really need, and want, access to better gear. When I started, the tools I had to work with were a radio shack iron and solder (cosmetic tweezers for smd...), unbranded millimeter, and I believe it was a 10 MHz digital oscilloscope. If I was paid more, and didn't work so much, I'd probably be buying most of this equipment on my own lab at home but since I practically live in the office I keep all my tools there.

[G7PSK]

I have worked for companies in the past where buying your own tools was a requirement but at the same time they gave a weekly allowance to cover that and with a bit of judicious shopping around you could actually come out ahead at the end of the year.

[ConKbot]

If youre not being financially strained doing so, keep it up, be sure to label your items, keep your receipts, and be sure to claim a deduction. If youre spending $7k on equipment in a year, it shouldnt be a problem to itemize.  And at $3500/Mo you might be able to drop down a tax bracket, though that is just a SWAG on the numbers, havent broken out the calculator or anything.  Also keep an inventory of what you have. So if you ever end up going, you can make sure to take all your toys too.

[VK3DRB]

Who cares about compensation when you have to get the job done. Getting the job done is most important. Mind you, there are tight arses around who exploit their employees, especially in small companies. Large companies are usually full of bureaucracy. One place I worked at was bought out by private equity scum and as a result spending money on anything was next to impossible.

I loaned Dave's uCurrent to work to accurately measure some PWM currents in some LED's. Now colleagues ask for it regularly. I think it now qualifies as a tax deduction.

[Galenbo]

I make about 3500 USD a month, after taxes. Last year it was about two months pay.

We all work in a common area with each engineer to their own bench, so everyone has physical access to it. ...but I did have to replace two tips on my iron.

A main reason why I've been putting up with it is because I really need, and want, access to better gear. When I started, the tools I had to work with were a radio shack iron and solder (cosmetic tweezers for smd...), unbranded millimeter, and I believe it was a 10 MHz digital oscilloscope. If I was paid more, and didn't work so much, I'd probably be buying most of this equipment on my own lab at home but since I practically live in the office I keep all my tools there.

I don't know how to compare earnings after taxes, but here in central europe, everything above 2500 euro/month after taxes is well payed for a EE, tech, programmer (38hours a week, outside management and sales)

Maybe we can assume you are payed the supplementary 1000 euro a month for your equipment? But you say you practically live there, how many hours average do you work?

I think, in the end, it's you who has to decide if it's worth it. It can also be seen as an investment to get access to an even better job later. The only thing I strongly advise is to make decent agreements with your boss about insurance, theft, vandalism, blowup, repair, fire and so on. A list on paper, signed.

[AndersAnd]

Never heard of that before. Are you located in the US?
Because I've seen a lot of American hot rod and car restoration shows on Discovery Channel and noticed the mechanics often use their own private tools and bring thier large tool-wagon with them when they quit or are sacked. That would never happen here in Denmark. I've always found that strange why all the tools need aren't provided by the workplace. But I guess this works different in the US than Europe.
Here no-one would ever bring their own tools to work, not mechanics either.
And for jobs where you get dirty, requiring special work clothes and safety shoes, like mechanics and craftsmen, this will always be paid for by the employer too.

[GreyWoolfe]

My company will reimburse for tool purchases to do our job.  However, my situation is different as we are remote field techs and work from home.  On top of that we only need hand tools and maybe a multimeter on occasion.  I have a couple of very specialized tools that the company provided but I prefer to own my tools and those are strictly for work and stay in my company van.  I do claim my tools as a non reimbursable business expense,  I come out ahead itemizing as I have a home office.  If I had to bring expensive tools to work as the OP is doing, I would do so if doing it made me more productive or I had to just to get the job done.  However, I certainly wouldn't be letting anyone use my equipment, even my Fluke, and I would supply my own locked storage so no one would have access behind my back when I am not there.  If everyone else wants to share, they can cover part of the equipment cost or the boss can do the right thing and buy/rent what is needed.

[Pack34]

I make about 3500 USD a month, after taxes. Last year it was about two months pay.

We all work in a common area with each engineer to their own bench, so everyone has physical access to it. ...but I did have to replace two tips on my iron.

A main reason why I've been putting up with it is because I really need, and want, access to better gear. When I started, the tools I had to work with were a radio shack iron and solder (cosmetic tweezers for smd...), unbranded millimeter, and I believe it was a 10 MHz digital oscilloscope. If I was paid more, and didn't work so much, I'd probably be buying most of this equipment on my own lab at home but since I practically live in the office I keep all my tools there.

I don't know how to compare earnings after taxes, but here in central europe, everything above 2500 euro/month after taxes is well payed for a EE, tech, programmer (38hours a week, outside management and sales)

Maybe we can assume you are payed the supplementary 1000 euro a month for your equipment? But you say you practically live there, how many hours average do you work?

I think, in the end, it's you who has to decide if it's worth it. It can also be seen as an investment to get access to an even better job later. The only thing I strongly advise is to make decent agreements with your boss about insurance, theft, vandalism, blowup, repair, fire and so on. A list on paper, signed.

I do not receive supplementary income for equipment.

I work 60-70 hours a week. Typically 7:30-7:30 plus Saturdays

[tggzzz]

I'm almost afraid to ask. How common is this? I work in a real small shop (only EE), my employer and all of the other engineers are MEs. I've been having to buy all of my test equipment and software (Eagle, power supplies, gen, scope, etc).

Has this happened to anyone else?

In some industries the employers are worried about the employees breaking or nicking equipment.

You, and maybe your employer (and their insurers!), might like to consider liability. For example, what happens if your equipment is uncalibrated and that causes a bad product to be shipped? Or dangerously malfunctions and damages property or people? Or gets stolen or broken: who pays for it? Or a third party makes a claim and their assessors discover anything untoward that might help the claimant?

[ConKbot]

Who cares about compensation when you have to get the job done. Getting the job done is most important. Mind you, there are tight arses around who exploit their employees, especially in small companies. Large companies are usually full of bureaucracy. One place I worked at was bought out by private equity scum and as a result spending money on anything was next to impossible.

I loaned Dave's uCurrent to work to accurately measure some PWM currents in some LED's. Now colleagues ask for it regularly. I think it now qualifies as a tax deduction.

Easy there company man.  Gone are the days where people worked at the same company for 40 years because the company cared about the people that worked there and vice versa.  It's a job, you're there to get paid, they have you there to make money off of your skills.  Now days, when it comes down to it, a 35 year old veteran making $120k/year vs a new hire with a year or two experience at best getting paid under half that, a lot of companies wouldnt have very many qualms with a "restructuring" if it would suit them for whatever reason. 

Like you said, large companies are full of bureaucracy, next to impossible to spend money on things, etc...  Is their priority getting the job done? or is their priority their accounting department/shareholder statements? Enthusiasm and motivation is good on the job but remember where your employer's loyalties really lie.

[mikeselectricstuff]

One example was installing rivnuts on an aircraft to attach a windscreen with built in wire strike for safety. The company supplied us with a hand installer that took about 9 minutes a rinvut. To me, this sucked when it comes to installing 96 per aircraft. So I purchased a hydraulic installer tool and cut a job into a tenth of the time it normally took. The tool cost money

Seems odd that an industry as regulated as aviation would permit the use of employee-owned tools outside of their QC & calibration systems. If someone used their own, incorrect/faulty/out of spec tool for a job and damage was caused, there could be some interesting legal ramifications.

