Author Topic: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?  (Read 117748 times)

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Offline Zero999

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2015, 08:37:06 pm »
Don't know that I have descriptions of what the optimum gender balance is, or how to get there, but have three anecdotes which may give some insight.

1.  During the 1980s I taught junior level EE classes at a local university as a side job.   Gender split was wide with perhaps 20-30% of the classes female.  Many of the women were there for the rich fishing grounds for their MRS degree.  Some would argue that that behavior had died by the 1980s, but I assure you that at least in my classes that was still going on.  The ones that weren't were universally at the top of the class.  So you had this weird distribution where the best students were always female, but most of the female students were average or worse.

2.  At the day job recruited those top women and others from other universities.  Over time most of those were lost to engineering.  Babies and families were the least important reason.  Leading two reasons were appalling treatment by peers and in some cases supervisors (don't care to document here, but I think most men would quit if treated the same way), and rapid advancement up and out of engineering (these women were really talented and ambitious).

3.  Now I have grand-daughters in the before school years.  Their engineer father and I are really motivated to get them interested in STEM type subjects as there are no grandsons, and that is what interests us.  In spite of intense efforts on both of our parts neither girl shows much interest.  They quickly understand things.  Love building simple candle/steam motorboats and electric motors and so on, but as soon as the activity ends it is back to dress up and princesses and dolls and ponies and all of that.  No questions or interest in doing more of the STEM stuff.  Don't know whether it is genetic, or if it is the pervasive influence of television and being like mom, but the inclination is real.
I agree with you that discrimination exists but I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of female interest in engineering is partly genetic. The same is probably true when it comes to the pay gap.

Women and men are physically different due to genetics so why is it so wrong that they could be psychologically different too?

Then there generalisations and exceptions, such as men are normally physically stronger and taller than women but there are plenty of examples of women who are taller or stronger than the majority of men.

The problem is psychology is influenced by society, so proving whether such a gender difference is genetic or not, is much more complicated.

It's probably true to say that men are more aggressive than women, which is why they dominate leadership positions.

Women, due to their physiology, will always have a greater role in childcare, which will make career progression more difficult for them, regardless of how much society does to stop this. This isn't sexist. It's just the way the human species has evolved, whether we see it as fair or otherwise.

 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2015, 08:38:08 pm »
One explanation for the lack of women in certain high risk fields (combat, engineering, or anything leading edge -> with less understanding -> more potential for unknown risks) is biological. Females are far more important to the survivals of any species -> men are more expendable from that perspective.

Evolution would dictate that over a long period of time, only such species that pursued such a strategy would survive to the point of challenging such a strategy.
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2015, 10:44:54 pm »
One explanation for the lack of women in certain high risk fields (combat, engineering, or anything leading edge -> with less understanding -> more potential for unknown risks) is biological. Females are far more important to the survivals of any species -> men are more expendable from that perspective.

Evolution would dictate that over a long period of time, only such species that pursued such a strategy would survive to the point of challenging such a strategy.
Lets not forget that being female also has its physical advantages, a better sense of smell and not being so muscular and physically smaller has an advantage: lower energy requirements and fat is more energy dense than protein so women are better adapted to survive famine than men are.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2015, 11:59:52 pm »
Lets not forget that being female also has its physical advantages

Around here women pay less for life insurance but nobody complains about. They also don't need to run as fast to win an Olympic medal and that's also OK. The grievance industry is very one sided.

I say, treat people equally and let the chips fall as they may.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2015, 01:12:21 pm »
Lets not forget that being female also has its physical advantages

Around here women pay less for life insurance but nobody complains about. They also don't need to run as fast to win an Olympic medal and that's also OK. The grievance industry is very one sided.

I say, treat people equally and let the chips fall as they may.
Here in the UK, women used to get cheaper car insurance because they generally make fewer claims than men do, until the EU stuck their nose in and ruled it as discrimination. The only people who benefited were the insurance companies who simply increased premiums for women to make them in-line with men.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2015, 06:34:32 pm »
I agree with you that discrimination exists but I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of female interest in engineering is partly genetic. The same is probably true when it comes to the pay gap.

Did you even watch the video? It addresses those points directly. You are incorrect.
No I did not watch the entire video. I lost interest fairly quickly.  Not only is it nearly an hour long but it's obviously biased. Perhaps one day I'll watch the whole thing.

There is evidence to suggest genetics play a role. A classic example is great apes, even when in captivity show different interests in human toys, with females being more interested in dolls and males in trucks.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/101220-chimpanzees-play-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/

No doubt there is real discrimination but ignoring the possibility that some of this is genetic is foolish.
 

