Author Topic: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?  (Read 117760 times)

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Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2015, 09:39:53 pm »
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But do not say that girls are disadvantaged. They have the same opportunities as boys, and face the same adversity.

Absolutely true. Those "advocates" are essentially advocating for a sexist policy in favor of one sex at the expense of the other. Why? Let people win on merits and merits only.

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In related news, equal everything advocates are calling for more women commiting violent crime.

Yeah. Women are definitely under-presented in prisons. So let's randomly jail them to avoid any disparity there too. :)

Women are also likely to live longer than men. So let's randomly execute women to avoid any disparity there. :)

...

the list goes on.

Some people are just no happy with equal opportunity. If they cannot win on merits, they will win on skin color, gender, sex orientation or any other attributes of the moment.

They are every bit as sexist / racist / bigots as those who discriminate on the basis of skin color, gender .....
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Offline Rupunzell

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2015, 06:35:31 am »
http://www.cnet.com/news/ellen-pao-trial-ends-on-plea-for-gender-equality-in-the-tech-industry/


Despite Pao's stellar performance reviews, she received second class treatment. Friend who is the CFO at a significant American corporation said to me, "It is not a glass ceiling, the celling is plexiglass." Have been in the tech industry for decades, male folks have NO idea what it is like to be a woman working in a truly male dominated industry... And I'm not going to get into this now or later. What I will say, gender and age discrimination is absolutely a part and fixture of the Silly Valley tech world.


Bernice
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2015, 06:45:22 am »
Complete political BS.

The 2016 elections season started here and Hilary is planning on playing the gender card. Get prepared for the an onslaught of gender related talking points from the left and the mainstream media.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2015, 09:10:28 am »
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Despite Pao's stellar performance reviews, she received second class treatment.

I am sure she thought that way. But there is the other side of the story too.
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2015, 09:26:53 am »
Although I would have loved to see less anecdotal evidence and more statistics from a male perspective for comparison, the video deals with something real - in one of the examples, you can't help but think what the heck happened since 1985, where women's CS degrees decreased from 37 to 18%. Given that most popular video games in the 80's were tailored to boys, this could explain why girls were put off from computing - but it does not explain the whole STEM gap as the video title suggests. At a certain point I was lost in the fandom concept, but the most positive aspect I got from the Tumblr example is: if women engage in CS and bring a different perspective to web design, we will all benefit with the improvements on the crap websites we currently have (which evidences that men clearly suck at this)  :)

OTOH, the article linked by Phillip Greenspun starts very well and tries to explain the issue for the sciences field, but it became very so-so when it rambled on about some fertility crap and only provided anecdotal evidence from a young women's career perspectives in science. Again, the young men's perspective in science is not well described for comparison. Also, the salary analysis is very true, but it would put off anyone and thus is not gender specific.

As for my own experience in engineering, my wife is an electronics engineer and she tells me all the time how difficult it is to have her opinions considered in both the university and in a work environment predominantly composed by men. 

At one time we both worked at the same company and I did not feel the same issues, thus one could consider differences of opinion (which obviously exists - we are different people) but also differences between how different genders behave and treat each other.

This last point is interesting: over the years my wife carefully observed how her university colleagues and later coworkers (vast majority of men) dealt with differences in opinion: usually by confrontation and the eventual sudden increase in loudness. As a man I think this is normal (obviously under certain limits) and I can brush this off without a problem - for her, however, words have a more inflicting effect. This is also mentioned by the girl in the video, and it does not need to be wide open and confrontational - snarky comments and passive aggressiveness are differently perceived by different genders.

Therefore in my experience this is one of the key gender differences that is unfavourable for women on the current male predominant engineering scenario.

Another one that is mentioned on the video is less influential but still significant: being immersed in an environment where you are the only one with a specific feature (age, color of skin, gender, cultural background, etc.) feels strange, although one can be used to it.

At last, I also disagree with the pie-in-the-sky magical percentage number.
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Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2015, 10:35:34 am »
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Therefore in my experience this is one of the key gender differences that is unfavourable for women on the current male predominant engineering scenario.

What's the solution to that problem, though?

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since 1985, where women's CS degrees decreased from 37 to 18%.

i went to Wellesley for a seminar on this. The picture was actually much more stark: computer science, when it started, had predominantly women students. As a matter of fact, most "computer programmers" then were women - crossed over from typists.

What they found out was that men are far more interested in new ways of doing things and women however in new ways of applying those new things. So some schools are offering separate men / women computer science classes and to teach them differently.

