Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?

[sleemanj]

Some pretty interesting research results presented here by Jessica McDonald from SparkFun, definitely worth a watch if you are interested in the gender gap in STEM fields...

[donotdespisethesnake]

Hmm, I didn't actually know what a fandom was.

If it helps to give kids role models to follow, then that is a good thing. I suspect that as IT moves from industrial and engineering domains to social and consumer domains the gap will fix itself, as much as it can.

[dannyf]

Complete political BS.

First of all, I don't know why girls have to be in stem. Each of us is different and what's important end of the day is that we do things we are good at and we want to do. I am not knowledgeable enough to prove or disprove that girls naturally share a competitive advantage or desire to be in stem.

Secondly, I do think that everyone, girls or boys, should be encourage to pursue their dreams, wherever they are. I see no reason girls cannot excel in stem. I also don't know one person who sets out actively to discourage hiring of ****qualified**** girls for stem positions.

It is entirely possible and in my view likely that girls gravitated towards non-stem fields for their other priorities.

Dreaming up superficial reasons (like fandom) to attract people who otherwise wouldn't have gotten into a field is 1) attracking the wrong people; and 2) ruining a life that otherwise could have flourished in some other fields.

[helius]

http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science

Why does anyone think science is a good job?

[ivan747]

http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science

Why does anyone think science is a good job?

Nice article, describes perfectly what I have always perceived. Well maybe I'm biased 

[ivan747]

Why then, does anyone think that science is a sufficiently good career that people should debate who is privileged enough to work at it? Sample bias.

Suppose that you go to the airport trying to figure out how crowded the airplanes are. You stand by the baggage claim and ask people "How full was your flight?" You write up your conclusions: Most flights are nearly full. The sample bias here comes from the fact that full flights contain more people than empty flights. At an airport, you are much more likely to encounter someone who just stepped off a packed flight than someone who was on a plane that was only one-third full.

Holy mother of God!  I just realized that this applies to a shitload of stuff, including professor reviews and recommendations I often get from my peers. The bad professor will get lots of negative comments, the so-so professor usually has his class filled with people, even visitors from the bad guy, who don't know the third professor, who is better but only has a small class because of the schedule or whatever reason, so he gets less publicity.

[Fsck]

http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science

Why does anyone think science is a good job?

Nice article, describes perfectly what I have always perceived. Well maybe I'm biased 

I like the article too.
I always thought of science as a field for those who are interested, otherwise be a lawyer or something.

[nctnico]

Complete political BS.
First of all, I don't know why girls have to be in stem.

Dumb... as usual... 
To quote Martin Luther King: A mind is a terrible thing to waste

Regarding science: the money is in applying science which is called engineering. Fortunately more people are needed to apply science than to do scientific research.

[pickle9000]

http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science

Why does anyone think science is a good job?

Nice article, describes perfectly what I have always perceived. Well maybe I'm biased 

Nailed that one, good article.

[dannyf]

http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science

Well reasoned, probably too politically incorrect for publication.

The key here is to create equal opportunities for girls / boys to pursue their dreams, being it science, business or janitorial workers. Give them equal opportunities, let them choose and don't impose equal outcome on anyone.

[george graves]

Remember when you were a kid and you wanted to play that game, but the other kids were being dicks and so you gave up trying to fit in with them and did something else?

Not really, no.  You point went right over my head.  Care to elaborate?

[dannyf]

It's unfair and we should try to address it,

Grow up.

I know money is the only thing that motivates some people,

Speak well for yourself.

[Tallie]

If more women were interested in STEM, there'd be more women in STEM.

[dannyf]

If more women were interested in STEM, there'd be more women in STEM.

Precisely.

A bunch of no-body sitting around thinking that they had the power to order how other people should live their lives.

Couldn't have a more delusional group of people.

[corrado33]

I'm a scientific researcher. I'm currently I grad student in Physical Chemistry. I do it because I'm interested in science. I want to discover something, I want to learn the nitty-gritty about how literally EVERYTHING works. THAT'S why I'm in science. Not because it'll land me a high paying job, but because I have this innate curiosity that I want to satisfy. I could have become a doctor, I scored well enough on the MCATs, but I decided it'd be too BORING. I realize that most research (including my own) is boring, but the knowledge I gain from learning these things enables me to understand pretty much anything. That's what I want, that's why I'm here.

Anyway, I watched all of 2 minutes into that video to the point where she said "I was uncomfortable in a room full of 17 men." I think maybe that's the first thing that needs to be fixed. As a man, I am NOT uncomfortable in a room full of 17 women. Heck, I wouldn't even notice unless someone pointed it out. People are people to me. In my job, I don't judge you based on your race or sex, I judge you based on your work and how competent you are at it. And if you try to pull some sexist feminist bull crap on me you're going to be eating your words quite quickly. (I cannot STAND this generation's version of feminists. The online complainers, the "Men are evil" type of women.) I believe that men and woman SHOULD be equal in terms of how they're treated in a job (as well as most aspects of life. You can say a lot about sports and other things that should not ever be equal). This, by definition, makes me a "feminist". However, if you quote the "wage gap" in a conversation with me, it's going to make me angry. Do some unbiased research before trying to say things like that. Anyway, back on topic...