Offline corrado33

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2015, 11:28:10 pm »
Ok. I've watched half the video.

I took notes.
Here are my comments, in order.

  • She says she wants to get women more interested in, not better at STEM. I think the latter should be focused on.
  • People berated me for saying these people are looking for 50%, saying that's not the true goal. Well, have YOU watched this video. She made multiple comments about some fields being close to parity. Sounds like her goal to me...
  • "In 4th grade 6#% of girls are interested in SCIENCE. First off, she said "science" not "computer science," so I'm a bit confused. Secondly, you can make a 4th grader interested in ANYTHING, especially if you give an interesting talk right before...
  • "Girls don't belong" Where is this coming from? Honestly, I want to know. Besides the sexist times of the 60s - 80s, who today is saying that girls don't belong?
  • "In the 1950s, 30-50% of programmers were women because it was seen as women's work." So even WHEN programming was seen as women's work, it was STILL dominated by men.
  • She talks about how men did really well in CS and women don't have role models. So, what you're saying is that men did really well (Jobs, Gates) and now women are afraid to work in those fields? If that were true, women wouldn't be in a lot of fields...
  • More on Role models. She asked girls from tumblr if they could name a role  model in STEM. Most of them named men (75% ish?). But out of those who named women, there were 15 different women named. There were only 30 different men named. I'd say that's a damn good percentage considering that 93% of nobel prize winners are men. (Simple example.) Turns out, the majority of famous people in STEM ARE FREAKING MEN.
  • She keeps saying that we're "losing half the population of innovators" Where? Where are we losing them? I mean, even today after the CS "crash" there are still 28% of women in CS. So, she may want to revise her "half the population" number... And besides, that's a bullshit statistic.
  • She asked the girls "what are things that deter you from STEM fields" Yet NOTHING they mentioned had ANYTHING to do with their SEX. Those SAME things are going to deter boys just as much. And what she DID site as was harmful to girls, it was down to their PERSONALITIES and LEARNING TECHNIQUES. "Girls learn better in groups." So much for the "girls are equal to boys" thing...
  • Lastly, she asked a VERY vague question of "have you ever been dissuaded from doing anything in STEM. 51% of them said yes. No shit sherlock. Turns out geeks are made fun of in middle/high school. This goes for guys as well. This has NOTHING to do with sex. In fact, girls in STEM fields are revered by young boys...It was COOL for a girl to be in my computer science classes, but DORKY for me. Not just perceived cool by fellow CS people, but by the jocks as well. I would know, I was one.

So there, I've watched half the video. I'll watch the other half in the future and make another list then. All I see right now are bullshit statistics based on a bullshit "survey" that she herself conducted on as little as ~400 girls. Turns out, you don't have to talk to a lot of people to have a survey that "represents" 1,000,000 people. Sorry, you'll have to do better to convince me. Am I being harsh, yes. However, people presenting on things where they only show ONE SIDE of the story piss me off. They get everyone else riled up to support their cause for the wrong reasons. It's BULLSHIT.

Honestly, if you want to combat sexism in higher level fields. You should probably start attacking religions who still believe that women belong at home in the kitchen.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2015, 11:35:23 pm »
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I've watched half the video.

You take it too seriously.

The video isn't about motivating girls into STEM. It is about motivating people to fund a fight to get girls into STEM.

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In fact, girls in STEM fields are revered by young boys.

And if you watch HR folks on recruiting missions. They drool literally when they see girls. Sex is a big advantage there.

The same with minority candidates.
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Offline Tallie

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2015, 11:44:51 pm »
She talks about how men did really well in CS and women don't have role models.
Why can't women have male role models?
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #59 on: March 30, 2015, 12:06:16 am »
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Why can't women have male role models?

Because it totally defeats feminism, :)

Look, if one can only identify with / by one's sex, that person is either (extremely) insecure, or a sexist.
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Offline Stonent

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2015, 01:33:39 am »
Complete political BS.
First of all, I don't know why girls have to be in stem.
Dumb... as usual...  :palm:
To quote Martin Luther King: A mind is a terrible thing to waste

Regarding science: the money is in applying science which is called engineering. Fortunately more people are needed to apply science than to do scientific research.

"MLK and myself are frequently subject to being misquoted on the internet." - Thomas Jefferson 1780

Actually it was Arthur Fletcher who coined that phrase.
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Offline tom66

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2015, 09:51:18 am »
All that shows is that primitive societies that are surrounded by humans and human culture have some gender bias. I don't think we should be using that as an excuse.

