BYD (Burn Your Driveway) Vehicles track you, and what you say....

[Analog Kid]

Sorry, the idea that the Chinese gov't. would take action against any foreigner (non-Chinese) saying "Fuck China!" or anything else derogatory in one of these cars sounds quite absurd to me. Possible, I suppose, but certainly not likely.

Now for Chinese citizens, that's a whole 'nother story. But really, the idea that they're going to punish someone in Yurp, or the US, or anywhere else for insulting their country? To me, that's a stretch.

For one thing, just imagine the logistics: it would require a vast surveillance network to even accomplish this. People (maybe not so many here on this forum but among the general public) have this Hollywood-tinted idea that this could be done in some automated fashion, using advanced voice recognition and AI. But at some point some poor human is going to have to sift through all the incoming reports, throw out false positives, massage the data. I don't think even China in its maximum-paranoia mode would be willing to spend what it would take to cast the net that widely.

I could be wrong about this, of course, but that's my belief at the moment.

[Andy Chee]

Sorry, the idea that the Chinese gov't. would take action against any foreigner (non-Chinese) saying "Fuck China!" or anything else derogatory in one of these cars sounds quite absurd to me. Possible, I suppose, but certainly not likely.

The action wouldn't be overt.

I would imagine it be something like intentionally "software bricking/locking" the car, and flashing a dashboard message that it needs service inspection by the dealer.

The dealer then resets the car's firmware, and has a chat to the driver about how great China is.

Anyway that's my conspiracy theory....

[Analog Kid]

^^^^^ Sorry, doesn't sound all that plausible to me.
I'd think the Chinese have much bigger fish to fry than making life "interesting" for one of their critics like that.
But who knows?

[Andy Chee]

Well if the driver was just a random you or me, then I would agree, not plausible.

But what if the driver was head of national security? Or CEO of a major semiconductor company?

Sure, they probably wouldn't be driving a BYD in the first place. 

But that's the whole topic of this thread.... they should never be driven in Chinese vehicles for this very reason of spying!

[Analog Kid]

Well if the driver was just a random you or me, then I would agree, not plausible.

But what if the driver was head of national security? Or CEO of a major semiconductor company?

Sure, that I'd buy.
That would fall under the heading of targeted espionage.

[Zoli]

Well if the driver was just a random you or me, then I would agree, not plausible.

But what if the driver was head of national security? Or CEO of a major semiconductor company?

Sure, that I'd buy.
That would fall under the heading of targeted espionage.

Fun fact:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a62694325/ford-ceo-jim-farley-daily-drives-xiaomi-su7/

[SiliconWizard]

The Xiaomi SU7 seems pretty cool to be fair.

[PlainName]

But at some point some poor human is going to have to sift through all the incoming reports, throw out false positives, massage the data.

Why? The few that get caught in the (automated) dragnet are just collateral. No-one involved will give a toss about them. (And if they haven't explicitly dissed the surveilling state in the car, they no doubt think it anyway.)

[AVGresponding]

Sorry, the idea that the Chinese gov't. would take action against any foreigner (non-Chinese) saying "Fuck China!" or anything else derogatory in one of these cars sounds quite absurd to me. Possible, I suppose, but certainly not likely.

Now for Chinese citizens, that's a whole 'nother story. But really, the idea that they're going to punish someone in Yurp, or the US, or anywhere else for insulting their country? To me, that's a stretch.

For one thing, just imagine the logistics: it would require a vast surveillance network to even accomplish this. People (maybe not so many here on this forum but among the general public) have this Hollywood-tinted idea that this could be done in some automated fashion, using advanced voice recognition and AI. But at some point some poor human is going to have to sift through all the incoming reports, throw out false positives, massage the data. I don't think even China in its maximum-paranoia mode would be willing to spend what it would take to cast the net that widely.

I could be wrong about this, of course, but that's my belief at the moment.

It's well known, and well documanted, that the Chinese government harasses "Free Tibet" members/activists of many nationalities.

[Halcyon]

Sorry, the idea that the Chinese gov't. would take action against any foreigner (non-Chinese) saying "Fuck China!" or anything else derogatory in one of these cars sounds quite absurd to me. Possible, I suppose, but certainly not likely.

Now for Chinese citizens, that's a whole 'nother story. But really, the idea that they're going to punish someone in Yurp, or the US, or anywhere else for insulting their country? To me, that's a stretch.