Now sure if it will make a sustained impact, however.
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Offline george graves

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2015, 10:50:05 am »
Anyway, I watched all of 2 minutes into that video to the point where she said "I was uncomfortable in a room full of 17 men." I think maybe that's the first thing that needs to be fixed. As a man, I am NOT uncomfortable in a room full of 17 women. Heck, I wouldn't even notice unless someone pointed it out. People are people to me. In my job, I don't judge you based on your race or sex, I judge you based on your work and how competent you are at it.

I agree.  If I'm doing a collaborative project I'm more looking around the room to see who is the strong links in the chain(to cling to), and who's going to be someone that might need a bit of help(to help) - or even road block to getting things done(to avoid) -rather then gender.  And I've worked on a lot of projects with big budget productions that the artist, the designer, and the producer come from all walk of life.  Gay, straight, transgendered....

The the statement of "I was uncomfortable in a room full of 17 men." I don't get.  Personal safety?

And as far as "fandoms" go - can someone explain that to me?  I'm getting old.  Oh...and GET OFF MY LAWN!

« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 10:54:16 am by george graves »
 

Offline corrado33

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2015, 04:13:52 pm »
I'm still none the wiser where you got "50% is the goal" from. I think it's your own idea that you are projecting onto other people. At the very least, it's not part of the mainstream feminist movement.

That's interesting because my female co-workers say that there is. One told me about a lecturer she had at university who was very dismissive to girls and basically refused to help them in any way.

I'm not trying to use the 50% as a magical number, I'm saying that ANY number is completely arbitrary. (At least I'm trying to say that.) How are we to judge when things are "equal?" By opinions of women, men? At what (completely arbitrary) number will feminists be happy? At what percentage will things be considered "solved?" Statistics are going to be used to judge the "extent" of this "problem" You cannot simply ignore the percentages because that's what the majority of the people will be looking at. (More importantly, that's what politicians will be looking at, and they're the ones who are going to make the laws to try to fix it...)

My friend also told me of a lecturer that said something similar to her (a very long time ago). However that kind of crap wouldn't fly today. That professor would be kicked out so quick they wouldn't have a chance to say another word. (Or at least reprimanded/sued.) Sexism isn't tolerated as a university professor. However, it turns out that some old men are still somewhat sexist, hence why you hear these stories every once in a while. You cannot say that every girl (especially today) has experienced something similar.

Very nice writeup by rsj by the way. What I get from that is this. Men and women perceive other people differently. Men don't have to act any differently around other men. We don't take things to heart and we don't think if our words will hurt someone else's ego. So here's the question. Do we teach women to be less sensitive, or do we teach men to be artificially nice (around women)? I don't think the whole "Men you must be nicer to your female colleagues" does anything good for equality in the workplace. If anything it's perpetuating more sexism. (Even if it was a blanket statement that said "People must start being nicer in the workplace" it still wouldn't work. Everyone would know WHY that statement was sent out and again, it'd just perpetuate more sexism.) You can't force people to be nice to other people. Yes, good manners dictate that you should be nice to everyone, but that's always what happens. In any job any person must learn to cope with what's thrown at them. Yes, men have predominantly dominated these fields. If women want to work here, then they're going have to deal with the antics of men." And that goes both ways by the way. Men working in women dominated fields also have to deal with the antics of women. And anyone working in a varied environment must deal with the antics of their coworkers, regardless of sex. "Men you must keep your ego in check because we're going to be hiring more women employees." Yeah, don't see that going over well, for either side of the argument.

As for "being in a room full of people who are dislike you." I teach students, I do this weekly. I've very often in a room full of people who are not like me. To me, they're my peers, and I teach them to the best of my ability. Feeling odd in a room full of people dislike you most likely stems from some sort of insecurity. (In fact, I believe that's very close to the definition OF insecurity...) Believe in yourself, and this will never be a problem.

I apologize if I seem a bit harsh this morning. I really need to stop typing these long winded responses.
 

Offline ynfo

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2015, 05:06:37 pm »
That reminds me of a lecturer at Cambridge University a while back. Every time he arrived he'd look around, say "good morning gentlemen" and proceed with the lecture. That understandably pissed the girls off so they arranged that for one lecture all the boys would stay away and see what happened.

So the lecturer arrived, looked around at a room full of girls, said "Oh, no one here", and walked out!
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2015, 05:16:03 pm »
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How are we to judge when things are "equal?"