[Macbeth]

It's common in Australia for tradespeople to provide their own tools.

If i was working in an electronics lab or workshop i would expect to provide my own hand tools and handheld multimeter etc. but not bench test equipment like power supplies, scopes, function gens etc, the company should provide that sort of stuff.

IMO if it's not easy to put in a bag at the end of the day and take home, the company should supply it.

This pretty much was how it worked when I was a bench service engineer. Some of the more unusual hand tools like super long screwdriver used for removing TV tubes and such would be provided by my employer, as would more consumable tools like solder suckers. But stuff like oscilloscopes, bench meters, PSU's, etc, definitely came with the bench. I guess I could have got any hand tool I wanted free for the shop from the miserable parts acquisition guy, but it's just easier to have your own toolkit.

Garage mechanics apprentices too are suckers for buying stuff from the Snap-On salesman, including the roller cabs to keep it all in. They get to pay on the never never at high interest rates.

At the very least you should get an income tax deduction agreed with the tax office for your tools. I would consider going self employed contractor if you are supplying expensive equipment, if only to be able to claim back the VAT on your gear.

[ConKbot]

One example was installing rivnuts on an aircraft to attach a windscreen with built in wire strike for safety. The company supplied us with a hand installer that took about 9 minutes a rinvut. To me, this sucked when it comes to installing 96 per aircraft. So I purchased a hydraulic installer tool and cut a job into a tenth of the time it normally took. The tool cost money

Seems odd that an industry as regulated as aviation would permit the use of employee-owned tools outside of their QC & calibration systems. If someone used their own, incorrect/faulty/out of spec tool for a job and damage was caused, there could be some interesting legal ramifications.

+1 to this.  When I was doing aerospace machining, even the pocket scales got calibrated, and a serialized sticker on the back.   I'd expect a hydraulic tool to need calibration with some sort of go/nogo gauge. 

[Pack34]

It's common in Australia for tradespeople to provide their own tools.

If i was working in an electronics lab or workshop i would expect to provide my own hand tools and handheld multimeter etc. but not bench test equipment like power supplies, scopes, function gens etc, the company should provide that sort of stuff.

IMO if it's not easy to put in a bag at the end of the day and take home, the company should supply it.

This pretty much was how it worked when I was a bench service engineer. Some of the more unusual hand tools like super long screwdriver used for removing TV tubes and such would be provided by my employer, as would more consumable tools like solder suckers. But stuff like oscilloscopes, bench meters, PSU's, etc, definitely came with the bench. I guess I could have got any hand tool I wanted free for the shop from the miserable parts acquisition guy, but it's just easier to have your own toolkit.

Garage mechanics apprentices too are suckers for buying stuff from the Snap-On salesman, including the roller cabs to keep it all in. They get to pay on the never never at high interest rates.

At the very least you should get an income tax deduction agreed with the tax office for your tools. I would consider going self employed contractor if you are supplying expensive equipment, if only to be able to claim back the VAT on your gear.

I'm in the US though, I doubt any savings from taxes would make up for health insurance.

[Macbeth]

I'm in the US though, I doubt any savings from taxes would make up for health insurance.

Damn, I will never understand the craziness of US Healthcare. Sales tax (VAT in EU) in the USA is very low, but is around 20% in most of the EU so well worth claiming. You must be able to claim an income tax deduction as an employee for your tools though?

[Pack34]

I'm in the US though, I doubt any savings from taxes would make up for health insurance.

Damn, I will never understand the craziness of US Healthcare. Sales tax (VAT in EU) in the USA is very low, but is around 20% in most of the EU so well worth claiming. You must be able to claim an income tax deduction as an employee for your tools though?

Nope, looked into it. I would only be able to deduct it from taxes if I was self-employed.

[Macbeth]

America really hates their workers it seems. In the UK someone on PAYE can easily claim a tax deduction for tools and work clothes. We also have the NHS which pro-rata costs taxpayers half what the USA taxpayer pays on healthcare, yet needs employer insurance too, while NHS care is free at point of source.

Salaried employees also get more than 1-2 weeks holiday per year, and don't have to work 70 hour weeks.

[Macbeth]

Just to add an anecdote from the other end of the scale.

I was contracting for many years to a very large blue-chip insurance company. One of the latest new grad intake employees I worked with happened to like his Microsoft "natural" ergonomic keyboard that he used at home. So he brought it in the office and got on quite happily with his work. Then our project manager spotted it and went into panic mode. She asked him what it was and where did he get it? When he told her that it was his own keyboard from home, she insisted it be disconnected immediately and he can only use work supplied equipment.

So, this guy comes up with a reason for using it - he doesn't want RSI (repetitive strain injury) and an ergonomic keyboard is better than the crappy Compaq keyboard he had been using. Heh, call her bluff. She then insists that if that is the case then the company will buy it's own keyboard, but she will ask the Health & Safety if it is necessary.

Ok, H&S fully endorse the idea of ergonomic keyboards, but this guy can't use his own as it hasn't been PATS tested and hasn't come from the "preferred supplier" distribution channel.

So now the company has to procure a Microsoft natural keyboard as they have been warned they have a potential disaster on their hands (the legal department got involved) as they don't wan't to be sued for RSI complaints from this employee.

Problem is, none of the "preferred suppliers", Dell, Compaq, etc. stocked a Microsoft natural keyboard. So they had great difficulty in obtaining one (this is about 3 months after him bringing in his own keyboard).

Another 3 months later - a brand new MS natural keyboard arrives for this guy. But he can't use it until it has been PATS tested!!!. I kid you not - Elfen Safety insisted on PATS testing as it was not from their trusted preferred suppliers and have to cover their arses!!

We had totally forgotten about it and didn't give a fuck about his keyboard, but those 6 months of bureaucratic back and forth shenanigans must have cost the company £2500 rather than the £25 the original keyboard cost. I made sure not to include this companies shares in my portfolio, that's for sure!

Give me working for a small or medium company any day - lots more (interesting) work means the day goes by quicker, and overtime is enjoyable.

[tggzzz]

One example was installing rivnuts on an aircraft to attach a windscreen with built in wire strike for safety. The company supplied us with a hand installer that took about 9 minutes a rinvut. To me, this sucked when it comes to installing 96 per aircraft. So I purchased a hydraulic installer tool and cut a job into a tenth of the time it normally took. The tool cost money

Seems odd that an industry as regulated as aviation would permit the use of employee-owned tools outside of their QC & calibration systems. If someone used their own, incorrect/faulty/out of spec tool for a job and damage was caused, there could be some interesting legal ramifications.

+1 to this.  When I was doing aerospace machining, even the pocket scales got calibrated, and a serialized sticker on the back.   I'd expect a hydraulic tool to need calibration with some sort of go/nogo gauge.

Very definitely!

In a famous example of an improperly installed window, the pilot was sucked through the window and was only saved by cabin crew holding onto his legs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_5390

A relative, who works for a large aerospace corporation told me of an extremely concientious worker that once filled out some paperwork in the wrong order. No damage was (or could have been) done, but he was still sacked with prejudice.

[Neilm]

Another 3 months later - a brand new MS natural keyboard arrives for this guy. But he can't use it until it has been PATS tested!!!. I kid you not - Elfen Safety insisted on PATS testing as it was not from their trusted preferred suppliers and have to cover their arses!!

