Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!

[MT]

What a fiasco! But heey Calif are run by socialist gov so what to expect!

[Mr. Scram]

Videos without a summary of a few lines does not make for a good thread start.

[MT]

Why is there need for a summary? Its ongoing event since Wednesday! Instead of complain make a summary your self if you need one!

[soldar]

What a fiasco! But heey Calif are run by socialist gov so what to expect!

I always expect a stupid comment and I am seldomly disappointed.

Maybe yoiu can tell us more about the California Socialist Government?

[Mr. Scram]

Why is there need for a summary? Its ongoing event since Wednesday! Instead of complain make a summary your self if you need one!

Because people don't want to watch a 17 minute video to see whether they're interested in it in the first place. You already watched it so it's trivial to summarise the gist of it. Not only that but you're obviously also interested in starting a discussion about it and the best way of getting people on board is providing a good incentive. I can't exactly summarise the video because I haven't watched it because I'm not about to waste 17 minutes on some video that may be good or may be total trash. Good thread starts lead to good discussions.

[rstofer]

It's either shut down the power or risk burning the state to the ground during these high wind events.  We tried burning it down last year and made pretty good progress.

California has a problem with cutting down trees - even when they know that the forests need to be thinned and control-burned.  Tree huggers just don't care how big the fires are just as long as their is enough money for the claims against PG&E.

PG&E isn't blameless in this but at least they are smart enough to not cause another raging inferno.  PG&E could have tried harder to clear the trees.  They are doing it now!  We have had tree services in our neighborhood for the past two weeks.  Every trimming company in the state has full time work right now.

The idea that we are "out of electricity" is nonsense!  As to getting gasoline, the residents just have to drive a bit farther if they wait until the outage is in effect before deciding they need fuel.

Hint:  I have no problem with the shutdowns.  They are targeted and of short duration (relatively).  If it saves a town and a lot of residents, it seems like a good idea to me.

Caveat:  At the moment, I am not affected by the outages.  I suppose that could change.  We had a few short duration outages last year.  It was always the sagging lines crossing the street out in front of our house.  You could see where the wires went through the neighbor's trees.  Of course they were going to short out when the trees got wet and blown by the wind!

[maginnovision]

Are they just talking about the outages around the active fires? Honestly if you're affected you're probably supposed to be evacuated. 100000 people about 5 miles from me were evacuated but that fire is nearly under control so most of them are allowed to return and SCE here is quick to reconfigure the grid as needed.

[Marco]

I get there's a lot of powerline ... but given the economic damage I can not imagine it's not cheaper to simply have a clear cutting program around the lines.

[floobydust]

Where is this Diablo wind, I don't see it. https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/isobaric/500hPa/orthographic=-104.00,41.82,428

[IanB]

Caveat:  At the moment, I am not affected by the outages.  I suppose that could change.  We had a few short duration outages last year.  It was always the sagging lines crossing the street out in front of our house.  You could see where the wires went through the neighbor's trees.  Of course they were going to short out when the trees got wet and blown by the wind!

But electricity companies should be fined for this. They are supposed to survey their lines and cut back trees to maintain adequate clearance. There is no excuse for lack of maintenance.

[Cyberdragon]

Caveat:  At the moment, I am not affected by the outages.  I suppose that could change.  We had a few short duration outages last year.  It was always the sagging lines crossing the street out in front of our house.  You could see where the wires went through the neighbor's trees.  Of course they were going to short out when the trees got wet and blown by the wind!

But electricity companies should be fined for this. They are supposed to survey their lines and cut back trees to maintain adequate clearance. There is no excuse for lack of maintenance.

Here on the east cost they come and chop the shit out of your trees and charge you for it since you didn't (couldn't afford to) trim them yourself/hire someone.

[floobydust]

Running a critical infrastructure into the ground for profit.
There are no laws or penalties for corrupt corporate ethics in the utility industry.
google, facebook, apple - power would not get cut to their offices.

Con Edison New York is similar with many blackouts, transformer and underground cable fires, outraged politicians etc. Con Ed wants an 8.6% rate hike and it's pretty easy to use outages for blackmail to squeeze more cash out of customers.

[Marco]

risk burning the state to the ground during these high wind events.  We tried burning it down last year and made pretty good progress.

You didn't even make a dent yet ... effective fire prevention is three quarters of a century old, that's a lot of extra fuel for forest fires. It's going to burn eventually and the higher it piles up and the lower the canopy gets the faster and more widespread it burns.

I suspect putting fire breaks around all infrastructure and stopping fire prevention almost entirely is the only real solution. There's too much surplus fuel to handle mechanically, it has to burn sometime.

PS. as for the rich people who want to live among the trees, let them pay for the privilege one way or another (I'd suggest putting a very wide firebreak deeper in the forest, football field wide, or just accepting your house will burn down eventually).

[Yansi]

PS. as for the rich people who want to live among the trees, let them pay for the privilege one way or another (I'd suggest putting a very wide firebreak deeper in the forest, football field wide, or just accepting your house will burn down eventually).

Or just teach Americans to put the damn distribution wiring into the ground, like the developed central Europe does.

[soldar]

But electricity companies should be fined for this. They are supposed to survey their lines and cut back trees to maintain adequate clearance. There is no excuse for lack of maintenance.

Utilities are regulated by the State. The people demand low energy prices, NYMBY, etc. Politicians running for election promise the impossible and get elected. Raising prices would backfire immediately while keeping low prices means delayed maintenance which will come back to bite you later... when some other politician is running.

PG&E had a net loss of some billion in 2018 so there's no way they could pay for all the needed improvements. But the people of California will continue to demand the impossible and politicians will continue to promise to deliver the impossible. That's democracy in action. The people want the impossible and they want it now.