Are you suggesting that apes emulate human role models because they are surrounded by gender bias? That would be... interesting. I'm not sure if you're serious or not.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2015, 11:29:16 am »
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Because you missed it:

For a one-sided talk by an advocate that cannot be verified, you would expect that.

if you believe it 100%, well, there is a bridge for sale.
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Offline tom66

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2015, 11:54:46 am »
This reeks of the stupid "Ban Bossy" campaign,van attempt to stop others calling girls "bossy" and supposedly affecting the numbers of girls who achieve leadership positions (CEO, management, etc.) But, if you really are put off simply by the word "bossy", or any similar such word (male or female - it's not important), are you truly fit for a leadership position?
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2015, 12:13:43 pm »
Because you missed it:

One person's experience of being bullied because they're different, doesn't do anything to disprove the lack of female interest in STEM is partly down to genetics.

People get bullied because they're different, for whatever reason. Some boys are interested in girls things and they get bullied because of it. The thing is getting upset because people say nasty things will only show them you're vulnerable and bullies love an easy target.

Now she feels uncomfortable being the only women in a room full of men because of how she's been treated in the past. This will show in her body language and attitude towards men which will negatively affect working relationships. She will be vulnerable not because she's a woman but because she's anxious and defensive around men.

There are female engineers where I work and they don't seem to get any problems from men. Some of them are pretty hot too but you can't even say that without being labelled as sexist.  I shall have to ask them if they've been bullied before for being interested in engineering.
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2015, 12:16:18 pm »
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Because you missed it:

For a one-sided talk by an advocate that cannot be verified, you would expect that.

if you believe it 100%, well, there is a bridge for sale.

Maybe I'll wait for the Thundef00t version.

I remember overhearing a conversation between a male and female assembly line worker one time. Apparently he had asked her why she was working on an assembly line as you don't see as many women doing it. And the gist of the answer was she wanted to get a man's pay so she works a man's job.
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Offline rolycat

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2015, 12:59:43 pm »
There is evidence to suggest genetics play a role. A classic example is great apes, even when in captivity show different interests in human toys, with females being more interested in dolls and males in trucks.

All that shows is that primitive societies that are surrounded by humans and human culture have some gender bias. I don't think we should be using that as an excuse.

If you actually read the National Geographic article linked to by Hero999, it makes it clear that the chimpanzees were observed in the wild playing with sticks, and had no contact with human culture. The captive monkeys were similarly raised outdoors by their parents and had not been socialized at all.

The original 2002 experiment has been repeated several times, and in each case male and female monkeys showed pronounced gender-based preferences in the nature of the toys they chose. The significance of those preferences is another question.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2015, 01:54:55 pm »
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Despite Pao's stellar performance reviews, she received second class treatment.

there is an interesting article on Pao's case in Fortune today.

It is always worth listening to both sides of a story to fully appreciate it.
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Offline corrado33

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2015, 02:54:30 pm »
She was using it as an example of how some fields traditionally thought of as being male dominated have now reached parity, despite many of the same claims (e.g. women are not interested due to genetics) being made about them.
Agreed, but the way she talked about it made it seem like that was her goal. That's all.

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So you are saying that there is something special about CS that sets it apart from other sciences? In any case, you missed the point. She was saying that something changes between the 4th and 8th grades, and presented hard stats that demonstrate that. I note that you don't refute that claim either. Clearly there is some social factor at work, and sure enough she asked some other questions to find out what that factor is and came up with an answer.

Yes I would say CS is significantly different than other hard sciences. Obviously the statistics say so. And yes, I would say a hell of a lot happens between 4th grade and 8th grade for girls. It's called puberty. There are a LOT of things going on in a girls life during 8th grade especially. Are you honestly going to trust what a 4th grader says they want to do or are interested in? When I was in 4th grade I wanted to be a fireman or professional baseball player like Cal Ripken. ... You grow up, your priorities change, and you make better decisions. When is that factored into these statistics?

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"Girls don't belong" Where is this coming from?

Girls.
So this stigma that "girls don't belong" is created by girls, advocated against by girls, and is being attempted to be solved by... girls. This seems like an internal problem created by girls themselves emotionally, not something that needs to be solved socially.

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You weren't paying attention. The 80s was the peak of inclusiveness, it went downhill from there. Again, she had clear statistical evidence of that. 35% of CS degrees went to women in 1985, today it is just 18%. The numbers halved.
Agreed. However, statistical evidence is never "clear." You can make statistics say pretty much whatever you want if you ignore the right variables. What she hasn't looked at is what's happened between 85 and now. Have there been more opportunities for women elsewhere? (I'd say the answer to that question is yes.)