For one thing, just imagine the logistics: it would require a vast surveillance network to even accomplish this. People (maybe not so many here on this forum but among the general public) have this Hollywood-tinted idea that this could be done in some automated fashion, using advanced voice recognition and AI. But at some point some poor human is going to have to sift through all the incoming reports, throw out false positives, massage the data. I don't think even China in its maximum-paranoia mode would be willing to spend what it would take to cast the net that widely.

I could be wrong about this, of course, but that's my belief at the moment.

China has a vast surveillance network already. Both within China and beyond.

Think of it this way, China collects information about you and determines you're a threat. For example, an Australian who expresses that Taiwan is an independent nation. You then travel to China, what could happen? Maybe nothing, or perhaps they use that as justification to seize and examine your electronic devices. Perhaps you're followed around so they can keep a close eye on you? Maybe worse?

They have already attempted to harass and control Chinese people overseas, through illegal "police stations" and whatnot. If they don't comply, they go and harass and in some cases, imprison their family members back in China until they return to "face their crimes". It's not so far fetched that they try that kind of crap on others once you step foot into their country.

As you say, it is quite absurd to you and I, but it's the kind of crap they try to pull all the time. China is a classic case of a creepy stalker or ex-partner who gaslights everyone else into thinking they are the problem. The CCP sees themselves as being the victim, not the aggressor. They try every tactic under the sun, including attempting to pull the race card when governments ban their crappy telecommunications infrastructure.

[Zero999]

You need to pay attention to the reputable news reports about what Trump has repeatedly said he will do to his opponents (political and otherwise) when he gets back in power. It is quite scary.

If you want URLs, I'll dig them out - but that could reasonably be regarded as "politics".

Not really, given he said similar things last time. Remember he went on about jailing Hilary Clinton. Never happened. He's full of hot air.

Let's hope so.

The difference is that then he and his acolytes didn't know how to operate in Washington. Now he has much more knowledgeable, canny and powerful acolytes, has pre-stuffed the legal system with sympathetic drones  - and he controls all branches of the government.

I'm pretty optimistic about the upcoming administration. The fact it's upset so many people and the mainstream media have been continuously complaining about it is a good thing.

Destruction is easy; even thick criminal vandals can do it.

Construction is difficult.

Point to keep in mind: more important than what is being done is to whom and for whom it is being done. Look at nationalist leaders' friends to predict the latter. If you aren't one of those, you are one of the former (e.g. everybody on this forum).

Populists' principal strategy is to persuade people not to think that way, but to focus on a very different Them vs Us until it is too late. Works all over the world.

Yes. That's exactly why I'm optimistic.

[BBBbbb]

As you say, it is quite absurd to you and I, but it's the kind of crap they try to pull all the time. China is a classic case of a creepy stalker or ex-partner who gaslights everyone else into thinking they are the problem. The CCP sees themselves as being the victim, not the aggressor. They try every tactic under the sun, including attempting to pull the race card when governments ban their crappy telecommunications infrastructure.

First - I wouldn't call their telco infra crappy. The reason why Huawei stuff was spreading like wildfire in telco infra around the world (including UK, EU,...) was because it was superior and cheaper. Two friends working for 2 different ISPs in to different EU countries both said the same - well documented and superior support to anything they had before.
Of course it probably had backdoors, but so did the US vetted one.

And there we come to the real problem. Both big superpowers are known for doing the things you described above! And you cannot exclude others if given the opportunity behaving the same, this is why making this a China problem is a shortsighted issue. These uncontrolled telematics have to be heavily regulated and need to provide clear (and defaulted to) opt out.

[madires]

FYI, Huawei started with copying network devices from well known vendors 1:1 and selling them cheaper than the original ones. For example, they have tried to sell 1:1 copies of Cisco routers to a former employer.

[BBBbbb]

FYI, Huawei started with copying network devices from well known vendors 1:1 and selling them cheaper than the original ones. For example, they have tried to sell 1:1 copies of Cisco routers to a former employer.

Like many CN companies they started with copying until they built up knowledge to innovate.
Today they have highest number of 5G related patents.
Hard to blame anyone else but the western companies who rushed to shift manufacturing there in order to cut costs and gain access to their market, knowing very well Chinese approach to intellectual property.

