Author Topic: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!  (Read 7243 times)

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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #150 on: October 17, 2019, 08:23:34 pm »
There is another practical reason why California's high speed rail project doesn't terminate in its richest, highest populated cities.  Where do you think the highest development costs are?  When a quarter acre house plot pushes a million dollars.
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #151 on: October 17, 2019, 08:28:01 pm »
I have to be amused about your characterization of California cities that are of no consequence

The cities where a high-speed rail might make the most impact are San Jose, San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego, and Sacramento.  The current HS rail plan runs between Bakersfield and Merced.  This is not a good use of our tax dollars.

Fresno is between those two points. 5th largest city in California.
Gotta start somewhere. I'm guessing that was a stretch that had minimal eminent domain fights for land. And you need that stretch to exist anyway if you're going to connect San Francisco with Los Angeles.

Whether we really need HIGH SPEED rail between all these points is a good question. Current light rail options are already pretty good between San Diego and Los Angeles. The San Diego Trolley connects to the LA Metro system in Oceanside, with many trips a day. There's also AMTRAK, but their schedule requires planning ahead. AMTRAK also serves the northern cities. As do airports.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #152 on: October 17, 2019, 08:42:29 pm »
I read once, but I cannot find the source now, that the rationale for California's high speed rail project was to assist with development of the state's vast interior. California's coastal cities already are, as they stand now, some of the world's most developed urban places in the world.

It's complicated!  If a high tech company moved to the Central Valley, do they really think people would follow?  To a one-horse town?  The semiconductor business had this problem when they moved to Albuquerque (and even Austin) back in the '70s.  There was no infrastructure.  Nobody in the area knew the business, there were no trained employees, most current employees would rather go to the company across the street than relocate to a town with just one high tech employer and so on.

The companies would have to import talent from Silicon Valley!  There is one specific reason why Silicon Valley is where it is and that is Stanford.  The number of highly placed people in the tech world that are graduates of Stanford is staggering.

Yes, it would be cheaper to live in the Central Valley but, even in Stockton, the median home price is over $300k and there are a lot of low price, low rent houses pulling the median down.  A decent house, in a nice neighborhood, is likely to cost somewhere in the high $300s.  Move to a really nice neighborhood and you're looking at mid $600s and up.  And there isn't any high tech anywhere nearby.  That's just the result of being a bedroom community.  Those prices hold true for Modesto, Ceres and Sacramento.

There have been some abortive attempts to move high tech to Sacramento and it has been modestly successful but they aren't the bleeding edge companies.

Here's another problem:  Locational Diversity.  Companies are forced by their insurance companies to move operations outside of California.  That isn't specific to California but the earthquakes really are a factor.  I don't think anybody in the semiconductor business really wanted to move to Albuquerque or Austin but they had to build somewhere.  Loveland, CO was popular as is Colorado Springs.

Moving to the Central Valley doesn't provide locational diversity.

Kaiser Permanente (a gigantic HMO) has a huge hospital in Modesto but they have problems attracting enough qualified doctors and nurses.  Who would want to work in Modesto if they could get the same job in San Francisco where Kaiser has another large facility.  Sure, the cost of living will be cheaper in the Central Valley but likely the pay scale is as well.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #153 on: October 17, 2019, 08:52:33 pm »
Do they really think people are going to do a daily commute from Los Angeles to Sacramento?  What is the reason for making the trip?  Why would anybody take the train?  I could see it if they ran the train up to the Emerald Triangle and folks could shop for quality marijuana.

It has never been explained to me who exactly would make that commute and why.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #154 on: October 17, 2019, 09:04:17 pm »
In Spain the two principal lines are used mainly by public employees politicians and MPs travelling back and forth from Madrid to the provinces where they come from in bussiness class on a daily basis. Oh, and a retinue of subordinates.
Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken.
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #155 on: October 17, 2019, 09:05:39 pm »
I wrote: "....California's coastal cities already are, as they stand now, some of the world's most developed urban places in the world.:palm:

I just noticed the horrible redundancy in this phrase.
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #156 on: October 17, 2019, 09:06:01 pm »
If I need to go north I'll either catch a plane or drive myself. Even if a rail project existed which didn't take hours. Last time I did Burbank to Sacramento it was about an hour. As far as I remember the rail option wasn't projected to beat it on price or time.
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #157 on: October 17, 2019, 09:07:23 pm »
I wrote: "....California's coastal cities already are, as they stand now, some of the world's most developed urban places in the world.:palm:

I just noticed the horrible redundancy in this phrase.

I think you were clarifying they weren't on the moon or elsewhere. Those would still belong to the world without being here.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #158 on: October 18, 2019, 02:15:01 am »
Blanco Lirio update, still stuff not over!


Californian residents in anger blasted PG&E workers company trucks with bullets!
https://www.technocracy.news/california-sinks-into-third-world-status-as-pge-cuts-power-to-millions/
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 03:30:00 am by MT »
 

Online dmills

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #159 on: October 18, 2019, 08:44:38 pm »
Yep because nothing gets things fixed faster then shooting at the guys doing the fixing!
Could be worse, they could be trying to do a full up black start!

