Author Topic: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?  (Read 117758 times)

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Offline Stonent

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #100 on: March 31, 2015, 01:47:25 pm »
Because you missed it:
...


I could go on...

That one doesn't make sense, unless her parents were both male, which I have no problems with.

I've seen some men who prefer men say some pretty horrible things about women. Stuff that most men wouldn't dare say.
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Offline corrado33

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #101 on: March 31, 2015, 04:14:03 pm »
More over, I think it would be beneficial for buys to de-construct masculinity a little. Some people will shit bricks when they hear phrases like that because they have some misconception about what it means. Think back to how the ideal woman was very clearly defined in the 50s. Housewife, looks after the children, attends to her appearance, has dinner on the table when her husband gets home. In the 60s feminists de-constructed femininity and became free to do what they wanted without conforming to that old ideal or being judged for not doing so. Women became more than just home makers (although of course that is still a valid choice, but the point is that it is a choice). Men could use the same thing now, and to some extent it has happened. Being a nurse or a stay-at-home dad is mostly fine now, but there is still a lot of macho rubbish that men feel pressure to live up to.

 :clap: I think that there is a place for the deconstruction of masculinity, but it's not necessary everywhere. What is the harm in having masculine men and feminine women? There's no need to vilify masculinity. For one, I am attracted to feminine women. (Sounds very sexist, but in all honesty, I don't want to date a girl who doesn't enjoy being girly sometimes. I've dated both types of girls, both "tom-boys" and typical "girly girls." I enjoyed dating the girly girls more. That's just who I am.) That's one reason FOR different sexes. If you ask a bunch of women out there if they'd like to date a really feminine guy, (I'm talking REALLY feminine, not just "in touch with his feminine side.") I'm sure SOME of them would say yes, but many of them would say no. These opposite traits are what attract people TO the opposite sex. Why do we need to destroy (sorry, deconstruct) them? Do some guys need to keep their ego in check? Yes. Do some women need to keep their hyper-sensitivity in check? Yes. And THAT is the important part. It goes BOTH WAYS. It's OK for a guy to be non-masculine, but it should not be BAD for him TO BE masculine.

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I find it interesting that people frame the argument this way. The guy is being a jerk, behaving badly, and so has to change. The girl isn't behaving badly, she is the one on the receiving end of negative behaviour (even if it is unintentional) but is also required to change. Wouldn't a better solution be if everyone just stop behaving in a negative way, rather than framing it as a men vs. women conflict?

Agreed, my phrasing was off. Let me try again. If a man in the situation above acts as he normally does around other men, he will probably not be liked by his female coworkers. He HAS to be more sensitive to their feelings. (Or come off AS a jerk. Not purposely acting like a jerk, but perceived as one.) Every guy (ok most guys) know this. In all honesty, this in itself IS sexist, as it stems from the 50s when men were told women are fragile creatures and we have to treat them accordingly. (But, as sexist as the original thought was... was it wrong?) Now, when a woman enters a typically male dominated field, how come she isn't expected to change the way she acts to fit in as well? Men are expected to be "softer" around women, why are women not expected to be "harder" around men?

What bothers me is that the majority of the time, the women don't think that they are part of the problem at all. They can do no wrong. But that's not true. They ARE part of the problem (part, not all.) It's OBVIOUS that, in general, women are more emotional than men, and I think that's where part of the problem lies. If you're going to talk about deconstructing masculinity, then I think we need to take a step back and deconstruct the insecurities many women have. Sure, some may come from society, but others come from OTHER WOMEN. As mentioned before, much of the ill repute for females is held by other females. There's no space for insecurity at the top of STEM fields.

This factors into evolution as well. Males have always been able to sense/see insecurities in other males or competitors since the dawn of higher thought. That's part of evolution, and it still holds true today. When a woman is insecure and a man knows it, he's either going to go into "Super helpful mode" (considered by women to be condescending), or go into "Super annoyed mode" (which then makes the woman feel even more insecure.) If the guy simply ignores the insecurity, then they're considered "not helpful at all." Have you noticed that it's not generally the very confident women that have these problems? I experience this every day. I'm either "condescending" (when I'm trying to help) or "a jerk" (when I just tell them that they're wrong.) Even my confident (ex) girlfriend tells me that the way I talk makes me come off as condescending, and I am in no way, shape, or form trying to be. I'm just simply TALKING. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, as she could never give me specifics, so I don't know how to fix it. This would come up at the weirdest times as well, very much out of the blue. Just to be clear, I'm not lying because I'm anonymous over the internet. I am telling you the 100% truth. I think this relates back to the hyper-emotional-response that many women have.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 04:20:23 pm by corrado33 »
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #102 on: March 31, 2015, 04:35:03 pm »
Don't fall for the people trying to paint it as some kind of gender war, or oppression of men. It's a problem for both genders. We need more male teachers, especially for very young children, and there are programmes and incentives in place to encourage them. It's not sexist, it's trying to fix a problem. A problem that when fixed benefits us all.