PAT testing a keyboard?
I thought Portable Appliance Testing only applies to mains powered equipment. You don't need to do it for new equipment (the safety test should have been done in the factory).  It isn't even compulsory to do it - you just have to be maintained in a safe condition. (UK rules)

[Macbeth]

Another 3 months later - a brand new MS natural keyboard arrives for this guy. But he can't use it until it has been PATS tested!!!. I kid you not - Elfen Safety insisted on PATS testing as it was not from their trusted preferred suppliers and have to cover their arses!!

PAT testing a keyboard?
I thought Portable Appliance Testing only applies to mains powered equipment. You don't need to do it for new equipment (the safety test should have been done in the factory).  It isn't even compulsory to do it - you just have to be maintained in a safe condition. (UK rules)

Yes, but the retards that work in management don't know that, and the same HSE retards will jump at anything that justifies their position of power and vast salary for a non-job.

I've always found a way to keep my head low in big corps with shiny-arsed non-jobbers, it usually involves having a few pints with the guys that work in other departments as DBA's or networking specialists. You soon find out the good ones are contractors too and are essential to getting the job done without getting involved in the politics and dealing with all the tiers of management and shite at big-corp.

Thankfully I have never worked public sector. I think I would go postal if I had to put up with the unionised non-job politically correct "one man one job" scum that seem to enjoy "working" there.

Give me lots of work, tight deadlines, GOOD stress, and I love working. Good pay too!

[GreyWoolfe]

Nope, looked into it. I would only be able to deduct it from taxes if I was self-employed.
[/quote]

Let me make sure I understand this.  You are using your own tools on your job that you dedicate only for your job.  The company provides no reimbursement or rental income to you for the equipment.  You were told you can't deduct the cost of your tools as a non reimbursable business expense?  Something seems odd about this.  As I said in my previous post, I am a remote field tech with a home office, but I deduct tools I purchase strictly for the job several times a year, either as new tools or replacing worn out ones.  I prefer to own my tools instead of getting reimbursement and the tools becoming property of the company.  I even deduct my company shirts as my company doesn't provide enough and I buy extra.  I have not had an issue in the past 10 years of doing it and I am a full time employee not a contractor.  Maybe the difference is you work at a facility where I work from home.  I would still get a couple more opinions on this.

[ConKbot]

<snip>
I would still get a couple more opinions on this.

+1 Calling a CPA would probably shed some light on it. Its a pretty cut and dry question, they could answer it over the phone (after all, how else would you know what forms to bring in to re-do and re-file last years taxes too if you still have documentation of expenses from last year. )

[hammy]

salaried employee
I've been having to buy all of my test equipment and software (Eagle, power supplies, gen, scope, etc).
I get a couple hundred for a holiday bonus, but that's about it.
I make about 3500 USD a month, after taxes.
I did catch my boss using my Agilent and Weller one Saturday
I work 60-70 hours a week. Typically 7:30-7:30 plus Saturdays
I do not receive supplementary income for equipment.

Is this a job or slavery?

[T3sl4co1l]

Slavery.  You're making $13.50/hr salaried PLUS bringing in your own equipment?

Tim

[Pack34]

Is this a job or slavery?

First design engineering job out of college. It's with a small robotics outfit.

I just wanted to gauge how common my situation is with the engineering community as a whole. I've always heard engineering was more hours than normal, so I'm expecting 60 hour weeks wherever I go, just wasn't sure with the whole equipment part. I've been looking at job ads and it seems I will definitely require a substantial move if I want to stay in design. But, I didn't want to take that kind of plunge if I'd be in the same boat elsewhere.

I'd love to stay, push the company to be something bigger and better than what it is. But I'm not sure of my sanity and financial situation can tough it out... My wife is graduating soon and we'll have her student loans to deal with too.

Slavery.  You're making $13.50/hr salaried PLUS bringing in your own equipment?

Tim

$3,500 after taxes, not before. I'm in the low $20s per hour.

[miguelvp]

It's slavery:

52 weeks in a year is 4.33 weeks in a month
12 hours a day weekdays and 10 hours Saturdays is 70 hours a week.
$22.50 per hour would be $1575 a week (Not counting overtime since 30 of those hours should be time and a half or $900+$1012.5=$1912.50/week)

Let's go with the lower number, $1575*4.33 = $6819.75.

Are you saying you pay $3319.75 on taxes every month?

But of course they probably just pay you for 40 hr/week $900*4.33= $3897/month of those $397/month go away in taxes

So the fair monthly salary at $22.50/hour with overtime will be $8281.13/month. So they are shorting you of $4384.13 per month and you have to buy your own equipment.

Edit: if you divide $900 week by the 70 hours you put in, your pay is really $12.86/hr. Is there company stock options involved at least?

[VK3DRB]

Who cares about compensation when you have to get the job done. Getting the job done is most important. Mind you, there are tight arses around who exploit their employees, especially in small companies. Large companies are usually full of bureaucracy. One place I worked at was bought out by private equity scum and as a result spending money on anything was next to impossible.

I loaned Dave's uCurrent to work to accurately measure some PWM currents in some LED's. Now colleagues ask for it regularly. I think it now qualifies as a tax deduction.

Easy there company man.  Gone are the days where people worked at the same company for 40 years because the company cared about the people that worked there and vice versa.  It's a job, you're there to get paid, they have you there to make money off of your skills.  Now days, when it comes down to it, a 35 year old veteran making $120k/year vs a new hire with a year or two experience at best getting paid under half that, a lot of companies wouldnt have very many qualms with a "restructuring" if it would suit them for whatever reason. 

Like you said, large companies are full of bureaucracy, next to impossible to spend money on things, etc...  Is their priority getting the job done? or is their priority their accounting department/shareholder statements? Enthusiasm and motivation is good on the job but remember where your employer's loyalties really lie.

I am not a company man, I am an electronics man.

I agree with you on other points though. Companies like IBM in Australia betrayed many of their loyal hard working and highly skilled employees, as they found sneaky ways to get rid of them at lowest possible cost. IBM Australia robbed me of about $40,000 in superannuation back in 1998. Let's just say they lost about $2 million of business to date through lost contracts in certain organisations . Unfortunately, big corporates' paradigm of "one-way loyalty" has adversely affected many decent companies run by morally upright people.

This is where most CEO loyalties really lie... http://www.aflcio.org/Corporate-Watch/Paywatch-2014

[LabSpokane]

I've worked for some really small outfits in the US. Without exception, the scopes, power supplies, irons, specialized crimping tools,etc. were ALWAYS purchased by the company. This was simply understood to be obviously the company's responsibility. Small hand tools were typically on your own.

If I brought my own meter, the company would replace my worn out cables, etc, gratis.

If you're supplying software for your company and not being compensated as an independent contractor, that's bullshit. In fact, there might even be some weird IP/royalty issues that you could get saddled with by doing that.

I can't tell you to quit, but you should damned well reconsider subsidizing your employer's business unless he is cutting you a piece of the action.

[LabSpokane]

I just wanted to gauge how common my situation is with the engineering community as a whole.

Your situation is totally f'ed up. 20+ extra hours AND specialized equipment?!  You get a piece of the action for that. Not simple salary. You're an investor, friend.