Agreed. The title of this thread ("Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?") pre-supposes that such a gender gap, however defined, needs to be fixed.

I don't know it wise to talk about solutions before establishing that we have a problem.
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Offline marshallh

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2015, 07:30:10 pm »
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GRAVITY HOLDS WOMEN DOWN!

It’s time to discuss the extra burden that gravity places on women, says Colleen Hyphenated-Lastname, president of the Propaganda Organization for Women.

“Feminist scientists on an archaeological dig in Mesopotamia have discovered illustrations of women who seem to be floating in the air,” Hyphenated-Lastname says.  “This cutting-edge research indicates that there once was a time when gravity did not exist.  In fact, these artifacts indicate that society was once gender equal, and women held most high offices of power and controlled the television remote.”

“But all this changed with the onset of western patriarchal societies that wanted to keep women down.  If there were no distinctions between men and women, patriarchal oppressors had to invent them.  And if there was no gravity to keep women down, the patriarchy had to invent that, too.”

“Gravity is designed to benefit men, who have thicker bones and greater upper-body strength.  Today, we see the results everywhere of the patriarchy’s efforts to keep women down.  Gravity causes women to fall to their deaths out of windows or down stairs.  It makes buildings collapse, killing women and children.  It damages women’s cars when some inconsiderate construction worker topples from the tenth floor and bounces off the hood.  Gravity makes the complete, leather-bound editions of Carrie Chapman Catt fall off my bookshelf and give me such a smack I can hardly see straight.”

“Navy pilot Kara Hultgreen would not have crashed her jet except for gravity.  Clearly, she was set up to fail.”

“Women seek treatment for depression at far higher rates.  Obviously, more women are feeling ‘down.’  Gravity is just another way in which women’s health is being shortchanged.”

“This oppression is historical, the product of white, western men who wanted to hold onto power.  The laws of physics were written long before women had the right to vote.  If women had had more input, the laws of physics would have been kinder, and gravity would have been supportive.  Instead, we are shackled with the competitive, conflict-oriented mode of men.  Isaac Newton, a typical dead white European male, was obsessed with ‘opposing’ reactions, even if he hypocritically admitted that some of them were equal.  When he declared that for every action there is opposed an equal reaction, he was doing nothing less than defining the backlash.  If women had had a chance to shape these laws, their conflict-free style of interaction would have made sure that there were no opposed reactions.  All reactions simply would have been equal.

“We can undo the oppressive, patriarchal mindset that would have us believe that gravity really represents the ‘natural’ order of things,” says Hyphenated-Lastname.  “It will require spending money on programs to elevate girls’ self esteem so that they are not held down by artificial concepts of patriarchy.”

“The enlightenment of women will cost a lot of other people's money,” says Hyphenated-Lastname.  "But in a world where the discriminatory effects of gravity are so pervasive, can we really afford not to spend it?"
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Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2015, 10:45:22 pm »
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it means people can carry on being asshats

Maybe the real reason women didn't want to go into tech is their unwillingness to work with asshats like you who are so emotionally disturbed that everyone refusing to buy his political BS is called nasty names?
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2015, 11:06:49 pm »
That reminds me of a lecturer at Cambridge University a while back. Every time he arrived he'd look around, say "good morning gentlemen" and proceed with the lecture. That understandably pissed the girls off so they arranged that for one lecture all the boys would stay away and see what happened.

So the lecturer arrived, looked around at a room full of girls, said "Oh, no one here", and walked out!
During my BsC EE study there was one female student in my class but she had camouflaged herself to fit in with the boys. Some teachers defaulted to Mr  X. when going through the list with students. We told her to keep quiet when addressed as Mr X. So when the teacher asked whether we had seen Mr X today we would say 'no' but told him there is a Miss X present because that is no way to treat a lady.  :-DD For some teachers it took two sessions of 'training'.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 11:08:41 pm by nctnico »
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Offline corrado33

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2015, 04:18:30 pm »
First off, there's no need for name calling and strawmen arguments. (Or should I say "strawwomen?"  ;D)

We know there is a problem because women tell us they want to go into tech but find various barriers that only affect their gender in the way. I suppose they could all just be really shit programmers and rely on lying about this stuff to get ahead, but that seems unlikely since the things they complain about are easily observable.

You're contradicting yourself here. If you're saying that the things that women complain about are "easily observable" then why are we basing our arguments on what the women are telling us, and not the "easily observable" things themselves?