Regards, Dan.

 

Online Gyro

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #160 on: October 25, 2019, 07:56:30 pm »
It looks as if PG&E are in the firing line again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50172228
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 

Online Gregg

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #161 on: October 25, 2019, 08:22:25 pm »
I just received a call from a Darwin Award Candidate who is located in one of the PG&E power off areas.  I’m sure most of the members of this forum know people like this; the ones that know dangerously little, think they know a lot, but call for advice anyway only to argue over the advice and then do what they damn well please anyway. 
This person wanted to know if it would be OK to turn off the main 230V 100 amp main breaker and then back feed an outlet with a suicide cord.  After telling him “don’t do it” and giving a number of reasons why; I had to end the conversation by telling him that I gave him the advice he asked for and no amount of arguing was going to change my mind, goodbye! 
 

Offline richard.cs

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #162 on: October 25, 2019, 11:11:34 pm »
Clearly asking for advice and then arguing is a dick move, but I don't personally consider that especially dangerous in an appropriate, controlled situation. i.e. no children present, everyone else knows what not to touch, careful sequencing, cables secure against tugging, etc. After all life is about balancing risks, and candles / darkness / moudly food all have non-zero risks.
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #163 on: October 25, 2019, 11:34:28 pm »
I've done the "Kill the main breaker and backfeed the 220V electric drier outlet with a Honda generator and a suicide cord" thing, and managed to not kill anybody.  We lived out in the woods, the utility power had a habit of going dead and not being restored for a week, and I was too poor to have a legal transfer switch.  But of course I'm a trained professional... So kids, don't try this at home.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #164 on: October 26, 2019, 01:06:51 am »
Probably not US legal, but here in commie Europe 300 Euros gets you a Kohler SDMO MTS which can break 100A from mains and is suited for a 40A generator ... and here in the Netherlands you could even install it yourself legally AFAIK.
 

Offline orion242

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #165 on: October 26, 2019, 02:14:23 am »
It looks as if PG&E are in the firing line again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50172228

PG&E has shutdowns and another utility.  One of the current fires PG&E claims a HV transmission faulted in the area the fire started.  They are done if that's the case.  CA will own the $hitshow they created.

Outside of the extreme fire hazard conditions, its the same story across the US in highly populated areas.  CA just happens to have areas that are prime for fires and they plant housing developments in the middle of them because housing can't meet demand.  Politicians can't say no and insurance companies can blame anyone but themselves.  Self fulfilling prophecy IMO.

Maybe living without power in CA will bring the housing demand back in check.

If KWH costs are 4X norm and the power is flaky at best...how does an all EV future come to be in CA exactly??
« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 02:19:31 am by orion242 »
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #166 on: October 26, 2019, 02:36:37 am »
Quote
If KWH costs are 4X norm and the power is flaky at best...how does an all EV future come to be in CA exactly?

You only have to sell the cars, not keep them running anythime the driver wants to go somewhere.
In parts of CA, there isn't enough water, there isnt't enough electricity, there is too much traffic already but and real estate people complain  about "not enough inventory".
 In the meantime they keep building new "homes".. surrounded by dry brush.... then fires start and the cycle start all over again..
It all makes sense if you are going through an acute schizophrenic episode ....
meanwhile somoeone is making mega bucks out of all this... maybe I'm just jealous
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #167 on: October 26, 2019, 01:07:25 pm »

Is it so hard to bury power cables underground?  At least in new neighbourhoods / towns / subdivisions...
 

Offline orion242

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #168 on: October 26, 2019, 01:23:26 pm »
Only prevents fires from the lines, would still take a decade to complete.

Lighting, arson, camp fires, cigarette tossed out the window.

Build in a natural fire pit, its going to burn.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #169 on: October 26, 2019, 01:48:12 pm »
Keeping a couple 100 meters clear around a village is only going to be a tiny percentage of a municipal budget. Housing pressure is not what pushes people to live right up to forests which historically burned at decade range intervals.

California forests by and large have never been wet enough to live among the trees safely. The results of doing it anyway have been obvious for decades, but because of global warming we can't just observe that anymore. Fire breaks aren't just not implemented, it's fundamentally impossible for them to even be a solution because it doesn't solve global warming. There is no alternative to just throwing our hands up, cut the power and pray as long as there is global warming, it's unpossible to do anything else.

Embers falling among a forest with heavy dessicated debree is obviously the same as them falling in an urban environment, because global warming. Fighting house fires right next to a forest fire is obviously the same as doing it next to a huge fire break separating you from the forest fire, because global warming. Global warming is the cause of all problems, fighting global warming the only solution. There Is No Alternative.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 02:13:58 pm by Marco »
 

Offline MT

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #170 on: October 26, 2019, 03:10:42 pm »
Probably not US legal, but here in commie Europe 300 Euros gets you a Kohler SDMO MTS which can break 100A from mains and is suited for a 40A generator ... and here in the Netherlands you could even install it yourself legally AFAIK.