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Role models for children are very important. There is a lot of research that shows that. It's the reason why there are so many incentives for men to go into primary school teaching in the UK where there is a dire lack of male role models for 4-8 year olds.

There was a funny moment a few years ago on an Adafruit show and tell hangout where a young girl asked if boys did electronics or if it was only girls. Kids look at the role models they are exposed to and assume that is the way the world is, and Adafruit being mostly female (at least on the public facing side) that's the impression she got. Having female role models in STEM helps young girls and boys see that STEM isn't just for one gender. It's the same with nurses, if boys perceive it as a female profession they are less interested in it.

This is interesting but here's my problem. You can't artificially glorify people in any position if they haven't done anything to deserve it. Don't take this as me saying that women haven't done anything to get recognized. However, the majority of people at the top of the CS field are men, therefore the majority of people doing the really cool things are men. This is synonymous with a 98% white college having 1 white male, 1 asian female, and 1 black female and 1 black male on their advertisement cover. It's dishonest. You can't artificially create role models. The way it would be done would be to artificially put women in positions where they're going to get recognized, or preferentially recognize women in these fields, and that's sexist. It's a chicken or the egg problem. To have more female role models, one has to have more girls interested in those fields. For girls to be interested in those fields, there must be more female role models. Honestly, I think one way to solve this would be to have STEM magazines targeted at girls. Or have STEM articles in COSMO/other girly magazines. The chemistry of makeup or something similar. Sure, some may call that sexist, but if gets young girls interested in chemistry, doesn't that solve the problem? The boys already have lots of magazines with plenty of role models in them.


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What evidence do you have that it is "bullshit"? In any case, tech companies are crying out for more skilled staff. Intel is investing $300M into tapping that under-utilized resource. Any modern country needs a lot of highly skilled workers.
The statistic is bullshit because it ignores so many things. She says we're "losing" these women because we're not letting them into these fields, but that's NOT true. Currently, they are still CHOOSING not to be part of these fields. The reasons for that are what we're arguing about, but that fact is still true. And it's a bullshit statistic because if (I forget the actual number) 25% of women are already in CS (let's not forget about the 40+% in other STEM fields) then the number is actually far less than 25% of the population that we're "losing." 50% /= 25%. Again, it's a bullshit statistic meant to draw attention.

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Man, you really weren't paying attention, were you? How do the experiences she read out where girls felt excluded because of their gender or were flat out told that CS wasn't for females not to with with their sex?

I said this in my previous quick post, but I haven't gotten to the parts that you mentioned in your next post yet. I was talking about the slide at 14:11.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 03:01:39 pm by corrado33 »
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2015, 03:38:27 pm »
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I said this in my previous quick post

I think you will find it futile trying to reason with mojo - you have a far better chance to reason with a donkey.

Something many of us have figured out. Save your energy on something more productive.
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Offline corrado33

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2015, 03:47:20 pm »
Let me respond to the quotes from the girls that she posted (and moho mentioned above.) I'll include timestamps this time.

21:37 "Need to let the boys answer".
 I got this too in middle school/high school. I ALWAYS tried to answer and was told MULTIPLE time by my teachers in private that I need to let other people answer sometimes. How do we know she wasn't in a class full of boys and the teacher was just generalizing?

22:20 "Hiding your intelligence if you want a boyfriend."
While this sucks, in high school, boys are immature. The ones that can't handle you being smarter than them won't like you. While this sucks, young boys are immature, and what her guidance counselor told her was probably true. This is NOT true for all boys though. I dated girls smarter than me.

23:16 "Bullied for not liking girly things."
No shit. Boys would also be bullied for not liking "manly" things. While this IS  a problem it IS NOT only a problem for young women. So if you're trying to present this dichotomy for how boys and girls are being treated, this quote is NOT helping your point.

23:33 "Either ignored by the boys or overwhelmed while playing a game."
Again, no shit. If you're not good at it, people are going to ignore you or make fun of you. Again, not JUST a problem for girls. Did the girl want to be babied and have the boys play easy with her until she got better? THAT'S sexist, and definitely not how online games work.

23:43 "Was told by boys in engineering that I'm not attractive."
What if that girl WASN'T attractive? I'm sorry, it's mean, but some people are NOT attractive. And besides, this is NOT true. If a girl is attractive, AND she's in STEM... it makes her even MORE attractive to someone like me, also in STEM. I know it's mean, but everyone has standards.