[Halcyon]

As you say, it is quite absurd to you and I, but it's the kind of crap they try to pull all the time. China is a classic case of a creepy stalker or ex-partner who gaslights everyone else into thinking they are the problem. The CCP sees themselves as being the victim, not the aggressor. They try every tactic under the sun, including attempting to pull the race card when governments ban their crappy telecommunications infrastructure.

First - I wouldn't call their telco infra crappy. The reason why Huawei stuff was spreading like wildfire in telco infra around the world (including UK, EU,...) was because it was superior and cheaper. Two friends working for 2 different ISPs in to different EU countries both said the same - well documented and superior support to anything they had before.
Of course it probably had backdoors, but so did the US vetted one.

I would absolutely call it crappy. Huawei aren't exactly known for manufacturing high quality stuff, but they sure know how to rip off designs from others. Sure, it's OK in terms of quality, but the vulnerabilities and ability to turn them into security risks is a pretty big problem. There are reasons why its cheaper.

I definitely wouldn't be comparing Huawei with a company like Ericsson. Apples and oranges.

[Andy Chee]

As you say, it is quite absurd to you and I, but it's the kind of crap they try to pull all the time. China is a classic case of a creepy stalker or ex-partner who gaslights everyone else into thinking they are the problem. The CCP sees themselves as being the victim, not the aggressor. They try every tactic under the sun, including attempting to pull the race card when governments ban their crappy telecommunications infrastructure.

First - I wouldn't call their telco infra crappy. The reason why Huawei stuff was spreading like wildfire in telco infra around the world (including UK, EU,...) was because it was superior and cheaper. Two friends working for 2 different ISPs in to different EU countries both said the same - well documented and superior support to anything they had before.
Of course it probably had backdoors, but so did the US vetted one.

I would absolutely call it crappy. Huawei aren't exactly known for manufacturing high quality stuff, but they sure know how to rip off designs from others. Sure, it's OK in terms of quality, but the vulnerabilities and ability to turn them into security risks is a pretty big problem. There are reasons why its cheaper.

I definitely wouldn't be comparing Huawei with a company like Ericsson. Apples and oranges.

You have to ask yourself then.... when it comes to choosing a product to purchase, why do consumers ignore "crappiness" & security, and continue to purchase cheap Huawei branded products by the thousands?  (and that's ignoring Chinese consumers, which due to massive population will skew the numbers of any product)

Put simply, security is not an important consideration in the mind of the average consumer.  It's a blindspot that China (and others) have no qualms about exploiting.

[Chicane]

This is not only an old news, but biased as well. All American and Japanese cars collect the same data, including your entire phone book, text messages, calls and everything else CarPlay and Android Auto and Bluetooth enabled head unit has access to. Driver behavior (speeding, harsh acceleration, harsh braking) is also collected and sold to insurance companies in US. European car manufacturers are far more restrictive to who they sell the data to. But GM, Stelantis (FCA), Toyota and Honda are selling it to whoever is willing to pay. GM was recently in the news for that.

[coppercone2]

none of that comes close to the clause  "insult other countries or regions, spread rumours, disrupt social order, or undermine social stability".

its the generic totally open ended door wide open to whatever a closed CCP investigative body feels like doing

its their usual. Make a list of seemingly reasonable sounding rules, then add some totally open ended generic clause. Kind of like the hong kong security law that took over HK government . There was like 1 rule in there that said "we can do whatever we want". A generic statement on 'subversion' . The definition is whatever a closed CCP organ thinks subversion might be while reviewing the information.

It sounds stupid to worry about a car. But a investigator that feels they are honest (a stickler) WILL be opposed to gross hacking/break ins/totally illegal wiretaps, but if some how through purchase agreements its justified that the car is a Chinese asset, etc... then its fair game, even for the 'honest' intelligence officials that are not in any kind of shadier position. Like he could follow his own rules. The people that do shit 'off the books' are like harder to get/manage/trust. So when they write it down, it does mean something. It actually does put you at more risk if its written down, because you agreed that the investigation is basically not part of a 'black project', at least internally in china, so more people would be willing to 'work the case'. Then suddenly their working with 'unpopular technicalities.' That is alot easier for the Chinese public to swallow. Everything takes some sort of 'marketing', and this text makes it easier. Basically they get more resources if you agree to it. I think people that don't see this have a very one dimensional unrealistic view of how a country operates intelligence work.