The same thing is happening with pensions and other expenses like infrastructure maintenance and modernization.

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.
-H.L. Mencken

[Marco]

Or just teach Americans to put the damn distribution wiring into the ground, like the developed central Europe does.

That won't diminish the fact they live in areas which have historically seen forest fires on decade time scales.

The forests people live next to have to become artificial forest, mechanically maintained. Isolated from the real forests, maintained by fires. Mechanical maintenance of all the forest is infeasible and stamping out every little fire before it could run its course has lead California to the current situation.

[Mr. Scram]

Forrests need to burn from time to time to prevent fatal buildup of combustible material. That's why controlled burns are being done regularly.

[NiHaoMike]

How long before residents get fed up with expensive, unreliable power and just go off grid?

That won't diminish the fact they live in areas which have historically seen forest fires on decade time scales.

The forests people live next to have to become artificial forest, mechanically maintained. Isolated from the real forests, maintained by fires. Mechanical maintenance of all the forest is infeasible and stamping out every little fire before it could run its course has lead California to the current situation.

The solution is responsible harvesting of trees in order to not allow the forest to become too dense. If we're going to cut down trees for wood and paper, why not do it where there are too many trees?

[Mr. Scram]

How long before residents get fed up with expensive, unreliable power and just go off grid?

The solution is responsible harvesting of trees in order to not allow the forest to become too dense. If we're going to cut down trees for wood and paper, why not do it where there are too many trees?

It's not just the trees themselves. It's the material they shed and that's effectively impossible to remove mechanically except on a tiny scale.

[TerraHertz]

The most amusing aspects of this:
* All the people with Teslas, no way to charge them, and 20 miles to the nearest food store.
* Everyone who installed commercial grid tied solar, thinking it would give them independent power. Now discovering that with approved design systems, no grid power = no power at all since the solar system refuses to run independently.

Not so amusing: The guy who required oxygen assist, was asleep when the power went out, and died 15 minutes later.

[wilfred]

PS. as for the rich people who want to live among the trees, let them pay for the privilege one way or another (I'd suggest putting a very wide firebreak deeper in the forest, football field wide, or just accepting your house will burn down eventually).

It isn't always rich people affected by these fires caused by powerlines. In rural areas it could be those most disadvantaged affected. Here in Victoria Australia where I am this debate flares up (sorry bad pun) from time to time as in this news report from 2013.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-28/powerline-failures-linked-to-bushfires/5050204

Different states have different policies regarding turning off power to prevent fires.

Will this give increased ratings to those doomsday prepper programs I see in the TV guide?

And in this thread there is an element of blaming the people who live in fire vulnerable areas. That reeks of blaming the victims. Which is not cool. 

[rstofer]

Where is this Diablo wind, I don't see it. https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/isobaric/500hPa/orthographic=-104.00,41.82,428

Go back a few days!  The outages are over for Northern California but the Santa Ana winds may pick up in Southern California.
https://www.sfgate.com/weather/article/PGE-power-shutdown-wind-was-it-a-strong-event-14506572.php
They weren't thinking this windstorm would be as bad as 2017 but 70 MPH is nothing to laugh at.

PG&E is at the mercy of the weather predictors.  If they overstate the windspeed, and they would rather do that than understate it, PG&E has to react.

The utility worries about the wind blowing the lines together or toppling the towers.  More likely is the winds blowing trees over or even just large branches across the wires.  I think they were predicting winds over 65 MPH.

And no, we can't underground the 500 kV lines.  At best, the technology is new and, at worst, it is 25 times as expensive.  True, once undergrounded things are a lot better but keeping high voltage in one place is no ease task.

https://www.apnews.com/5fe83d4daed64b5daa67ef5e5d81a936

The medium voltage lines could be undergrounded but these usually go to a clients neighborhood of, perhaps, 5 people.  Do you really think those customers want to pay the cost of undergrounding?  They paid the cost of getting power to their property, it wasn't free, but they certainly won't want to pay to replace what they already have.

Remember, PG&E isn't selling electricity when the customers are dark and they're in the business of selling.  They don't like the situation any more than the customers but they simply can't afford to wipe out a few more towns.

The environmentalists make it difficult to cut trees and clear undergrowth.  Controlled burns have a way of becoming uncontrolled.  And then there is arson.  Not every wildfire is PG&E's fault.

[Marco]

And in this thread there is an element of blaming the people who live in fire vulnerable areas. That reeks of blaming the victims. Which is not cool.

Power is one thing, towns going up in flames is another. Paradise which went up in flames last year was literally build right up to the forest ...

You can't even do controlled burns near anything like that, which is why prescribed fire is not a solution. It can be done cheaper than mechanical clearing, but it's still not done on the scale of wild fires or everywhere it's necessary because of politics and the chance of it going out of control.

The only really option is isolating yourself, after which letting prescribed fire or wildfire do the job becomes mostly irrelevant.

[Red Squirrel]

If I lived there I'd have an off grid solar setup given how much sun there is.  It only makes sense.  That said it's way too hot so I would not want to live there in first place.

[IanB]

And no, we can't underground the 500 kV lines.  At best, the technology is new and, at worst, it is 25 times as expensive.  True, once undergrounded things are a lot better but keeping high voltage in one place is no ease task.

The 500 kV lines aren't at any risk from adverse weather conditions. They are suspended from strong metal towers high above the ground and far away from any trees. High winds just make them swing a bit.

Where the trouble comes is the low and medium voltage distribution lines suspended lower down from wooden poles at tree height. These are the ones affected by ice and winds and snow. Every country has these in rural areas, but usually the utility company cuts back encroaching trees every year to protect them.