As long as there aren't unfair barriers to entry, then I don't see why it's a problem or why it needs to be fixed.

Why do we need more male teachers for young kids? 

I think men and women are different in ways that will never be normalized... I think it is an inherent aspect of being male to be a provider and a majority of women I know (in their 20's and 30's) are more concerned with family.  That's not a label I apply to them, it's what they say themselves.  As such, in the wide world of careers and options in this world, there are some that men will gravitate towards and some that women will gravitate towards.  And there's nothing wrong with that, nor does it need to be 'fixed'.
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Offline Corporate666

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #103 on: March 31, 2015, 05:05:14 pm »
http://www.cnet.com/news/ellen-pao-trial-ends-on-plea-for-gender-equality-in-the-tech-industry/


Despite Pao's stellar performance reviews, she received second class treatment. Friend who is the CFO at a significant American corporation said to me, "It is not a glass ceiling, the celling is plexiglass." Have been in the tech industry for decades, male folks have NO idea what it is like to be a woman working in a truly male dominated industry... And I'm not going to get into this now or later. What I will say, gender and age discrimination is absolutely a part and fixture of the Silly Valley tech world.


Bernice

Pao lost the case.  And a lot of data came out that imply she is a bitter and insecure person, which may be why she didn't succeed in that company.  I would submit that ignoring the facts that came out in the case and instead repeating her charges as true (despite them not holding up in court) is, ironically, evidence of gender bias.
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Offline Tallie

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #104 on: March 31, 2015, 05:21:54 pm »
http://www.cnet.com/news/ellen-pao-trial-ends-on-plea-for-gender-equality-in-the-tech-industry/


Despite Pao's stellar performance reviews, she received second class treatment. Friend who is the CFO at a significant American corporation said to me, "It is not a glass ceiling, the celling is plexiglass." Have been in the tech industry for decades, male folks have NO idea what it is like to be a woman working in a truly male dominated industry... And I'm not going to get into this now or later. What I will say, gender and age discrimination is absolutely a part and fixture of the Silly Valley tech world.


Bernice

Pao lost the case.  And a lot of data came out that imply she is a bitter and insecure person, which may be why she didn't succeed in that company.  I would submit that ignoring the facts that came out in the case and instead repeating her charges as true (despite them not holding up in court) is, ironically, evidence of gender bias.
Rupunzell couldn't have picked a worse example... read up on this woman and her husband... they are not good people.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #105 on: March 31, 2015, 06:21:36 pm »
Quote
Rupunzell couldn't have picked a worse example.

The lesson learned is about incorporating all information for a complete assessment of anything.

It is unwise to just listen to one side's case.
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Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #106 on: March 31, 2015, 06:30:31 pm »
Yet another thread were the  busybodies tell others how they should live there lives.  It's an obsession.

I'm not telling you to do anything, I'm saying "look, here is a problem, you might want to address it because that's the moral thing to do, and here's how you can..." If appealing to your humanity doesn't work then there isn't much else I can do.

They all say it until they manage to use the government power to enforce it.

Live long and let live.

 

Offline corrado33

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #107 on: March 31, 2015, 06:39:58 pm »
Don't fall for the people trying to paint it as some kind of gender war, or oppression of men. It's a problem for both genders. We need more male teachers, especially for very young children, and there are programmes and incentives in place to encourage them. It's not sexist, it's trying to fix a problem. A problem that when fixed benefits us all.

As long as there aren't unfair barriers to entry, then I don't see why it's a problem or why it needs to be fixed.

Why do we need more male teachers for young kids? 

I think men and women are different in ways that will never be normalized... I think it is an inherent aspect of being male to be a provider and a majority of women I know (in their 20's and 30's) are more concerned with family.  That's not a label I apply to them, it's what they say themselves.  As such, in the wide world of careers and options in this world, there are some that men will gravitate towards and some that women will gravitate towards.  And there's nothing wrong with that, nor does it need to be 'fixed'.