[tggzzz]

I agree with you on other points though. Companies like IBM in Australia betrayed many of their loyal hard working and highly skilled employees, as they found sneaky ways to get rid of them at lowest possible cost. IBM Australia robbed me of about $40,000 in superannuation back in 1998. Let's just say they lost about $2 million of business to date through lost contracts in certain organisations . Unfortunately, big corporates' paradigm of "one-way loyalty" has adversely affected many decent companies run by morally upright people.

Written when HP was undergoing one of its first traumas after Hewlett and Packard had gone, this article went around HP like wildfire http://www.satirewire.com/news/0105/loyal.shtml It begins

LOYAL EMPLOYEES A VALUABLE ASSET,
SO NOW IS A GOOD TIME TO SELL THEM
Companies Can Get Top Dollar for Their Most Faithful Workers

Palo Alto, Cal. (SatireWire.com) — In an age when employees are labeled 'human capital' and workplace longevity is measured in months, some companies have finally begun to realize that a truly loyal employee is a rare and valuable asset that should be recognized, nurtured, and, ideally, sold to the highest bidder.

...

[tszaboo]

I brought a set of Staedtler technical pen and a uRuler to work. That is as far as I will ever go.
If I need tools, I just add it to the usual POs I'm writing for prototyping components.
Buying equipment for your company is not OK, unless you are a consultant. But than please pay the usual consultant fees.

[hans]

I haven't heard of anything like this before.

I think if equipment is being used from someone's "private collection" it would be a outspoken request at the least.
Remember that your employer may very well know that it's your own tools used for work, but if he would bring that up it would come down to extra cost for him. There would be a chance you take your stuff with you, and he would have to buy their own worth thousands of dollars.

OTOH, if you work 60-70 hours a week I cannot imagine you have any energy/use for the equipment left at home. At least I wouldn't want to do even more engineering after such weeks.
I would also at least make sure your employer knows that you put in a lot of extra effort in those (I hope some?!) weeks, and desire the compensation in terms of money or time off at other weeks (to get down to a healthy average). I'm not sure what US work conditions allow - I'm pretty sure European/Dutch work conditions are much more in favor of protection the employee and there are some laws to enforce employees work at a healthy average/week.

[Psi]

Some of the software you bought will be embedding your license S/N into all the companies files.

Tell them that when/if you leave you will have to take every copy of the files with you and remove them from all company servers. 

That should freak them out 

[MasterBuilder]

The OP clearly enjoys his work and is loyal to the small company he works for but his work is not rewarded.

In a place I used to work if my employer didnt provide the tools, the work didnt get done or took much longer to do with inadequate tools be they hand tools, test equipment or software. This was a cost for my employer and it was his choice whether to purchase the tools or not, if he didnt the company suffered the extra cost. I'm sure the employer would have preferred if I " just got the job done" and bought the tools out of my pocket, but this would have only made sense for me if it would have got me much better pay and a discounted price on the tools, test equipment or software.

What should the OP do? I think its time to start finishing work after 40 hours and spend the time gained finding a better job and interviewing. If another job offer was obtained, present it to the current employer and they will soon up pay and conditions or have to find someone willing to work all day and provide their own gear for low pay. Loyalty to an employer is missplaced and a thing of the past.

[IanB]

First design engineering job out of college. It's with a small robotics outfit.

I just wanted to gauge how common my situation is with the engineering community as a whole. I've always heard engineering was more hours than normal, so I'm expecting 60 hour weeks wherever I go, just wasn't sure with the whole equipment part. I've been looking at job ads and it seems I will definitely require a substantial move if I want to stay in design. But, I didn't want to take that kind of plunge if I'd be in the same boat elsewhere.

I'd love to stay, push the company to be something bigger and better than what it is. But I'm not sure of my sanity and financial situation can tough it out... My wife is graduating soon and we'll have her student loans to deal with too.

Your situation is completely abnormal. You are being taken advantage of.

The normal situation is that your employer provides the tools and facilities to do your job. If you need a fully equipped electronics lab, your employer provides you with a fully equipped electronics lab in the workplace. You do not buy your work tools out of your own money, that is crazy. Your pay is your compensation for doing your job. You get to keep it. All of it.

Secondly, normal working hours for a salaried employee are about 40 hours a week. You come in at 8, take an hour for lunch, go home at 5, and stay home at weekends. Yes, there will be busy periods and special times when you go above and beyond that, but you don't routinely work six days a week in any normal job.

It's going to be very difficult for you to change things now because you have established a pattern and it will be hard to break it. If at all possible you should look for a new job, and try to start off on the right foot with that one.

[Pack34]

It's slavery:

52 weeks in a year is 4.33 weeks in a month
12 hours a day weekdays and 10 hours Saturdays is 70 hours a week.
$22.50 per hour would be $1575 a week (Not counting overtime since 30 of those hours should be time and a half or $900+$1012.5=$1912.50/week)

Let's go with the lower number, $1575*4.33 = $6819.75.

Are you saying you pay $3319.75 on taxes every month?

But of course they probably just pay you for 40 hr/week $900*4.33= $3897/month of those $397/month go away in taxes

So the fair monthly salary at $22.50/hour with overtime will be $8281.13/month. So they are shorting you of $4384.13 per month and you have to buy your own equipment.

Edit: if you divide $900 week by the 70 hours you put in, your pay is really $12.86/hr. Is there company stock options involved at least?

Official is $4,500 / month before taxes and about $1,000 is deducted for taxes leaving me with a $3,500 take home.

To break it down hourly, 54,000 / 52 / 40 is about 25.96 before taxes with a 20.19 per hour take-home. Assuming a floor of 60 hours brings me in at 17.30 and 13.46. A ceiling of 70 would be 14.84 and 11.53.

To put some cost of living perspective to it, minimum rent for a 2 bedroom apartment in my area is $800.

Now, I'm not greedy. I make enough to be happy and when my wife finds employment after she graduates we'll have a second income to the mix and we'll make enough to live frugally and keep moving money into our retirement. I'm just burned out and gear is expensive.

As for stock... I don't think the company believes in it. Tried and failed to get the company seriously talking about patents but that didn't fly...

Gear wise:
Agilent MSOX 2024 Scope
Agilent E3611 power supply
Off brand function generator (purchased prior to the MSO 2024) I want to say, General Instruments?
Circuit Specialists power supply
USB microscope (Adafruit)
Reflow gun (Sparkfun)
Weller WESD51 soldering station
Fluke 89 millimeter with ponoma precision probes
Stencil printer (China)
Reflow oven T9624A (China)

Software:
Firmware compiler (license dongle and a pair of dev boards)
Eagle
Photoshop (product photos, website stuff, etc. Got it at a student price)

[Macbeth]

You are married too? I thought you would be a single young man with time to spare. Seriously, constant 70 hour weeks will eventually lead to your wife looking elsewhere. It's not healthy. Your employer is a cad and is not showing you any respect.

[Kjelt]

So is this a startup company like say <10 people?
If so and you are the only person that has to do this line of work it might be just that they have no clue what the stuff costs.
Do they pay for their laptop or computer or does the company provide those for them? The printer? The coffee? The electronic parts for the products?

The only way I can imagine putting up with this crap is when it is a startup company that is low on cash and every month it is a new test to make sure to pay the bills and salaries.
But in case of a startup you should get some stockoptions (lets say a couple of % at least) so if it does become a success that you will benefit from it.
So does this company have problems paying the bills or is it just you they are skimming on?
Who owns the company, do any of your colleagues do have stock or stockoptions?

