Author Topic: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?  (Read 117754 times)

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Offline rolycat

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #125 on: April 01, 2015, 05:50:10 pm »
As far as I'm concerned words such as bossy and calculating are not related to gender and mean the same thing regardless of whether they're referring to a man or woman.

Words such as bitch and slut are more commonly associated with women and I can accept are sexist and should be avoided.
But only if you are a man, of course. Beyoncé, one of the supporters of the 'Ban Bossy' campaign, manages to use the word 'bitch' nine times on her eponymous album.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #126 on: April 01, 2015, 06:27:19 pm »
Words such as bitch and slut are more commonly associated with women and I can accept are sexist and should be avoided.

But they are just as valid as the male specific words. The whining is typically hypocritical and one sided.

I agree, both are sexist.
As far as I'm concerned words such as bossy and calculating are not related to gender and mean the same thing regardless of whether they're referring to a man or woman.

Words such as bitch and slut are more commonly associated with women and I can accept are sexist and should be avoided.
But only if you are a man, of course. Beyoncé, one of the supporters of the 'Ban Bossy' campaign, manages to use the word 'bitch' nine times on her eponymous album.

I agree, like the numbers African American rappers who hate racism, yet use the word nigger lots in their music.

Regarding beat the bossy: do we really want people who are offended so easily in leadership positions? To be a leader one has to rise above the bullshit insults and get on with the job.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #127 on: April 01, 2015, 08:06:25 pm »
You have two sets of magazines in a doctor's surgery: In one pile, Women's gossip magazines about celebrities and royalty. In another pile, Electronics magazines like Elektor about circuit designs. I would wage a bet that at least 95% of the time, women choose to read the gossip magazines.

Men are not to blame for the appalling lack of female electronics hardware engineers in Australia.

I think most of the guys would too ;)

men or women, I think it is still it is a small minority that would find electronics magazines interesting as
an idle time waster at the doctors office

 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #128 on: April 01, 2015, 10:25:08 pm »
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I think most of the guys would too ;)

It is a lot easier to just blame the other gender.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #129 on: April 01, 2015, 10:44:11 pm »
Bossy isn't nearly as bad of course, but some people are arguing that it is harmful.

Those people are idiots who are too easily offended.
No one has a right not to be offended by anything.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #130 on: April 01, 2015, 10:52:53 pm »
Is it sexist to call someone a dick?

Women gets called dickheads all the time in Australia, the term is basically gender neutral.

Quote
What all of this boils down to is that some folks need to put their big boy pants on... and get on with life. You want a career in STEM? Nobody's restraining you. Plenty of women have somehow found a way to make it happen. Don't expect anyone to hold your hand.

Somehow? They simply do it the same way men do. It's not rocket science, and doesn't require someone to come and wave a magic anti-misogynist wand or pave your path in rose petals. Just do it.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #131 on: April 01, 2015, 11:10:33 pm »
What bothers me is that they are not trying to redefine how these words are associated with women. For example, a man who is "calculating" is seen as intelligent and precise, where as a woman who is "calculating" tends to be associated with a lack of emotions and craftiness. Instead of trying to fix that they are just trying to call out media that use those words in a negative way... I suppose they have an election to win which takes priority, but still...

But still... what?

I don't understand the seeming obsession to make everything equal?

A woman called beautiful is a big compliment.. saying the same to a man is generally considered strange at best.  Same with calling a woman handsome and vice versa.   Men and women are inherently different, and there are different traits and characteristics that are associated with each. 

Most of the women I know *want* to be feminine, and don't want or need people "helping" them by "saving" them from double standards in what words mean and how they are used.

Doting over that kind of bullshit takes the spotlight away from the real issues, like pay differences between men/women and sexual harassment that women may experience.  It's ridiculous to the point of being condescending.
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Offline Corporate666

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #132 on: April 01, 2015, 11:16:01 pm »
Words such as bitch and slut are more commonly associated with women and I can accept are sexist and should be avoided.

I don't get that either, or agree with it.

I don't use words like that professionally, but personally I have and I am sure will again.  Around here, asshole and dick tend to refer to men, bitch and slut to women.  If I've ever used bitch or slut towards a man, it's either with the intent to emasculate (in the case of bitch) or as a compliment (calling a male friend a slut). 