Yep, here in identity gender correct commie Europe we dont give a hoot about the liberal globalists GRETA commie laws and do as we please by installing a Kohler SDMO MTS as the police on the urban country side have been absent for 10+ years. Every second year they quickly driveby not waving their hands , not stopping to chat with the local village jungle monkeys, not stopping the drunk 70+ year old local moped driver on his way to shop a bucket of milk in the now soon to close down 10m3 big supermarket! :)


Keeping a couple 100 meters clear around a village is only going to be a tiny percentage of a municipal budget. Housing pressure is not what pushes people to live right up to forests which historically burned at decade range intervals.

California forests by and large have never been wet enough to live among the trees safely. The results of doing it anyway have been obvious for decades, but because of global warming we can't just observe that anymore. Fire breaks aren't just not implemented, it's fundamentally impossible for them to even be a solution because it doesn't solve global warming. There is no alternative to just throwing our hands up, cut the power and pray as long as there is global warming, it's unpossible to do anything else.

Embers falling among a forest with heavy dessicated debree is obviously the same as them falling in an urban environment, because global warming. Fighting house fires right next to a forest fire is obviously the same as doing it next to a huge fire break separating you from the forest fire, because global warming. Global warming is the cause of all problems, fighting global warming the only solution. There Is No Alternative.

You mean the communist liberal globalists "man made" global warming of course?
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #171 on: October 26, 2019, 04:19:18 pm »
Thank you for making my point. I never disputed global warming, I merely treated it as almost irrelevant to the problem at hand and entirel irrelevant to solutions. That makes it a supposed alt-right dog whistle.

Throwing your hands in the air turning off power and treating urban destruction in every burning season as punishment from the global warming God for our sins is science. Everything else is anti-science and alt-right.

When everything must be seen from the lens of global warming perspective is lost. In this specific case it's best to just completely ignore it. Compared to the changes in forest composition from firefighting and lack of firesetting, water distribution and urban development on the forest edge it's close to irrelevant. There is no historically stable situation being disturbed by global warming ... it was unstable from the start.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 04:59:35 pm by Marco »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #172 on: October 26, 2019, 05:29:30 pm »

Is it so hard to bury power cables underground?  At least in new neighbourhoods / towns / subdivisions...

That's "Medium Voltage" and "Low Voltage" in utility terms and it is already standard practice for densely populated developments.  Even the transformers are underground.  Somewhere...  I never did find the one serving our other house.

OTOH, in less densely populated areas and older areas like where I live now, we have pole mounted transformers served from some "Medium Voltage" (maybe 12 kV, maybe less, I didn't ask) and we have trees.  Lots and lots of trees and the lines go right through the branches.  That's why the utility company has been trimming trees in the neighborhood.  We're not in any danger, it's not a forest but still, we had 3 outages last year caused by shorting lines in the neighbor's trees across the street.  The utility finally got tired of replacing fuses so they came along and cut the trees.

The problem with pole mount transformers is that there is a limit to how far the secondary voltage can run without excessive voltage drop.  Maybe a couple of hundred feet.  At our house, the secondary is underground, only the primary is on poles.

The problems seem primarily related to "Transmission Level" towers.  Voltages at 69 kV and above - probably up around 230 kV to 500 kV.  These towers are relatively far apart, the cables tend to flap around in high wind and, as a function of load, the cables sag.  It doesn't help that people shoot at the insulators.

Northern California is scheduled for more shutdowns today.  Apparently it is primarily the "Medium Voltage" lines because the transmission lines are going to stay energized.  They serve too many customers that aren't involved with forests.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Everybody missed the point!  These outages were only tangentially related to preventing fires and saving lives.  What they really were was pressure on the Legislature to come up with a $21 BILLION dollar compensation fund to protect the utilities.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-wildfire-legislation/california-governor-signs-bill-for-21-billion-wildfire-fund-idUSKCN1U72LI

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's nothing like getting the press all riled up over shutdowns affecting a million customers to get the Governor to do anything you want.  This has been a taxpayer scam from the beginning. How else could they get the flatlanders to pay for fires in the hills?

Pay attention!

« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 05:43:44 pm by rstofer »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #173 on: October 26, 2019, 06:33:00 pm »

[...] This has been a taxpayer scam from the beginning. [...]


Who, other than the taxpayers, should be footing the bill for building modern housing estates with safe utilities, managed forests, firebreaks, and the rest of it?

It looks like nobody has wanted to pay for developing and implementing an overall sensible approach to what looks like a fairly predictable problem?
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!
« Reply #174 on: October 26, 2019, 06:40:04 pm »
Regarding undergrounding and clearing, take a look at this video of the current "Kincade" fire in northern California.  The terrain is forested and steep, and undergrounding is damn near impossible.  100 meter clearings?  The sparks from these wind-driven fires can travel much farther than that.  Some flying embers from the Kincade fire traveled over one mile before landing, where they ignited and burned down a house.

Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=78&v=ZNEDHydWx-E

 


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