So if you get no stock(options) or any other future way of compensating your expenses I would talk to my boss and give him some options:
Option 1) the company starts paying for the equipment
Option 2) we make a contract where the company leases my equipment for 8% per month of the original cost of the equipment.

Start looking for another job though, I understand you can't quit while not having something else esp. when more persons eat from the salary but geeeesz this sounds more like some 3rd world country practices than the US.

[gocemk]

I work in a small startup company (<10 people). I bring my own tools DAILY, mostly multimeters and programmers/debuggers and also my laptop. I do it because i refuse to use the 'no name' 15 € multimeters that i have at work, and the laptop that i was given has no battery at all, so it's pretty much useless for any filed work (which i do pretty often). The company refuses to buy decent test equipment ("too expensive because we already have the tools that gets the job done?!?!?!"). So, bringing my own tools makes MY LIFE AND JOB much easier and that's why i do it. Oh, and the best part: I work 50-60 hours a week (mostly field work) and i am payed 300 €/month.

[Macbeth]

I work in a small startup company (<10 people). I bring my own tools DAILY, mostly multimeters and programmers/debuggers and also my laptop. I do it because i refuse to use the 'no name' 15 € multimeters that i have at work, and the laptop that i was given has no battery at all, so it's pretty much useless for any filed work (which i do pretty often). The company refuses to buy decent test equipment ("too expensive because we already have the tools that gets the job done?!?!?!"). So, bringing my own tools makes MY LIFE AND JOB much easier and that's why i do it. Oh, and the best part: I work 50-60 hours a week (mostly field work) and i am payed 300 €/month.

300 €/month for 60 hours/week? Also field work means using car and petrol, I hope you are getting reimbursed for that!

I guess your rent is only something like 50 €/month. But from what I have seen, food and stuff is still as expensive in Eastern Europe as in the West.

Damn I spend 300 € in a fortnight just on food and beer alone.

[gocemk]

I work in a small startup company (<10 people). I bring my own tools DAILY, mostly multimeters and programmers/debuggers and also my laptop. I do it because i refuse to use the 'no name' 15 € multimeters that i have at work, and the laptop that i was given has no battery at all, so it's pretty much useless for any filed work (which i do pretty often). The company refuses to buy decent test equipment ("too expensive because we already have the tools that gets the job done?!?!?!"). So, bringing my own tools makes MY LIFE AND JOB much easier and that's why i do it. Oh, and the best part: I work 50-60 hours a week (mostly field work) and i am payed 300 €/month.

300 €/month for 60 hours/week? Also field work means using car and petrol, I hope you are getting reimbursed for that!

I guess your rent is only something like 50 €/month. But from what I have seen, food and stuff is still as expensive in Eastern Europe as in the West.

Damn I spend 300 € in a fortnight just on food and beer alone.

I use a company car for the field work, and the expenses for staying in a hotel are also covered by the company. I don't rent. I still live with my parents and i travel to work every day by bus (~50 min.), because my job is in another city. And yes, the prices for the tools are much higher here than in Western Europe or the US. Food is pretty much the same price.

[AndersAnd]

Slavery.  You're making $13.50/hr salaried PLUS bringing in your own equipment?

$3,500 after taxes, not before. I'm in the low $20s per hour.

I'm not sure how this compares to similar jobs in the US? But it sounds very low for an engineering job if you have to pay for very expensive equipment out of your on pocket (after tax) and have to work 60-70 hours pr. week without extra overtime compensation.

I know you can't compare directly as the costs of living are different, but here in Denmark you get paid more for flipping burgers at McDonald's or Burger King.
For employees above 18 years working at restaurants doing the dishes or whatever (including McDonald's and Burger King) the minimum wage is 20.48 USD pr. hour before tax, with a standard 37 hour work week (yes 37 hours is standard for all workers in Denmark). And you don't have to bring your own grill or burger flipper, these are provided by the workplace.
And every worker in Denmark gets at least 5 weeks off every year, by law.

From 18.00-24.00 on weekdays and from 14.00-24.00 on Saturdays you get extra 2.97 USD pr. hour.
On Sundays you get 4,05 USD extra pr. hour.

If you work overtime you get +50 % pr. hour for the first two hours.
After the first two hours overtime it's +100 % pr. hour.
If you work overtime after midnight it's always +100 % pr. hour from the first hour.

Source in Danish: http://www.jobpatruljen.dk/loenogregler/Regler%20og%20Love/Loensatser/Hotel-restauration.aspx

[Pack34]

Slavery.  You're making $13.50/hr salaried PLUS bringing in your own equipment?

$3,500 after taxes, not before. I'm in the low $20s per hour.

I'm not sure how this compares to similar jobs in the US? But it sounds very low for an engineering job if you have to pay for very expensive equipment out of your on pocket (after tax) and have to work 60-70 hours pr. week without extra overtime compensation.

I know you can't compare directly as the costs of living are different, but here in Denmark you get paid more for flipping burgers at McDonald's or Burger King.
For employees above 18 years working at restaurants doing the dishes or whatever (including McDonald's and Burger King) the minimum wage is 20.48 USD pr. hour before tax, with a standard 37 hour work week (yes 37 hours is standard for all workers in Denmark). And you don't have to bring your own grill or burger flipper, these are provided by the workplace.
And every worker in Denmark gets at least 5 weeks off every year, by law.

From 18.00-24.00 on weekdays and from 14.00-24.00 on Saturdays you get extra 2.97 USD pr. hour.
On Sundays you get 4,05 USD extra pr. hour.

If you work overtime you get +50 % pr. hour for the first two hours.
After the first two hours overtime it's +100 % pr. hour.
If you work overtime after midnight it's always +100 % pr. hour from the first hour.

Source in Danish: http://www.jobpatruljen.dk/loenogregler/Regler%20og%20Love/Loensatser/Hotel-restauration.aspx

5 weeks!? The most I've ever had was 2 and that has always included sick days. Hell, I've had to work holidays (new years, labor, independence, etc).

Burger flippers here make about $7.25 USD an hour.

[IanB]

5 weeks!? The most I've ever had was 2 and that has always included sick days. Hell, I've had to work holidays (new years, labor, independence, etc).

Yeah, it's not common to get 5 weeks in the US, but you should get more than two. Two weeks vacation allowance is for sweat shops. Professional companies will give you three or even four weeks, increasing with long service. If the two weeks also includes sick days that is slave labor.

Working holidays should be under exceptional circumstances only. It should not be a regular thing, and if you do work a holiday you should get compensating time off later to make up for it.

It really sounds like time to be looking for a better job. (You're not an H1B from India, are you? You seem to be putting up with a bunch of mistreatment without objecting to it.)

[hammy]

It's the legal minimum in the whole of the EU I believe. Also, if you get sick during your holiday it counts as sick days, not as holiday.

Right. Two weeks in one piece at least once in a year.

[Kjelt]

Friend of mine worked at an oil rig as electronics support, 4 weeks on 16 hours a day, 4 weeks off and double the salary/month with paying a lot less taxes since he is stationed in international waters, don't know how that works exactly but he has a good time (when he is off) 

[miguelvp]

Friend of mine worked at an oil rig as electronics support, 4 weeks on 16 hours a day, 4 weeks off and double the salary/month with paying a lot less taxes since he is stationed in international waters, don't know how that works exactly but he has a good time (when he is off) 

My dad used to do that, he was a telecommunications engineer(radio, radar, etc.) working for Mobil, then Exxon bought the oil platforms not sure how many companies took over.