Secondly, we should look at WHAT women are complaining about. What are the barriers that women say exist? I want specifics, not "oh this guy was a jerk to me and makes me feel unwelcome..." I'm not trying to be mean here. We've established that some of the "barriers" are things that men don't notice, normal things that men do. So, please, tell me what the barriers are. Otherwise I will not know what they are. (This still came off harsh. I'm simply ignorant, I really DO want to know so I can better argue one side or the other.)

I'll give one example that my friend brought up the other day. She said that, from a young age, women are subjected to the idea that "Hot women are cool, smart women are nerdy, and everyone wants to be cool." (Paraphrasing her words, not mine.) I mean, just look at TV, movies, and video games.

My argument went something like this... "You can't use media as a teacher for young women. Media companies are going to put out media that makes them the MOST money. And, as it turns out, if they put a smoking hot woman in the movie, you can bet your ass that more guys will go see it..." (And, again to be even, the same goes for chick flicks. The Mr. Grey was quite a good looking guy.) And besides, men are subjected to similar ideas with sports. "Jocks are cool and nerds aren't." Although the effect is less severe for men. What are you going to do, tell media companies (some of the richest companies in the world) to make more "female friendly" movies? They'll laugh in your face. (Disney doesn't count.)

Her other argument that I won't comment on was this. From a young age, men are given the option to 1: go out and make money to support your family or 2: go out and make money and be single. Where as for women it's different. I'll try to paraphrase her words as best I can. "Girls are told that you can do whatever you want, BUT you have to be aware that if you want to have a family that's going to take a lot of time, and you should take that into consideration." I THINK I've represented her words appropriately here.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 04:21:19 pm by corrado33 »
 

Offline Rupunzell

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2015, 04:26:23 pm »
Historically, women dominated computer programming and maintaining them. ENIAC was one of the examples from WW-II. And no, They were NOT crossed-over from typist, they were the ones who made those early computers work. What did happen was women were eventually "moved" out of the computing industry by men. Say or believe what one might desire or want to believe, except these historical facts remain.
http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2011/researcher-reveals-how-“computer-geeks”-replaced-“computergirls”

Women of ENIAC:
http://www.witi.com/center/witimuseum/halloffame/298369/ENIAC-Programmers-Kathleen-McNulty,-Mauchly-Antonelli,-Jean-Jennings-Bartik,-Frances-Synder-Holber-Marlyn-Wescoff-Meltzer,-Frances-Bilas-Spence-and-Ruth-Lichterman-Teitelbaum/

Here is a quoted story from one FAE who worked at hewlett packard during their golden years about how the guy's treated women engineers (John Minck):
"I heard this first-hand story from Gail Sweeny, another SPD woman marketing engineer. Gail had also transferred to the European Marketing Center, after a distinguished period in SPD marketing and production. During one of her new product training tours for one of our SPD instruments, in Scotland, she was presenting her talk to a crowd of about 50 FEs. At one point, she hesitated, and a comment from the back of the room shocked her, "Not bad for a woman!" Mild laughter. She proceeded, and again, a little later, the same comment. It became a running joke, but she finished finally to applause.

As soon as I heard the story, but several years later, I was furious. I immediately wrote the T&M Executive V.P. of the time, and encouraged him to find who was the senior HP official at that training session, give him a chance to defend himself, and then demote him. I felt that actions like a demotion were the only way to make a point, and once the word gets around of what happened, and HP's intolerance for such behavior, the sooner things would change. Everyone knew that European cultural values were not kind to women, especially technical ones. To my disappointment, that V.P. never took any action, and I regret now that I didn't take the matter up higher in management.

I believe that later decades of HP found a more open atmosphere for women, although, in looking through the management ranks, even today, it is a disappointment to me. My observation has always been that I have seen what can happen when functional managers are given tough assignments. If an aggressive assignment was given, to add one woman manager per year, no excuses, believe me they would find a way to identify outstanding women, recruit and mentor them, and make them successful.