This goes back to the inherent differences between men and women.  Some seem to think we're going to wind up in a fantasy world where men and women are totally equal - hell, we can have co-ed showers and put women in the front lines in war.  I don't think that will ever happen, nor should it... as a man, I will always step in and be protective of women, and as a man, I don't want my girlfriend showering in front of other guys (and she would be jealous if I was showing with a bunch of women - and I have no problem with her feeling so).

As long as the differences exist between genders, there will always and irreversibly be words which imply one gender or another.  Thinking we can - or should - stamp this out is an exercise in idiocy.  Not referring to you or your post specifically, just to the topic in general.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 11:19:47 pm by Corporate666 »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #133 on: April 01, 2015, 11:29:04 pm »
What bothers me is that they are not trying to redefine how these words are associated with women. For example, a man who is "calculating" is seen as intelligent and precise, where as a woman who is "calculating" tends to be associated with a lack of emotions and craftiness. Instead of trying to fix that they are just trying to call out media that use those words in a negative way... I suppose they have an election to win which takes priority, but still...

But still... what?

I don't understand the seeming obsession to make everything equal?

A woman called beautiful is a big compliment.. saying the same to a man is generally considered strange at best.  Same with calling a woman handsome and vice versa.   Men and women are inherently different, and there are different traits and characteristics that are associated with each. 
That is obvious. However, what this thread is about is respecting the opposite sex in situations when the differences between the genders don't matter.The 'work place' is such a situation.

There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #134 on: April 02, 2015, 12:24:04 am »
What bothers me is that they are not trying to redefine how these words are associated with women. For example, a man who is "calculating" is seen as intelligent and precise, where as a woman who is "calculating" tends to be associated with a lack of emotions and craftiness. Instead of trying to fix that they are just trying to call out media that use those words in a negative way... I suppose they have an election to win which takes priority, but still...

But still... what?

I don't understand the seeming obsession to make everything equal?

A woman called beautiful is a big compliment.. saying the same to a man is generally considered strange at best.  Same with calling a woman handsome and vice versa.   Men and women are inherently different, and there are different traits and characteristics that are associated with each. 
That is obvious. However, what this thread is about is respecting the opposite sex in situations when the differences between the genders don't matter.The 'work place' is such a situation.


Which is why I said "Doting over that kind of bullshit takes the spotlight away from the real issues, like pay differences between men/women and sexual harassment that women may experience.  It's ridiculous to the point of being condescending."

Fretting over the gender-specific connotations of gender neutral words like "bossy" would be "doting over that kind of bullshit".

There is a fantastic YouTube video by YouTuber "Maddox" entitled "Spider-Woman's Big Ass is a Big Deal" that almost perfectly sums up some of the complaints of this thread.  All the folks white knighting should go watch it.
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Offline Tallie

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #135 on: April 02, 2015, 01:06:41 am »
What bothers me is that they are not trying to redefine how these words are associated with women. For example, a man who is "calculating" is seen as intelligent and precise, where as a woman who is "calculating" tends to be associated with a lack of emotions and craftiness. Instead of trying to fix that they are just trying to call out media that use those words in a negative way... I suppose they have an election to win which takes priority, but still...

But still... what?

I don't understand the seeming obsession to make everything equal?

A woman called beautiful is a big compliment.. saying the same to a man is generally considered strange at best.  Same with calling a woman handsome and vice versa.   Men and women are inherently different, and there are different traits and characteristics that are associated with each. 
That is obvious. However, what this thread is about is respecting the opposite sex in situations when the differences between the genders don't matter.The 'work place' is such a situation.


Which is why I said "Doting over that kind of bullshit takes the spotlight away from the real issues, like pay differences between men/women and sexual harassment that women may experience.  It's ridiculous to the point of being condescending."

Fretting over the gender-specific connotations of gender neutral words like "bossy" would be "doting over that kind of bullshit".

There is a fantastic YouTube video by YouTuber "Maddox" entitled "Spider-Woman's Big Ass is a Big Deal" that almost perfectly sums up some of the complaints of this thread.  All the folks white knighting should go watch it.
Great video by Maddox... but mojo has already expressed discontent with thunderf00t's content so it may fall on deaf ears.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #136 on: April 02, 2015, 02:19:47 am »
Was recently in the news. Global warming is also sexist.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-concurrent-resolution/29
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #137 on: April 02, 2015, 02:29:55 am »
Bossy isn't nearly as bad of course, but some people are arguing that it is harmful.