2 months work in Nigeria then one whole month home (Spain), half of his pay was in British pounds the other half in US dollars, he is retired now. There where many revolutions while he was there, he always said: mostly they leave us alone because we work in the resources they are fighting for.

He didn't like the helipads landings but most of the time he was inland he only had to go to the platforms a few times.

[wiss]

It's the legal minimum in the whole of the EU I believe. Also, if you get sick during your holiday it counts as sick days, not as holiday.

Right. Two weeks in one piece at least once in a year.

Here, you do not have the "right" to two weeks consecutively, the employer can be fined if you do not take it

[AndersAnd]

5 weeks!? The most I've ever had was 2 and that has always included sick days. Hell, I've had to work holidays (new years, labor, independence, etc).

Burger flippers here make about $7.25 USD an hour.

5 weeks is the minimum required by law here. But in reality almost all workers have 6 weeks agreed through collective bargaining agreements.
If you are sick during holidays it doesn't count as holidays.
The law also states you are entitled to have 3 of these 5 weeks as continuous uninterrupted holidays in the main holiday season from May 1 to September 30.

As many say: "Europeans Work To Live And Americans Live To Work":
http://people.hmdc.harvard.edu/~akozaryn/myweb/docs/final_work_to_live.pdf
"Americans work 50% more than the Germans, the French and the Italians".

[coppice]

As many say: "Europeans Work To Live And Americans Live To Work":

That's rubbish. Most Americans work because they can't live unless they do.

[Kjelt]

"Americans work 50% more than the Germans, the French and the Italians".

In hours maybe but the productivity per day is about equal. Only countries were they work an extra day (saturday) get higher results which leads me to believe that a human being is only capable of a productivity of x hours a day which is independent on the actual hours spent in the office. Excluded peak performances over a short time.

[miguelvp]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2013/10/10/unhappy-employees-outnumber-happy-ones-by-two-to-one-worldwide/

In the US we do like our jobs, so yeah working extra when really needed is second nature, as for productivity well It's pretty much up there. Our level of engagement is 2nd to Panama which for some reason they are the most engaged workers.

Still that study is for the whole, so educated people that hold jobs in the US are probably the happier ones, 30% engagement is not bad at all

[Kjelt]

US scores pretty high, but they probably should start to measure these stats, state per state, since most states in the US are much larger than an european country   
So now of the top 10,  8 countries are from Europe which kinda makes it look out of place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked

[Galenbo]

$3,500 after taxes, not before. I'm in the low $20s per hour.

I'm not sure how this compares to similar jobs in the US?

You have to compare also the cost of living in some region in the US. Like the huge renting differences between silicon valley and the rural areas.

but here in Denmark you get paid more for flipping burgers at McDonald's or Burger King.
... the minimum wage is 20.48 USD pr. hour before tax,

You are wrong here. You compare figures before and after tax.

But anyhow, paying so much money for those burgerguys is a minimumwage socialistic action, now the money is gone, they will have to return from that.
Don't compare that to someone who is trying to build up a decent life, experience and career.

[miguelvp]

US scores pretty high, but they probably should start to measure these stats, state per state, since most states in the US are much larger than an european country   
So now of the top 10,  8 countries are from Europe which kinda makes it look out of place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked

Now you take the tax haven contributions to the GDP most of those top countries. I mean if you make it so multinationals will route their money to avoid taxes, it's the same as helping them evade those taxes, but hey, even half the percentage times billions still bring billions to those countries.

But it's ok, cities in the states do the same to attract companies and bring employment to their area, but at least they have their federal obligations regardless.

[AndersAnd]

$3,500 after taxes, not before. I'm in the low $20s per hour.

but here in Denmark you get paid more for flipping burgers at McDonald's or Burger King.
... the minimum wage is 20.48 USD pr. hour before tax,

You are wrong here. You compare figures before and after tax.

Actually you're then one who's wrong here. The "in the low $20s" and $20.48 are both before tax.
Pack34 first said he earned $3,500 after tax which T3sl4co1l then calculated equals approx $13.5 pr. hour with his 60-70 hour work week. That's not too far off if you do the math, it might even be a bit lower than $13.5, so it's far from $20.
Then Pack34 pointed out that the 3,500 was after tax and that he is in the low $20s per hour [this is beofre tax even though he wasn't very clear about this, and was a response to the $13.5 pr. hour after tax]. So I compared his "in the low $20s" before tax to minimum $20.48 before tax at McDonald's and Burger King here in Denmark. But here you also gets extra $2.97 pr. hour for working after 18:00 on weekdays and after 14:00 on Saturdays and a lot extra for working overtime with a 60-70 hour work week. If you work more than 37 hours pr. week you get +50 % - 100 % extra pr. hour overtime as I mentioned earlier. So the minimum wage working the same hours as Pack34 does will be a lot higher than $20.48 before tax.

Here's what they said:

I make about 3500 USD a month, after taxes. Last year it was about two months pay.

I work 60-70 hours a week. Typically 7:30-7:30 plus Saturdays

Slavery.  You're making $13.50/hr salaried PLUS bringing in your own equipment?

Tim

$3,500 after taxes, not before. I'm in the low $20s per hour.

[tszaboo]

US scores pretty high, but they probably should start to measure these stats, state per state, since most states in the US are much larger than an european country   
So now of the top 10,  8 countries are from Europe which kinda makes it look out of place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked

Now you take the tax haven contributions to the GDP most of those top countries. I mean if you make it so multinationals will route their money to avoid taxes, it's the same as helping them evade those taxes, but hey, even half the percentage times billions still bring billions to those countries.

But it's ok, cities in the states do the same to attract companies and bring employment to their area, but at least they have their federal obligations regardless.

GDP is one of the most useless way to compare countries. First, it is based on one country's currency, and ratios change. Secondly, it doesnt take price index or the actual work, and million other factors into consideration.
If they cut your hair in Mumbai, you will pay something like 2 Euros, 20 Euros in Denmark and 10 in the USA. While the results and the amount of work are the same, and the actual value of the work is also the same (close to nothing) the GDP will be different. If you have a country with only two law firms "giving advice to each other" your GDP can be ridiculously high and the actual created product is nothing.
I really dont know, why the mainsteem economic science is that behind other scientific fields.

[Galenbo]

Actually you're then one who's wrong here. The "in the low $20s" and $20.48 are both before tax.
Pack34 first said he earned $3,500 after tax which T3sl4co1l then calculated equals approx $13.5 pr. hour with his 60-70 hour work week. That's not too far off if you do the math, it might even be a bit lower than $13.5, so it's far from $20.

I think you are right here.

His 20/hr are after tax, but if you count his 60-70 hr week, it +-equals a 38hr union hamburger job salary per hour in Denmark.

But I still think the comparison is wrong, the most boring jobs I did till now brought me the most money, the ones where I got some freedom and the possibility to learn a lot, much less.

   

[AndersAnd]

I think you are right here.

His 20/hr are after tax

You mean before tax. The $13.5 mentioned was after tax.

But I still think the comparison is wrong, the most boring jobs I did till now brought me the most money, the ones where I got some freedom and the possibility to learn a lot, much less.