I am sorry I never had more management authority, because I would have put in more goals on results, no excuses. And I don't think that men's rights or opportunities would have been violated. It is just true, even today, that the high-tech business, from venture capital to the most far-out scientific research, is the domain of men. I believe this is because young woman are not recruited into science and math courses, in high schools. I do also believe that there is still something genetic in men, which makes such technology life work more interesting and challenging. Not for all men, and surely not for all women, which is why identifying and mentoring and recruiting of women is so vital."
http://www.hpmemoryproject.org/timeline/john_minck/inside_hp_03.htm#part_03_chapt_49

* Actress Hedy Lamarr (born Hedwig Eva Maria Kiesler) invented spread spectrum technology.
http://inventionconvention.com/americasinventor/dec97issue/section2.html

There is much more on the topic of women in electronics an tech. What is apparent even in this discussion, there are a few who already have their "ideas" on this topic and have made the choice to believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts and history. At the core, this is about primal-instinctive human behavior. Some might believe this is all good and fine, except more than a few of those primal-instinctive human behaviors and instincts are self-destructive for the future of humanity. The challenge is for humanity to mature and loose these self destructive primal-instinctive impulses and desires... which includes treating their opposite gender peers as equals. There are more than a few of my own gender related stories in tech that are purely gender discrimination. What has been noted and publicized is well known and very much real for women who work in tech.

Discrimination at it's core is much about tribalism and being divisive for the benefits of a few or a selected group.

Bernice



i went to Wellesley for a seminar on this. The picture was actually much more stark: computer science, when it started, had predominantly women students. As a matter of fact, most "computer programmers" then were women - crossed over from typists.

What they found out was that men are far more interested in new ways of doing things and women however in new ways of applying those new things. So some schools are offering separate men / women computer science classes and to teach them differently.

Now sure if it will make a sustained impact, however.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 04:32:02 pm by Rupunzell »
 

Offline corrado33

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2015, 05:27:07 pm »
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I believe this is because young woman are not recruited into science and math courses, in high schools. I do also believe that there is still something genetic in men, which makes such technology life work more interesting and challenging. Not for all men, and surely not for all women, which is why identifying and mentoring and recruiting of women is so vital.

While I agree with much of what's said above. I disagree with this. If this person is saying that there is some "gene" which makes men more interested in STEM, why the heck are we making an honest attempt to "recruit more women?" THIS, if anything, is sexist. If women are interested, they will come, why force people into something for which they're not as interested in.

Let me ask this question. In today's society, is it OK to ever admit that one sex is better at something than the other sex? Is it hard to believe that with all of the differences between men and women, that men will have some things that they are better at, and women will have some things that they are better at? (Hint: evolution plays a pretty large role in this answer.)
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2015, 07:55:01 pm »
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why the heck are we making an honest attempt to "recruit more women?"

They don't believe that each one of us is different. They essentially don't recognize areas where women are naturally more gifted than men.

That, my friend, is sexist.
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Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2015, 09:41:58 pm »
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Despite Pao's stellar performance reviews, she received second class treatment.

Well, jury deliberated, mostly against her and particularly on the discrimination question.

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Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2015, 11:53:50 pm »
We know there is a problem because women tell us they want to go into tech but find various barriers that only affect their gender in the way. I suppose they could all just be really shit programmers and rely on lying about this stuff to get ahead, but that seems unlikely since the things they complain about are easily observable.

I know that in many cases there is obvious discrimination, because of comments, or rather put downs, directly relating to being a woman. I deplore those.  Unfortunately making an objection evokes a typical aggressive male response (as witnessed in this comment thread).

However, in many cases I think the discrimination is perceived, it's may not even be real. Frequently the things women complain about happen to men too. e.g. I'll bet there are millions of men who are well qualified and get passed over, or even pushed out. Even some men feel uncomfortable in a room of 17 other men. It's common experience among men that their suggestions are ignored, or get overridden by more assertive men who are trying to impress but actually know little (aka "bullshitters"). And there are plenty of men who complain about not getting a pay raise, who are just bad at their job but think they are well above average.

Obviously in these cases men never ascribe the reason to discrimination, whereas women might assume it is.

While we are talking anecdotes, I've heard several women who say their female manager is a complete bitch. As also men who work for female managers... So I am pretty sure if we replaced the entire senior management with women, you wouldn't suddenly get a nice friendly workplace, but a lot of discrimination by women - for whatever reason.
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Offline marshallh

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2015, 02:01:09 am »
While we are talking anecdotes, I've heard several women who say their female manager is a complete bitch. As also men who work for female managers... So I am pretty sure if we replaced the entire senior management with women, you wouldn't suddenly get a nice friendly workplace, but a lot of discrimination by women - for whatever reason.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1168182/Catfights-handbags-tears-toilets-When-producer-launched-women-TV-company-thought-shed-kissed-goodbye-conflict-.html
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Online CatalinaWOW

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2015, 05:13:53 am »
Don't know that I have descriptions of what the optimum gender balance is, or how to get there, but have three anecdotes which may give some insight.