The whole argument with woman in STEM is that girls aren't interested in it because from a child they're told to play with dolls instead of legos. Play house instead of taking apart the lawnmower. Anytime someone tries to say that it's what the girls WANTS to do it's because of the evil misogynistic society telling them to do that. Well, let's look at this from a few steps back. Little girls generally want to do what their mommies do, right? I'm speaking in generalities here. In today's society, the majority of stay at home parents are still women. Therefore by the "law of statistics", most little girls are going to want to play kitchen instead of taking apart the dirty lawnmower. Notice the "most" and the absence of the "all." This behavior is instilled in children before they can even talk. My sister's 18 month old was ALREADY playing with her kitchen set, trying to do what mommy does. She couldn't even talk yet! Children emulate their parents. That's a fact. If a girls grows up and decides that she wants to be in STEM, that's fine, great even. There should be NO MORE hurdles for her than there are for men. In all honesty, I don't think there are anymore. You should compare the number of scholarships/grants given out to women only in STEM vs. white men only (yeah, you won't find any for that one.) Yeah, funding is a large hurdle that's often easier for women to cross than it is for men. (Aside: My very feminist friend/ex girlfriend and I were talking the other day about women only grants. She is actually offended that they exist. She said that she "Didn't need help." She wants to be judged on equal footing as her male competitors. She didn't want to get a job just BECAUSE she was female. HOWEVER, she said that if being a woman helped her land a great job, then sure as hell she'd exploit it. To me, that seems hypocritical, but also opportunistic, so I can't blame her.)

Sorry, rant over. I don't see the need for equal number of men and women in science(or any field). Turns out that men and women are often interested in different things. I honestly think body chemistry has a lot to do with that. I'm going to start arguing for equal number of men and women nurses(a typically female profession) in hospitals. 

EDIT: Let me be more clear. I don't know if anyone IS arguing for equal number of men and women in STEM, but that's an oft-quoted figure in these arguments. E.x. 85% of doctors are male (completely made up statistic.)

[dannyf]

I don't see the need for equal number of men and women in science(or any field).

Bingo!

The whole discussion came someone's desire to dictate others' lives. To them, we are not worthy if we don't live our lives the way they want us to live.

[sleemanj]

Anyway, I watched all of 2 minutes into that video

Maybe she should have had a male preseent her statistics, then perhaps people would have watched the whole report instead of "whargarbl feminism"ing out at 2 minutes.

[dannyf]

It has nothing to do with feminism or even sexism. She felt uncomfortable among 17 male students.

What do you think the society should do about that? Rolling out the red carpet whenever she attends classes? shutting down her male classmates? Making them disappear? Having different classes?

To me, it is an issue of her inability or even refusal to grow up. It is always easier to blame others.

[corrado33]

Anyway, I watched all of 2 minutes into that video

Maybe she should have had a male preseent her statistics, then perhaps people would have watched the whole report instead of "whargarbl feminism"ing out at 2 minutes.

Honestly, you're right, I should have watched the rest of the video. Truthfully, I only saw the length of the video after she had said that, so it was a mix of "wow this is really long" and "I don't think this video is going to provide me with any unbiased or useful information."

[tom66]

Not really, no.  You point went right over my head.  Care to elaborate?

Most people have felt excluded at some point in their lives. It's unfair and we should try to address it, not least because it will create more wealth and prosperity for all of us. I know money is the only thing that motivates some people, not abstract concepts like morality or equality.

If someone wants to learn about something or go into a particular profession there should be no artificial barriers. Candidates should be chosen on merit alone. For kids in education all should be allowed to participate and feel welcome. The fact that girls are currently not doesn't mean they are not interested.

Sorry, but no.  It is someone's choice whether or not to socialise with another person. I was placed into a "special needs" class when I was younger. Other kids were forced to socialise with me because some psych thought that I would be no good at it myself. Well, to be honest, I think it really messed me up. I never got on with the "forced friendships", and as a result I find it harder to socialise with real friends. And it turned out the diagnosis was mostly crap.

I think the same applies for the real world. You shouldn't force people into other's cliches even if it makes them feel excluded. The real world is not a padded bubble... nor should it be.

[nctnico]

The underlying problem is that some societies push people in a certain direction based on gender. That has nothing to with being better or worse at something. I don't believe women are interested in doing household stuff and men are interested in fixing cars by default.
I have worked with several excellent female software engineers (I have yet to encounter a female electronics engineer though; I have been on the lookout for over 2 decades). Anyway... AFAIK it is more common for women in Asia to enroll in computer science and in some schools a bit of coding is part of the standard educational program. Actually one of the best interns I coached was a young woman (she studied software engineering) from Indonesia.