[PlainName]

This is not only an old news, but biased as well. All American and Japanese cars collect the same data, including your entire phone book, text messages, calls and everything else CarPlay and Android Auto and Bluetooth enabled head unit has access to. Driver behavior (speeding, harsh acceleration, harsh braking) is also collected and sold to insurance companies in US.

There's a difference in that the US companies collect it for commercial reasons (that is, to make a buck) whereas China collects it for political reasons (that is, to punish dissenters).

[tggzzz]

This is not only an old news, but biased as well. All American and Japanese cars collect the same data, including your entire phone book, text messages, calls and everything else CarPlay and Android Auto and Bluetooth enabled head unit has access to. Driver behavior (speeding, harsh acceleration, harsh braking) is also collected and sold to insurance companies in US.

There's a difference in that the US companies collect it for commercial reasons (that is, to make a buck) whereas China collects it for political reasons (that is, to punish dissenters).

In China the citizens can't change the politicians and political behaviour, whereas in the US the citizens can't change the corporations and corporate behaviour.

Compare and contrast the advantages and disadvantages of those behaviours, as seen by citizens.

[paulca]

The issue I have, especially with China (and when I say "China", I mean the CCP), is that they aren't just spying in the conventional sense, they are trying to assert their dominance and apply their internal laws to everyone else, not just their own citizens.

The issue I have, especially with the USA (and when I say "USA", I mean the CIA/ISA), is that they aren't just spying in the conventional sense, they are trying to assert their dominance and apply their internal laws to everyone else, not just their own citizens.

[PlainName]

they are trying to assert their dominance and apply their internal laws to everyone else, not just their own citizens

Yes, both sides do. Generally, the citizens of a particular state overlook what that state does internally and mostly agree with the state's stance externally. (Of course, there will be dissenters who make loud noises, but unless there is some really unignorable screwup, most citizens like to carry on without undue hassle.)

E&OE, IMO, IANAD, etc.

[BBBbbb]

This is not only an old news, but biased as well. All American and Japanese cars collect the same data, including your entire phone book, text messages, calls and everything else CarPlay and Android Auto and Bluetooth enabled head unit has access to. Driver behavior (speeding, harsh acceleration, harsh braking) is also collected and sold to insurance companies in US.

There's a difference in that the US companies collect it for commercial reasons (that is, to make a buck) whereas China collects it for political reasons (that is, to punish dissenters).

In China the citizens can't change the politicians and political behaviour, whereas in the US the citizens can't change the corporations and corporate behaviour.

Compare and contrast the advantages and disadvantages of those behaviours, as seen by citizens.

Ok, without going deeper there, lets put it like this:
There is far far more documented harm done by US to people outside the US, then there are example of China doing to people outside of China.
So with this logic, I should be more afraid of US having unchecked insight into my privacy, than China.

But all this discussion comes from a bad place - a distraction of "fear the other side", bot powers are using it to distract from their malpractices with out private data.
Do not fall into the trap - it's China that is collecting the data, thus it is bad.

No! No! No!

You are then implicitly allowing others, representing themselves as "good guys" to collect it.
Anybody collecting data that they have no business collecting is bad and needs to be fought against.

[Halcyon]

The issue I have, especially with China (and when I say "China", I mean the CCP), is that they aren't just spying in the conventional sense, they are trying to assert their dominance and apply their internal laws to everyone else, not just their own citizens.

The issue I have, especially with the USA (and when I say "USA", I mean the CIA/ISA), is that they aren't just spying in the conventional sense, they are trying to assert their dominance and apply their internal laws to everyone else, not just their own citizens.

Are they? Can you explain how?

I don't see the US opening up illegal police stations in China.
I don't see the US harassing it's own citizens whilst abroad, telling them "If you don't like Trump, you're in the shit".
I don't see the US handing out rewards for people who report anti-Trump individuals to police.

The US is far from a model Government, and some of the shit they do is crazy. But it's not this crazy. The US couldn't care less about me, even if I drove a BYD/Chevy/Whatever.

[RJSV]

  That's either NAIVE, or deliberately (*********** comments hidden, so as not to be too personal, as EEVBLOG Forum guidelines).

   The majority of 'spying' (Zuckerberg) is anti-trump,  pro woke,  pro DEMs.   Now let's not play games, with modifying 'history', in current terms.
Yeah yeah,  all politicians are the SAME...
Blah blah blah:  revisionist garbage.

   Are you a democrat activist, here ?
(Making my hand shake,  lol)