I can see where you're coming from. In fact I said pretty much the same thing a few pages ago. I think what a lot of people think is that if small children see an equal number of male/female teachers/doctors/scientists, they won't assign those jobs to a specific gender. While this could work. I think there are easier ways of achieving the same thing.

I agree with you that there are inherent differences between men and women that should never be forcibly normalized.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #108 on: March 31, 2015, 07:33:24 pm »
I can see where you're coming from. In fact I said pretty much the same thing a few pages ago. I think what a lot of people think is that if small children see an equal number of male/female teachers/doctors/scientists, they won't assign those jobs to a specific gender. While this could work. I think there are easier ways of achieving the same thing.

I agree with you that there are inherent differences between men and women that should never be forcibly normalized.

We agree.

I think, as with so many things, it is a solution in search of a problem to justify it.

As I've said before... the root of the problem in cases such as this is people wanting to legislate on what they "feel" rather than what is.  This leads to erroneous thinking such as believing we can legislate away poverty or laziness or violent behavior, when human values and beliefs are much more complex things. 
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #109 on: March 31, 2015, 07:55:40 pm »

It shouldn't be necessary, but unfortunately it often is, because, well, humans are humans, and some of then are not nice and/or are simply not capable of treating all people equally.
And it's not just about gender, that's a drop in the bucket, you can get the same or worse discrimination/harassment/non-acceptance in engineering and almost any other industry etc

Exactly right. The problem is that for anyone who belongs to one of the often discriminated against groups, it is usually impossible to know if any particular instance of mistreatment is due to that issue or just because the person doing it is a dick.

The ideal is equal opportunity *not* equal outcomes.  There are innate differences. The problem comes when any group tries to point to this or that unequal outcome as *the* proof of discrimination.

Equal opportunity is a goal that will never be fully achieved but that doesn't mean it is not something that is worth working towards. 

I agree that you can't legislate away human biases.  But that does not mean that *some* legislation is not necessary at times to work towards more equal opportunity.

Of course there will always be some (in the US) who wish the 19th Amendment to the Constitution or the Voting Rights Act of 1965 had never passed but fortunately these people are now in the minority.  In fact many of those who vocally opposed these pieces of legislation later in life came to agree that they were necessary. Obviously they did not result in equal outcomes (not the goal) but it would be hard to argue that they did not help create more equal opportunity.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #110 on: March 31, 2015, 08:32:54 pm »
The ideal is equal opportunity *not* equal outcomes.  There are innate differences. The problem comes when any group tries to point to this or that unequal outcome as *the* proof of discrimination.

Very well said.

And also one's right for personal sacristies that will enhance the opportunity of his children.
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #111 on: March 31, 2015, 09:04:40 pm »
And also one's right for personal sacristies that will enhance the opportunity of his children.
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #112 on: March 31, 2015, 09:41:31 pm »
And also one's right for personal sacristies that will enhance the opportunity of his children.
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

My mobile swipe keyboard has its own will. Should be sacrifices.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #113 on: April 01, 2015, 09:14:22 am »
Don't fall for the people trying to paint it as some kind of gender war, or oppression of men. It's a problem for both genders. We need more male teachers, especially for very young children, and there are programmes and incentives in place to encourage them. It's not sexist, it's trying to fix a problem. A problem that when fixed benefits us all.

As long as there aren't unfair barriers to entry, then I don't see why it's a problem or why it needs to be fixed.

Why do we need more male teachers for young kids? 
In the UK, girls do better at school than boys. There are plenty of theories about this. One is the lack of male teachers to act as role models so boys see learning as girly thing and don't bother.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/aug/21/gcse-results-2014-biggest-gap-11-boys-and-girls-a-c-pass-rate

It also could be due to innate differences: girls mature earlier than boys or maybe they're more submissive and therefore are easier to discipline.
 

Offline 8086

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #114 on: April 01, 2015, 11:50:27 am »
We are quite obviously not talking about anyone's ability to run 100m.

That's just a moronic reply, frankly.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #115 on: April 01, 2015, 12:00:26 pm »
None, as long as it is a choice and people don't feel pressure to conform to those ideals.

Unless you live in a vacuum you'll always have peer and society pressure in almost every aspect of your life you care to name.
Trying to get rid of it is just playing whack-a-mole.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #116 on: April 01, 2015, 12:32:35 pm »
You have two sets of magazines in a doctor's surgery: In one pile, Women's gossip magazines about celebrities and royalty. In another pile, Electronics magazines like Elektor about circuit designs. I would wage a bet that at least 95% of the time, women choose to read the gossip magazines.