[corrado33]

I don't believe women are interested in doing household stuff and men are interested in fixing cars by default.

No one is INTERESTED in doing household stuff! Typically men are more interested in the... gosh, I don't know how to describe it. More interested in the hands on, nitty gritty, technical stuff. Again, generalities here. If you go out in a city and ask 100 men and 100 women if they'd enjoy working on a car, I bet you'd find that more men say yes than women. (Unless you VERY specifically pick your location.)

The ARGUMENT is WHY men prefer that over women. This relates back to children emulating their parents. So unless you want to tell your 18 month old little daughter that she's not allowed to play with her kitchen toys, she's probably going going to end up doing things mommy does.

[corrado33]

So why repeat the stupid myth that the goal is 50%?

Because I think that's what most people think is the goal? I mean, go ahead and read most articles concerning the "gender gap" in STEM. The first one I clicked on in google was from forbes, quoted that 27% of computer science bachelor degrees go to women. Honestly, that's a whole heck of a lot more than I thought it'd be. If 50% is not the goal... what is? 30%? 40%? When will people stop arguing for it? At what percentage will it be considered "equal" and the discrepancy chalked up to "differing interests?"

They quoted "lack of female role models" in STEM fields. When the hell has anyone looked up at a scientist and said "I want to be that person?" Scientists generally aren't cool people. They may say "I want to DO what they do." I mean honestly, what modern role models do men have in STEM fields whose work doesn't already require basic understanding of that field to comprehend? This is a chicken or the egg problem. To be exposed to these people, you must ALREADY have a basic understanding of the field. To already HAVE the basic understanding of the field, you have to have the interest to get involved in that field. The problem lies with the interest, not barriers.

I'll give you a friendly example. Through middle and high school I was in the "gifted" program. I think there were generally ~12 of us. 4 of us were guys, the rest were girls. I know for sure that 3 of those girls already have multiple kids (we're all mid 20s.) Two of those girls went into music (something they were also gifted in). So, look at the percentages. There were plenty of chances for those girls to do exactly what I'm doing, but many of them, by their own accord, chose a different path. Heck, I think maybe 2 or 3 of us actually ended up going into higher STEM fields. So, I ask again, if interest is what's driving this "gender gap" why the hell are we arguing about it? Why are we trying to change people's innate INTERESTS? Why is 28% a BAD number?

Talking with my female friends in STEM, there are NO LONGER barriers for them. The barriers don't exist. If a girl is interested in STEM, there are no more barriers for her than there is for any white male out there. I obviously can't speak for different cultures/environments, but I'd say, in general, in at least America and the UK(the two places I'm familiar with the university system), this is the case.

Men and women are NOT equal. Physiologically and psychologically we are different. Hell, even the chemicals running inside our bodies are different. If you're (impersonal you, not you specifically) going to argue with me that men and women ARE equal in every way, then I have quite a few pictures/textbooks to show you. With all of these differences, why are we arguing that men and women should have the same interests so that our "statistics" can look more balanced. (Yes, I have had "feminists" argue with me that men and women ARE equal in EVERY way, and that women can do EVERYTHING a man can just as well, hence the inclusion of the statement here.)

[JackP]

  I don't wish to stir anything up here but I think it is about exposure (similar to what someone said about kitchen sets and female stay-at-home parents). For example, at my secondary school, boys did football, rugby and athletics in PE. Girls did netball, hockey and athletics. Guess what, I knew people from both genders that were good at athletics. Obviously, the physical composition is different, but if someone is exposed to something at a young age, it becomes more about drive; one of my friends (a girl) beat all of the boys at cross country, just as one example. At the end of the day, there are other factors that influence your decisions (inherited, environmental variation) and I know girls that now play high level football and rugby, but for the most part it is about exposure. Similar things with more academic subjects, I was not only taught to read at a young age, but I was taught to love to read. This is the one simple reason why I was one of the best writers in our year. If I did not have that exposure, then I would not have been at that level.

  Moving on to the whole career thing, who cares if a room is full of mostly men or women? OK, maybe it might make the less confident of us a bit nervous, but that is down to societal pressure IMHO. They should not affect your learning, just as a member of your own gender shouldn't. There are no barriers to women, that are not there for men (one general reason is that it isn't 'cool' to like programming, so I spent my time 'watching TV' instead of playing PS3 when I was asked). That is the only thing that needs to change, STEM subjects should be taught to a fuller extent. I have attended many STEM events and they are much for interesting than a boring science 'experiment'. Again, exposure. If people 'try' STEM subjects, they might (or might not) like them, and pursue them as a hobby/career; same with other career paths, its not just STEM subjects.

  But do not say that girls are disadvantaged. They have the same opportunities as boys, and face the same adversity. Just my two pence (english) and criticism and disagreement is welcome, so long as it is presented in the right way.

[marshallh]

Biology/mother nature itself is extremely sexist.