24:12 "Was made fun of for liking nerdy things."
Oh god. Nerds getting made fun of... the horror... Again, this happens to GUYS just as much. Do you know how much I was made fun of for being a nerd who played sports? I got it from both ends... Nerds get made fun of. If you can't deal with it, then you have a problem. In life you have to learn to deal with people who don't like you and who don't like what you do.

24:14 "I've been talked down to for being a girl."
Was she perceiving this, or was it actually true? We've already established that girls and boys perceive things differently. Was the person talking to her trying to be malicious or was it a boy who just didn't realize? If it's the ladder, then this quote means nothing.

24:34 "Been told to try other things besides STEM."
Like WHAT? Sports? This means NOTHING without context.

24:48 "Told not to go into STEM even by parents"
Maybe their parents knew it was extremely hard and saw their daughter was better at something else? Again, context. There's SO many different ways this could be taken. Again, this means nothing.

24:55 "Made fun of in online games"
You're made fun of in online games? The HORROR! EVERYONE is made fun of in online games. Boys are called girls, girls are called boys. It happens. Online games are a hostile place. Deal with it or don't play.

25:15 "More gaming stuff."
Gaming, again. Same as above. Also GAMING /= STEM.

25:34 "Made fun of specifically for being a girl."
What specifically? This statement is extremely general and again, means nothing without context.

Yes, many of these are "what if " scenarios, but if you're going to post quotes, at least make them non ambiguous in their meaning.

Yes, I ignored a few that actually were sexist. But the vast majority were not, or were ambiguous.

What these quotes tell me is the boys are better at taking/ignoring criticism. This is an emotional problem, not a social one. And you know what, STEM fields are FULL of criticism (Peer reviewed papers anyone?). If you can't take it, you shouldn't be in STEM fields.

If you baby women into these fields, what you end up with are women who feel entitled and can "do no wrong." They can't take criticism, they can't handle being told that they're wrong. This is not what science is about. If you can't handle someone telling you that "You're stupid for not seeing this." then you're going to have a hard time in STEM. How do I know this? I deal with multiple of these women every day in my lab, which is full of women, besides me.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 04:00:24 pm by corrado33 »
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2015, 03:50:21 pm »
One of the interesting things about Jessica McDonald's presentation was the way it revealed her own gender-based preferences. She and most of the girls she questioned were less interested in technology as an end in itself, and more as an enabling mechanism for interaction through social or artistic media.

A revealing example was her slide showing how many girls on Tumblr have knowledge of programming. The "programming languages" in which the majority of girls indicated proficiency were HTML and CSS, which are not programming languages at all but markup languages - they are about presentation rather than function. She went on to emphasize that presentation was their motivation for learning.

She specifically stated that women are more interested in aesthetics and appearance, and she was "not super interested" in "I built this thing out of vacuum tubes, I built a weather station", but preferred interactive art.

All of which suggests that there is always likely to be some gender bias in technology (although not necessarily in science) career choice, because men are drawn to gadgets and machinery in a way which most women aren't. Women tend to want their gadgets to have a purpose, and while the female programmers I have met were just as capable as their male counterparts they were rarely as obsessive.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #72 on: March 30, 2015, 04:01:08 pm »
Women tend to want their gadgets to have a purpose, and while the female programmers I have met were just as capable as their male counterparts they were rarely as obsessive.

That's a good point, regardless of gender, A 8 to 5 job attitude will only get you only that far professionally.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #73 on: March 30, 2015, 04:04:50 pm »
For a one-sided talk by an advocate that cannot be verified, you would expect that.

if you believe it 100%, well, there is a bridge for sale.

This is the other classic misogynist tactic: assume all women are liars and frauds, and/or demand an unreasonable standard of evidence before modifying behaviour.

You are making things up again.
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #74 on: March 30, 2015, 04:15:32 pm »
She specifically stated that women are more interested in aesthetics and appearance, and she was "not super interested" in "I built this thing out of vacuum tubes, I built a weather station", but preferred interactive art.

Have you seen Adafruit? A lot of their gear is aimed at interactive art and wearables. The Arduino, which is very popular, is designed for artists. Did not know that many software applications have a GUI these days?

I'm not super interesting in Windows API calls either, but I learn about them as a means to an end so I can do the stuff that does interest me. My general lack of interest is not a reason to exclude me from writing Windows apps.
And precisely where do I suggest either that presentation is unimportant or that women should be excluded from doing anything?

You really need to remove that giant chip from your shoulder before jumping onto the keyboard.
 


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