Those people are idiots who are too easily offended.
No one has a right not to be offended by anything.

Try telling that to those sons of neanderthals who murdered the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists.

In actual fact we have a unique law in Australia that limits our free speech. Its called libel. If you have the money, you can sue anyone who publishes anything that adversely affects your reputation, even if it is true. In practice it rarely happens, because suing someone over the truth would do your own reputation more damage.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #138 on: April 02, 2015, 04:51:49 am »
In actual fact we have a unique law in Australia that limits our free speech. Its called libel. If you have the money, you can sue anyone who publishes anything that adversely affects your reputation, even if it is true.

Nope, sorry, you cannot be sued for defamation for telling the demonstrable truth.
EDIT: You cannot be successfully sued
Anyone can be sued at any time for anything, doesn't mean the suit is the least bit valid.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 04:57:06 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #139 on: April 02, 2015, 09:24:49 am »
So, do you dismiss all those stories that were in the study, the ones I posted screenshots of? I'm interested to know what your interpretation is, because to me those issues seem like ones that are unique to girls.

Once again you pick an issue, give it disproportional importance and require everybody else to change their life and adapt to your utopian vision.

I can write a program that will generate posts like yours.  All it take is a simple template with a few variables.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #140 on: April 02, 2015, 10:46:54 am »
Maybe guys should start reading romance novels, instead of comic books ;)

Btw, plenty of girls like comic books, but I still have to find a guy that likes romance novels.  :-//

Edit: unless they are in the romance novel business that is.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #141 on: April 02, 2015, 10:52:52 am »
Quote
plenty of girls like comic books, but I still have to find a guy that likes romance novels.

Can fandoms fix romance novel's gender gap?
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Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #142 on: April 02, 2015, 10:54:38 am »
Actually there are more girls graduating from universities than boys.

Maybe it is time to lower the admission / grading standards for boys to even that out?

Maybe it is time to randomly jail girls to  make sure that the population there is 50/50?
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Offline rolycat

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #143 on: April 02, 2015, 11:19:31 am »
Maybe guys should start reading romance novels, instead of comic books ;)

Btw, plenty of girls like comic books, but I still have to find a guy that likes romance novels.  :-//
I like romance novels, as did both of my parents. My dad adored Jeffery Farnol's books, and my mother is fond of Georgette Heyer. Both authors wrote mostly Regency romances, like latter-day Jane Austens, and I read them all as a kid.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #144 on: April 02, 2015, 11:37:37 am »
I didn't watch the video (no sound on this machine) but I read the article he wrote on the subject. It's a bit bombastic but he makes a reasonable point. Spider-man is pretty much just as bad as Spider-woman. It's a problem with comic books. Okay, maybe Superman can justifiably be ridiculously built for a human, but Batman? Other humans like The Flash and Green Lantern?

Basically comic books have extremely unrealistic images of bodies, and are hyper-sexualized. Some people say it isn't a problem because the characters are supposed to be unreal, but psychologists disagree. It's like photoshopped models in magazines, people know rationally that they are not real but they still have an effect. Of course comics have a lot of other issues, like the "women in fridges" trope, but they are improving.

Seriously? Comic books have SUPERheroes in them. Emphasis on "SUPER", they are a fantasy (just like a magazine supermodel.) Do you think Spiderman should be some ordinary guy, rather than a genetically altered self-confessed nerd? Then he wouldn't be friggin' Spiderman! He'd just be "man"!

If we lived in your world Mojo, we'd be afraid of saying or doing anything, for fear of potentially insulting someone else. I'll need to ask for someone's preferred pronouns (rather than just their biological sex, god help me if I get that wrong), if they're emotionally triggered by any particular word or colour or have a distaste for certain subjects.

As Mr. Rowan Atkinson said (paraphrased) "We have a right to insult and be insulted". I don't suppose you think Mr. Bean's actions are potentially insulting to people who are mute, or mentally deficient, or those who drive orange Minis?

