Author Topic: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?  (Read 117752 times)

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Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #75 on: March 30, 2015, 04:21:05 pm »
I have that attitude and I do okay. I'm not one of these idiots who works himself to death just to get ahead.

Looks like you spend a lot of time in this technical forum. That's not a 8 to 5 attitude to technology.

Obsession (aka passion, fire-in-the-belly) and after hours activities are excellent ways to learn and gain experience and and are often reflected in job performance.

I work to live, not live to work. I know lots of other men who are like that, particularly ones with young families. If a company evaluates employees by how bad their work/life balance is then it's a terrible company.

That's your choice, but if others are willing to put more effort don't complain if they get ahead.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #76 on: March 30, 2015, 04:30:43 pm »
For a one-sided talk by an advocate that cannot be verified, you would expect that.

if you believe it 100%, well, there is a bridge for sale.

This is the other classic misogynist tactic: assume all women are liars and frauds, and/or demand an unreasonable standard of evidence before modifying behaviour.

How did calling YOU a liar and fraud get translated into calling ALL WOMEN liars and frauds? Unless YOU think YOU are ALL WOMEN.

That's would be a huge risk to humanity's survival, :)
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Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #77 on: March 30, 2015, 04:32:47 pm »
Quote
I'm not one of these idiots who works himself to death just to get ahead.

Maybe you should take on some of the female sensibility advises you so insist on giving to others: just because others have an approach to live that's different to yours doesn't make them idiots.

In reality, the reverse is more likely true.
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Offline corrado33

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2015, 04:35:29 pm »
Guys. Moho is one of the few arguing the other side of the argument here.

I would like not to scare them away because I, for one, am interested in what they have to say.

Please cease with the name calling and insults, from both sides.
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2015, 05:01:01 pm »
Guys. Moho is one of the few arguing the other side of the argument here.

I would like not to scare them away because I, for one, am interested in what they have to say.
Is it not possible to contribute to this discussion without taking sides?
 

Offline Tallie

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2015, 06:01:23 pm »


I find this funny... if the barometer for the amount of attention you're receiving exists within a boolean state, maybe you're the problem.
 

Offline Tallie

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #81 on: March 30, 2015, 07:29:01 pm »
I would like not to scare them away because I, for one, am interested in what they have to say.

Thanks. I really can't understand why so many guys have this attitude where they can't accept that there is any problem at all. I'm not sure what evidence would ever convince them. I can only assume they were primed somehow...

Unfortunately the internet is full of people like that.
Unfortunately, not everyone shares my point of view...
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #82 on: March 30, 2015, 07:37:05 pm »
Quote
I really can't understand why so many guys have this attitude where they can't accept that there is any problem at all.

Unfortunately the internet is full of people like that.

So it is our fault that you failed to understand us? It is also our fault that you failed to do well on your job or at home? It is our fault that you got a speeding ticket last week? ....

What will it be YOUR fault that you didn't excel?
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #83 on: March 30, 2015, 07:43:42 pm »
Let me respond to the quotes from the girls that she posted (and moho mentioned above.) I'll include timestamps this time.
Thank you for posting this.

I did ask one of my female colleagues why she got into engineering and if she ever felt discriminated against. She started as an electrician's assistant working with lots of men on a building site where she did receive some sexist comments but she said "one just has to learn to stick up for themselves and deal with it". After that she went to college and from then onwards didn't feel as though she was discriminated against because she's female, most likely because if she ever did, she stood up for herself and stopped it before it started.

I'll ask someone else tomorrow.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #84 on: March 30, 2015, 07:48:00 pm »
Quote from: mojo-chan link=topic=45029.msg640930#msg6I will complain, ...
[/quote

Of course you will. Pulling others down is a sure way to achieve equality.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #85 on: March 30, 2015, 07:58:49 pm »
The series 'Mad Men' presents an interesting view on women entering in a typical men's world.
I'm finding this topic an interesting subject because I'm all for creating a work atmosphere where everyone feels 'at home' and therefore can be as productive as they can. Appearantly that is still not something which comes naturally. IMHO people should not need to fight for acceptance or put up with bullying. Needing to 'put up with it' shouldn't be necessary.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Tallie

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #86 on: March 30, 2015, 09:33:12 pm »
The series 'Mad Men' presents an interesting view on women entering in a typical men's world.
I'm finding this topic an interesting subject because I'm all for creating a work atmosphere where everyone feels 'at home' and therefore can be as productive as they can. Appearantly that is still not something which comes naturally. IMHO people should not need to fight for acceptance or put up with bullying. Needing to 'put up with it' shouldn't be necessary.
Everyone has to put up with bullshit, there's equality in that...
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #87 on: March 30, 2015, 09:51:27 pm »
Quote
Everyone has to put up with bullshit, there's equality in that...

They are asking to be free of humanity's shortcomings.

The only way to achieve that is to be short of humanity.
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Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #88 on: March 30, 2015, 11:00:57 pm »
Quote
What I can't understand is ...

Blahblahblah and more blahblahblah...