Men are not to blame for the appalling lack of female electronics hardware engineers in Australia.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #117 on: April 01, 2015, 02:05:36 pm »
Recently in the news. The supporters of a local female politician prepared this list of sexist words that the media should avoid

"polarizing," "calculating," "disingenuous," "insincere," "ambitious," "inevitable," "entitled," "over-confident," "secretive," "will do anything to win," "represents the past," and "out of touch."

Quote
That's according to the Clinton "Super Volunteers," who have promised to track the media's use of words they believe to be sexist code words.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/03/26/the-13-words-you-cant-write-about-hillary-clinton-anymore/
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #118 on: April 01, 2015, 03:00:52 pm »
Recently in the news. The supporters of a local female politician prepared this list of sexist words that the media should avoid

"polarizing," "calculating," "disingenuous," "insincere," "ambitious," "inevitable," "entitled," "over-confident," "secretive," "will do anything to win," "represents the past," and "out of touch."

Quote
That's according to the Clinton "Super Volunteers," who have promised to track the media's use of words they believe to be sexist code words.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/03/26/the-13-words-you-cant-write-about-hillary-clinton-anymore/
Perhaps because they're all true and often said about many politicians?

I know, perhaps the media should start using other words such as fascist and censorship?
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #119 on: April 01, 2015, 03:43:35 pm »
As far as I'm concerned words such as bossy and calculating are not related to gender and mean the same thing regardless of whether they're referring to a man or woman.

Words such as bitch and slut are more commonly associated with women and I can accept are sexist and should be avoided.
 

Offline Tallie

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #120 on: April 01, 2015, 03:52:49 pm »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/03/26/the-13-words-you-cant-write-about-hillary-clinton-anymore/

It's a shame you didn't read beyond the first few paragraphs because the article then points out that they are actually right. If you look at how those words are used in association with her it's mostly by right-wing media that is trying to attack her. It's the same argument someone made about calling women "bossy", when used about women it's often (but not always) seen as a character flaw. With men it's more often a positive trait, referred to as leadership.

What bothers me is that they are not trying to redefine how these words are associated with women. For example, a man who is "calculating" is seen as intelligent and precise, where as a woman who is "calculating" tends to be associated with a lack of emotions and craftiness. Instead of trying to fix that they are just trying to call out media that use those words in a negative way... I suppose they have an election to win which takes priority, but still...
No; it isn't. What world are you living in? What a farce...
 

Offline Tallie

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #121 on: April 01, 2015, 03:56:54 pm »
As far as I'm concerned words such as bossy and calculating are not related to gender and mean the same thing regardless of whether they're referring to a man or woman.

Words such as bitch and slut are more commonly associated with women and I can accept are sexist and should be avoided.
Is it sexist to call someone a dick? What all of this boils down to is that some folks need to put their big boy pants on... and get on with life. You want a career in STEM? Nobody's restraining you. Plenty of women have somehow found a way to make it happen. Don't expect anyone to hold your hand.
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #122 on: April 01, 2015, 04:06:39 pm »
It's the same argument someone made about calling women "bossy", when used about women it's often (but not always) seen as a character flaw. With men it's more often a positive trait, referred to as leadership.

That would be the "ban bossy" campaign, which is pushed by a lot more people than 'someone'.

My aunt was bossy - her sister (my mother) complained about it constantly. Bossiness in a close relative is a character flaw, although in her case understandable.

Professionally she was a noted local leader, chairman of the district council for some years. (She refused to be addressed as 'chairwoman' or 'chairperson', because she felt that 'chairman' was a description of her office and no more sexist than 'human'. As for 'chair', she was of the opinion that she wasn't about to be sat on by anyone.)

Her peers called her 'bossy' at their peril, but she would cheerfully admit to it from family.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #123 on: April 01, 2015, 05:00:05 pm »
It's a shame you didn't read beyond the first few paragraphs because the article then points out that they are actually right. If you look at how those words are used in association with her it's mostly by right-wing media that is trying to attack her.

All politicians get attacked by the oposition. Mojo Chan, with all the respect, I know that you believe in what you are saying but sometimes it's so over the top that it comes as a troll. This is one more example.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 05:09:15 pm by zapta »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #124 on: April 01, 2015, 05:06:04 pm »
Words such as bitch and slut are more commonly associated with women and I can accept are sexist and should be avoided.

But they are just as valid as the male specific words. The whining is typically hypocritical and one sided.

 


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