And engineering job pays a lot more than a regular job at a burger joint regardless of what country you're in unless it's some communist country or something. And also regardless of how boring people find flipping burgers or similar.

[Galenbo]

I think you are right here.

His 20/hr are after tax

You mean before tax. The $13.5 mentioned was after tax.

He said 3500/month after tax. In my country we divide this by the official work hours/month, witch is 166hrs/month, so we get 21/hr.
The hours he really does (if not payed extra) are never taken into account.

Some jobs offer a lot of freedom: Like 3500/month to simply get it done. No matter how and how much the guy works. No matter how much time he spends on EEVblog, Facebook or in data specs for his home project.

[Galenbo]

And engineering job pays a lot more than a regular job at a burger joint regardless of what country you're in unless it's some communist country or something.

I must admit, I live in "some communist country or something"

A 38hr engineering-engineering job pays maximum 3600 euro/month here, before tax, so you end up with max 2400 euro/month. Starters often get 1600 euro after tax, witch is the same as the experienced hamburgerguy here.

Higher salaries are found in engineering-sales, engineering-peoplemanagement, engineering-bureaucrat, engineering-facilities, engineering-HVACprojects, engineering-owner, engineering-subsidysearcher, all often mistoken for engineering jobs.

[Galenbo]

GDP is one of the most useless way to compare countries. First, it is based on ...
... If you have a country with only two law firms "giving advice to each other" your GDP can be ridiculously high and the actual created product is nothing.
I really dont know, why the mainsteem economic science is that behind other scientific fields.

It's also a highly manipulated number. I saw a critical review of the numbers of our country, government branches indeed billing eatchother together with "friendly" companies, government overhead alone created a multiple number compared with the total private, including road works , infrastructure, harbour, airports etc.

In Economic science, it's known. Every number has its significance, no number is perfect, but there is a strong will to have a scala of "usable" easy numbers, professionals know about the downsides.
The only guy who's wrong, is the newspaper reader who wants to explain you some story, exclusively based on this number.

[PedroDaGr8]

I'm not an EE at all, just hobbyist; I am a nanomaterials chemist to be exact. But a while back, we had a project at work where I was replacing the paper chart recorders with a custom digital system (that is what happens when you open your mouth too much). During the initial prototyping phase I had to bring in some of my own stuff (like soldering iron, wire cutters, etc.) because we didn't have any of that. I actually brought in some passives as well to use while stuff was on order. Once the initial prototype was complete and we decided to scale up, the company purchased ALL of the tools and parts I said we needed to do the project (Hot-Air gun, soldering iron, snips, solder, flux, etc.). Having to source from home, sometimes happens in a pinch but it should NOT be the basis of your job. The company is basically using your tools for free, great for them because your effective salary is even less. You should begin charging them a rental fee for the use of your tools.

[Pack34]

I don't know if I should laugh or cry. As of the end of the year the company will no longer offer health insurance. Just a small monthly stipend and a link to the ACA website...

Anyone here willing to vet my resume?

[vk6zgo]

I have certainly supplied equipment from home,but mainly when I was working in small organisations.

Big firms & government entities normally supplied all of the equipment needed,& rented it if they didn't have it.
Of course,you had to convince the Boss that you really needed it,& couldn't do a "work-around".

Strangely,my jobs with big employers & the Govt were less bureaucratic than the small ones.
They wanted to "just get things done",whereas the small ones were always worried about silly protocol.

Of course,my experience with the big places was mainly prior to the advent of "modern management practices",many of which seem to originate in the rear end of a horse!

[ampdoctor]

This seems to be a trend with a lot of companies. A few weeks ago I was offered a position that involved laying out boards in 2 and 4 layers with Altium, firmware coding in C and C++, along with setting up in house product development facilities, and doing some occasional CAD work and maintaining their logistics software, because they want to begin doing more things on site and use fewer contract engineering services in order to "provide more value to their clients".

The salary offered was 40k/yr before taxes and not negotiable, no healthcare and no benefits.  Translation: "we need engineers but we don't want to pay for them"  For that level of responsibility and accountability it was a non-starter and I would need substantially more than what they were offering. I was outta that interview so fast you could feel the breeze I left in my wake. The only person that would MAYBE take that job is an EIT fresh out of school looking to beef up their resume.

I don't understand how companies can in one breath say they're having a hard time finding quality employees while refusing to pay them even a fraction of what they're worth. Of course they're going to get bottom of the barrel talent. It's madness!

[coppice]

The salary offered was 40k/yr before taxes and not negotiable, no healthcare and no benefits.

If you are going to quote a salary you need to state the currency. I assume that if healthcare is an issue, this will be US$.

I don't understand how companies can in one breath say they're having a hard time finding quality employees while refusing to pay them even a fraction of what they're worth. Of course they're going to get bottom of the barrel talent. It's madness!

This has always been the industry standard. It results from poor management and poor sales people. If they can't generate the business needed to pay engineers properly, they really can't pay engineers properly. That is the actual state of affairs in many companies, especially small ones, and its a vicious circle. They stumble around failing to generate enough business for a design or service to be able to properly finance its development. The product or service ends up sucking, which further reduces their ability to generate enough business around it to properly finance the next thing they develop. The answer from management is "sell more stuff". The response from sales is "the stuff we have won't sell, but we have this fantastic idea for a new thing that would".

[Kjelt]

I don't understand how companies can in one breath say they're having a hard time finding quality employees while refusing to pay them even a fraction of what they're worth.

This has always been the industry standard. It results from poor management and poor sales people. If they can't generate the business needed to pay engineers properly, they really can't pay engineers properly.

IMO the real problem lies in the fact that there is no existing economical formula or practice in business to calculate the "worth" of an engineer. If you have a team of 5 engineers that create a product that is so great they sell millions and make millions the salespeople get the money since they sold the products and can calculate how much they sold and "made" for the company, the same for the marketing and other managers. The engineers that created that product in the first place are totally forgotten or you must be so lucky that you invented the blue led and have to sue your company to get some real money and wait another 20+ years for finally get recognition in the nobel price. Engineering is under the radar of those who go over the money and that should change. A good engineer should earn more than a bad manager. A brilliant engineer should start his own company.

[VK3DRB]

This seems to be a trend with a lot of companies. A few weeks ago I was offered a position that involved laying out boards in 2 and 4 layers with Altium, firmware coding in C and C++, along with setting up in house product development facilities, and doing some occasional CAD work and maintaining their logistics software, because they want to begin doing more things on site and use fewer contract engineering services in order to "provide more value to their clients".

The salary offered was 40k/yr before taxes and not negotiable, no healthcare and no benefits.  Translation: "we need engineers but we don't want to pay for them"  For that level of responsibility and accountability it was a non-starter and I would need substantially more than what they were offering. I was outta that interview so fast you could feel the breeze I left in my wake. The only person that would MAYBE take that job is an EIT fresh out of school looking to beef up their resume.

I don't understand how companies can in one breath say they're having a hard time finding quality employees while refusing to pay them even a fraction of what they're worth. Of course they're going to get bottom of the barrel talent. It's madness!

The electronics engineers' demand/supply paradigm:

A glut of engineers --> Pay rates are too low considering the expertise and skills required.
A big shortage of engineers --> Development and manufacturing goes offshore.
A small shortage of engineers --> Good pay for skilled engineers.