1.  During the 1980s I taught junior level EE classes at a local university as a side job.   Gender split was wide with perhaps 20-30% of the classes female.  Many of the women were there for the rich fishing grounds for their MRS degree.  Some would argue that that behavior had died by the 1980s, but I assure you that at least in my classes that was still going on.  The ones that weren't were universally at the top of the class.  So you had this weird distribution where the best students were always female, but most of the female students were average or worse.

2.  At the day job recruited those top women and others from other universities.  Over time most of those were lost to engineering.  Babies and families were the least important reason.  Leading two reasons were appalling treatment by peers and in some cases supervisors (don't care to document here, but I think most men would quit if treated the same way), and rapid advancement up and out of engineering (these women were really talented and ambitious).

3.  Now I have grand-daughters in the before school years.  Their engineer father and I are really motivated to get them interested in STEM type subjects as there are no grandsons, and that is what interests us.  In spite of intense efforts on both of our parts neither girl shows much interest.  They quickly understand things.  Love building simple candle/steam motorboats and electric motors and so on, but as soon as the activity ends it is back to dress up and princesses and dolls and ponies and all of that.  No questions or interest in doing more of the STEM stuff.  Don't know whether it is genetic, or if it is the pervasive influence of television and being like mom, but the inclination is real.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2015, 01:11:58 pm »
Complete political BS.

First of all, I don't know why girls have to be in stem. Each of us is different and what's important end of the day is that we do things we are good at and we want to do. I am not knowledgeable enough to prove or disprove that girls naturally share a competitive advantage or desire to be in stem.

Secondly, I do think that everyone, girls or boys, should be encourage to pursue their dreams, wherever they are. I see no reason girls cannot excel in stem. I also don't know one person who sets out actively to discourage hiring of ****qualified**** girls for stem positions.

It is entirely possible and in my view likely that girls gravitated towards non-stem fields for their other priorities.

Dreaming up superficial reasons (like fandom) to attract people who otherwise wouldn't have gotten into a field is 1) attracking the wrong people; and 2) ruining a life that otherwise could have flourished in some other fields.

Despite all the encouragement for girls to become electronics engineers, the same appallingly low ratio of female to male electronics engineers exists now as there was 40 years ago. I have worked with probably a 1,000 engineers over the years and in that mix there were only 3 hands-on electronics engineers. Why did we never see women or teenage girls buy op amps and power transistors from the local surplus or electronics store to build their own amplifiers in the 1970's and 80's? The bra-burning feminist militia would like to blame men for the lack of women in electronics engineering but that is only a very poor excuse.

I risk being imprisoned by the political correctness police here, but just maybe men's brains are better wired for electronics engineering :wtf:. It is just a very politically incorrect theory, but it might be true.

In any case, if I hire someone as an electronics engineer or technician I disregard race, sex, or religion. I am only interested in the three A's:

1. Aptitude
2. Attitude
3. Ability

Today, our state government announced a requirement for 50% females to be on government boards and court positions, as a priority over ability. In my opinion, the job should go to whoever is the best candidate, irrespective of gender. Ironically, the state bans males from breast screening women.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2015, 03:27:04 pm »
Quote
Ironically, the state bans males from breast screening women.

Yeah. Also, why should women have the monopoly on child birthing? Cannot the state mandate that 50% of the birth be done by men?

:)
================================
https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 

Offline ConKbot

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2015, 04:04:49 pm »

Applies to everyone. That's all that's needed, rather than schemes and plans and buzzwords
 

Offline electr_peter

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2015, 08:17:25 pm »
The fact that this article is headlined with words like catfight and and handbags should tell you something about how the Daily Fail likes to portray things like this.
If anything, it proves that there is still a big problem.
I don't agree with above statement. Fight/conflict of two men could be called dogfight/cockfight/etc. depending on local tradition. Also, some reference to Johnsons (ahem) could be made. All it shows, if anything, that this media channel likes flashy stories and reflects terminology used by society today.

The reasons of gender disparity in specific areas are complicated and cannot be summarised by saying that all this happens mostly because of women discrimination.
Fixed percentage programs are discriminatory by definition. There can be specific programs directed to help girls get into some specific field with help of additional schooling etc by political will. But when it gets to fixed percentage rules or rules in schools that protect only girls, that is discrimination against boys using reasoning: "girls were discriminated in the past and have only XX% positions so boys will be pushed to the side today to get 50-50%". Screw that!
 


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