The real world ain't a padded room, nor should it be! I'm all for accomodating other's abilities and disabilities, and for promoting and supporting equal treatment on grounds of race, religion, sexual orientation, gender, etc. But, I think you have to draw the line at some point.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 11:41:47 am by tom66 »
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #145 on: April 02, 2015, 12:28:15 pm »
Seriously? Comic books have SUPERheroes in them. Emphasis on "SUPER", they are a fantasy (just like a magazine supermodel.) Do you think Spiderman should be some ordinary guy, rather than a genetically altered self-confessed nerd? Then he wouldn't be friggin' Spiderman! He'd just be "man"!
The use of supermodels is well known to be harmful, so I'm not sure what your argument is.
His argument is about fictional superheroes, not real models.

Quote
Unrealistic body images in advertising lead to physical and mental illness in some children. You could blame the victim and say they are all weak willed, or blame the parents, but I prefer to blame the thing that is actually causing the problem.
And again you are moving the goalposts.

Quote
As for Spider-man, in both movie adaptations he is played by a normal looking guy. That didn't seem to be a problem.
Normal looking until he is wearing the suit, which covers a foam latex set of heroic fake muscles - because superheroes are not supposed to be normal.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #146 on: April 02, 2015, 12:36:53 pm »
So, do you dismiss all those stories that were in the study, the ones I posted screenshots of? I'm interested to know what your interpretation is, because to me those issues seem like ones that are unique to girls.

So what's your point? Did you miss my huge list of things that anyone can get harassed/discriminated against for? Go stand in line.
So some dickheads in the industry discriminate against females, wow, that's stunning news, who would have thought!
I don't like it anymore than you do, and it doesn't mean people shouldn't speak up about it, they should, but it's usually a storm in tea cup IMO, and you only ever hear from the one who shout the loudest. I know countless women in the industry who never had such an issue, but do you ever hear from them?, no, the issue is usually blown out of proportion by some who take it as some personal lifelong crusade.
I know a lot more people in the industry who have been discriminated against (and driven out of the industry) for other reasons than just being female.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #147 on: April 02, 2015, 12:42:15 pm »
So, do you dismiss all those stories that were in the study, the ones I posted screenshots of? I'm interested to know what your interpretation is, because to me those issues seem like ones that are unique to girls.
Once again you pick an issue, give it disproportional importance and require everybody else to change their life and adapt to your utopian vision.

+1
 

Offline electr_peter

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #148 on: April 02, 2015, 12:47:25 pm »
Wow, going after superheroes and fairly tales really says something. If you want to show real problems to broader society and be considered serious, choose a better strategy than pure propaganda.

If one would take a closer look, almost all fairly-tales, fantasy stories, comic books, tales, old songs, folk art, etc. have similar (broadly speaking) themes and few story lines. Stories are tied to local traditions, history beliefs and represent general thinking/expression of art at the time. However, there are 2 main points - 1) many of these stories are pure fantasy (unreal) if taken at the face value and 2) no real person would willingly live in one of those stories if you think about it. Point 1) is pretty obvious. As for point 2) - let's just say that stories are simplified and not suitable for normal human being - blood is spilling free, superheroes are actually superlosers (they even have superpowers but still cannot do anything useful), many characters are too stupid/honest/strange, role of regular people is beyond miserable.

Sure, some fairly tells have some hidden agenda or indoctrination. But it is up to a person to understand/learn/decode it.

Now, to claim that fairly-tales/comic books/etc. are suppressing women and should be banned/modified to fit "perfect view" is to work for a propaganda agency which puts dirt on everything it sees as non fit for its agenda. Do we have to burn books again because you do not like some pictures? Where has the freedom of speech (art/expression/...) gone?

Some say cover pictures put too much influence on young kinds/instil "wrong" expectations so it should be removed/banned. I would say it is not a bright idea because it is not that simple, society itself puts expectations/world view in our heads by many means. Also not everyone is the same, so forcing "right expectations/worldview" of a single "right" group to all others is simply not right.

I may not like some newspapers/fairly-tales/books/comic books because of their style, pictures or story line. In fact, pick any work of art/newspaper/etc. - there almost surely will be someone who does not like it because of personal taste, political views, agenda or any other reason. However, I will defend media sources/book publishers from restriction/ban because otherwise we will completely loose all freedom of expression bit by bit.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 12:51:14 pm by electr_peter »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #149 on: April 02, 2015, 12:50:50 pm »
Ah, I just remembered that MojoChan has been previously temporarily banned for getting carried away with discussions on misogyny here.
Step wisely...
 
 


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