The engineers here are paid based upon demand and supply. Even so, engineers should ensure they don't get ripped off. Those who pay crap wages deserve to get crap engineers.

 

[Galenbo]

A good engineer should earn more than a bad manager. A brilliant engineer should start his own company.

should, yes, but it's a rat race. The best salesman doesn't get to the top, it's the one that's best in keeping the others down.
Not every brilliant engineer is fitted to do a startup, do the legal paperwork, engage people, sign contracts, search customers,... so ready to become a manager.
It would often be a waste, too.

[Kjelt]

A good engineer should earn more than a bad manager. A brilliant engineer should start his own company.

should, yes, but it's a rat race. The best salesman doesn't get to the top, it's the one that's best in keeping the others down.
Not every brilliant engineer is fitted to do a startup, do the legal paperwork, engage people, sign contracts, search customers,... so ready to become a manager.
It would often be a waste, too.

true, IMO the best startups I have seen in the past were a combination of two or three persons with complementary skills, an engineer combined with a good well connected marketeer that has access to the money sources and markets. Good example from the past is Apple.

[Timmay]

One example was installing rivnuts on an aircraft to attach a windscreen with built in wire strike for safety. The company supplied us with a hand installer that took about 9 minutes a rinvut. To me, this sucked when it comes to installing 96 per aircraft. So I purchased a hydraulic installer tool and cut a job into a tenth of the time it normally took. The tool cost money

Seems odd that an industry as regulated as aviation would permit the use of employee-owned tools outside of their QC & calibration systems. If someone used their own, incorrect/faulty/out of spec tool for a job and damage was caused, there could be some interesting legal ramifications.

With calibrated tools, we can use company calibration services but keep in mind most regular use tools are not calibrated, like 95 percent of tools used in aviation work are not. So as the quoted example above, the tool to install rivnuts is never calibrated, the final install of the rivnuts are inspected to meet quality assurance requirements. In aviation quality control is a continual process conducted during and after particular critical steps are made. If the tools themselves aren't up to the task, it will be caught before the aircraft is flown. For example if I installed a part, a total of maybe 4 eyes might inspect that install and the surrounding area before the aircraft is even put back on a flight line.

[Timmay]

One example was installing rivnuts on an aircraft to attach a windscreen with built in wire strike for safety. The company supplied us with a hand installer that took about 9 minutes a rinvut. To me, this sucked when it comes to installing 96 per aircraft. So I purchased a hydraulic installer tool and cut a job into a tenth of the time it normally took. The tool cost money

Seems odd that an industry as regulated as aviation would permit the use of employee-owned tools outside of their QC & calibration systems. If someone used their own, incorrect/faulty/out of spec tool for a job and damage was caused, there could be some interesting legal ramifications.

+1 to this.  When I was doing aerospace machining, even the pocket scales got calibrated, and a serialized sticker on the back.   I'd expect a hydraulic tool to need calibration with some sort of go/nogo gauge.

The tool itself won't be calibrated, as in the case of a hydraulic crimper. What would be used is a tool that looks sort of like a half moon with a recessed end that sits on the tube and an extended collar about 1" in length that checks the crimp. That would be calibrated (the go-no-go gauge). So the tool isn't calibrated, the gauge that checks the final product is.

[Timmay]

One example was installing rivnuts on an aircraft to attach a windscreen with built in wire strike for safety. The company supplied us with a hand installer that took about 9 minutes a rinvut. To me, this sucked when it comes to installing 96 per aircraft. So I purchased a hydraulic installer tool and cut a job into a tenth of the time it normally took. The tool cost money

Seems odd that an industry as regulated as aviation would permit the use of employee-owned tools outside of their QC & calibration systems. If someone used their own, incorrect/faulty/out of spec tool for a job and damage was caused, there could be some interesting legal ramifications.

+1 to this.  When I was doing aerospace machining, even the pocket scales got calibrated, and a serialized sticker on the back.   I'd expect a hydraulic tool to need calibration with some sort of go/nogo gauge.

Very definitely!

In a famous example of an improperly installed window, the pilot was sucked through the window and was only saved by cabin crew holding onto his legs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_5390

A relative, who works for a large aerospace corporation told me of an extremely concientious worker that once filled out some paperwork in the wrong order. No damage was (or could have been) done, but he was still sacked with prejudice.

Again, most people are assuming all tools used are calibrated when in fact they are not. However, there are tools used to inspect the end results either used by the team doing the repair/mods or the QA inspecting all the work as my above example states.

[Kjelt]

. For example if I installed a part, a total of maybe 4 eyes might inspect that install and the surrounding area before the aircraft is even put back on a flight line.

But if the tool is not calibrated and the spec says to use 120Nm torque to a bolt, how are four or even hundred pair of eyes going to see if that bolt had 100Nm or even 200Nm torque applied? And that can well be the difference between a bolt coming loose mid air or a bolt snapping under pressure due to metal fatigue ?

[SeanB]

Torque wrench is not calibrated, but the setting is verified against a torque wrench checking and setting unit, firmly bolted to a bench near the aircraft. You do not rely on the setting of the wrench, but set it and then use the checker to get the setting correct. Then you do the nuts/bolts/pins/whatever, then go back to the checker and verify the setting has not changed. The tool is not calibrated, but the device used to set the torque IS, and that is the important part. A torque wrench is only going to be approximate in any instance, you do not really worry about absolute measures on it, just that is is repeatable and does not have short term drift in use.

[Timmay]

. For example if I installed a part, a total of maybe 4 eyes might inspect that install and the surrounding area before the aircraft is even put back on a flight line.

But if the tool is not calibrated and the spec says to use 120Nm torque to a bolt, how are four or even hundred pair of eyes going to see if that bolt had 100Nm or even 200Nm torque applied? And that can well be the difference between a bolt coming loose mid air or a bolt snapping under pressure due to metal fatigue ?

The problem with all the replies to my posts is that everyone thought of a particular tool that would maybe require a calibration and then assumed those were the tools I was talking about. A DMC wire crimper does not have a calibration, a go-no-go gauge does, a hydraulic swage tool used to crimp fittings on hydraulic lines is not calibrated, the go-no-go is. A solder station temp setting is loosely calibrated but the final solder job is inspected for a cold joint, etc. A 22 MM wrench is not calibrated but the bolt/washer stack is as well as the thread protrusion. Safety wire pliers are not calibrated but the safety wire tension, twist count, install and pigtail are.

As for your tool that you listed (torque wrench) it is calibrated, every 6 months (more or less depending on the tools use and company policy) or if the following holds true : missing calibration sticker regardless if the books show the expiration date, the void sticker on the adjustment (fill in whatever style adjuster your tq wrench has) or if the tq wrench was dropped. So, going along with your selected tool. If I decided to buy my own, I can send it in to the companies calibration service and if it meets the requirements it will get serialized, tagged, logged and sent back for my use. But irons, crimping tools, cutters, strippers, wrenches, specialty tools etc are not. Most tools used on aircraft do not require a calibration. In fact, even for a basic clamp holding a wire bundle there is a recommended torque for the attaching hardware (guidelines for all hardware anyways) but if its not critical, as in the aircraft's safety is at risk its not really checked. I have been a worker, manager, engineer prototype assistant, mod team members and rework team member as well as being a CDI (collateral duty inspector) and QAR (Quality Assurance Representative). So you can trust what I say or never fly again