But you still haven't answered the simple question:

Quote
So it is our fault that you failed to understand us?
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Offline corrado33

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #89 on: March 30, 2015, 11:07:01 pm »
I think there IS a problem, but so far really the only solutions proposed or talked about are "change the boys." I think THAT'S what I have a problem with. I think it's the girls who need to change if they want to feel more "accepted" in these fields. Like someone posted above, once they learn to stick up for themselves, then things are fine.

If a man joins a typically female dominated field and acts like a typical man/jerk, he'll get run out of town by all of the girls. Therefore HE has to change. Why is it opposite when girls are trying to get back into these male dominated fields?

I particularly have a problem with this video because of HOW it presents the evidence. It relies on bad statistics and misinformation/personal anecdotes. As a scientist, this type of informational is comical for how bad it is. That's why this video bothers me. It's ill-informed people preaching to even more ill-informed people about something that requires much more thorough thought.

But hey, that's the internet for you. I mean hell, look at facebook. "Miracle eye drops can make you see in the dark." (Let's not mention if you get ANY sort of light on your eye you will probably have damaged eyesight for the rest of your life.)

This is why I don't like some parts of the internet. It gives people a forum to present arguments unopposed, which is a great way to spread misinformation.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #90 on: March 30, 2015, 11:21:04 pm »
The series 'Mad Men' presents an interesting view on women entering in a typical men's world.
I'm finding this topic an interesting subject because I'm all for creating a work atmosphere where everyone feels 'at home' and therefore can be as productive as they can. Appearantly that is still not something which comes naturally. IMHO people should not need to fight for acceptance or put up with bullying. Needing to 'put up with it' shouldn't be necessary.
Everyone has to put up with bullshit, there's equality in that...
Why did you come up with bullshit?  :palm: I'm writing about bullying... That is something completely different.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Tallie

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #91 on: March 31, 2015, 12:21:02 am »
The series 'Mad Men' presents an interesting view on women entering in a typical men's world.
I'm finding this topic an interesting subject because I'm all for creating a work atmosphere where everyone feels 'at home' and therefore can be as productive as they can. Appearantly that is still not something which comes naturally. IMHO people should not need to fight for acceptance or put up with bullying. Needing to 'put up with it' shouldn't be necessary.
Everyone has to put up with bullshit, there's equality in that...
Why did you come up with bullshit?  :palm: I'm writing about bullying... That is something completely different.
I don't know why I reply to threads like this... it's tantamount to debating religion. You aren't gonna change my mind, I'm not gonna change yours, and everyone walks away angry.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #92 on: March 31, 2015, 12:49:31 am »
NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.
If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.
An optional additional explanation is:
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 05:57:42 am by Simon »
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #93 on: March 31, 2015, 01:12:21 am »
The mad dogs are possibly the source of the problem.

The abhorrent behavior I referenced in earlier anecdotes was apparently perpetrated by a very small percentage of the staff.  It was done in secrecy, and in most cases no one was identified.  Often the women involved did not care to confront it, they just left.  It was discovered during exit interviews, or through other channels long after the fact.  Even when a woman reported the behavior, we didn't have enough forensic skills to track down the responsible party.  In rare cases I can identify a perp because the behavior stopped occurring when a particular individual left the job.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #94 on: March 31, 2015, 01:20:51 am »
The series 'Mad Men' presents an interesting view on women entering in a typical men's world.
I'm finding this topic an interesting subject because I'm all for creating a work atmosphere where everyone feels 'at home' and therefore can be as productive as they can. Appearantly that is still not something which comes naturally. IMHO people should not need to fight for acceptance or put up with bullying. Needing to 'put up with it' shouldn't be necessary.

It shouldn't be necessary, but unfortunately it often is, because, well, humans are humans, and some of then are not nice and/or are simply not capable of treating all people equally.
And it's not just about gender, that's a drop in the bucket, you can get the same or worse discrimination/harassment/non-acceptance in engineering and almost any other industry etc for:
- race
- religion
- height
- sexuality
- political bent
- physical disability
- mental disability
- personal hygiene
- whether you drink or smoke
- choice of clothes
- your hair style
- what qualifications you have or don't have
- where you got those qualifications
- how tactful you are
- how proactive you are or aren't
- the way you talk
- your accent

and I could probably list dozens more if I thought about it.
The hard core feminists seem to forget this, and think it's all just about gender  ::)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 01:24:58 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline Rupunzell

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #95 on: March 31, 2015, 06:06:05 am »
At the root of this discussion is much about gaining resources and status in the search for "happiness." Discrimination is about oppressing or assure dis-infrancising a lesser group to gain a bigger slice of the pie, nothing more, nothing less.

Another commonly held belief is working harder alone will gain wealth, social status and all that. In reality many human societies simply do not work this way at all. Connections, relationships and who one might know or associate with, access to funding and economic-social entitlements has much to do with where any one particular individual or group might end up.

*One can work as hard as they possibly could and never have the economic might as a banker-investor with trillions of dollars at their beckon-call. Simply put, this is why the wealth stays wealthy if they understand the dynamics of how to use and leverage their wealth.. and with wealth comes social status, political influence and power over others-society-culture.

These are just a few realities of human nature, it is a product of human evolution, primal-instinctive drives that lives on tho this day.

Motivated and capable technical folks go off to start companies where possible and not allow themselves to be under the thumb of banker-investor-bean counters, but are left to answer to market demands and expectations. Marketing has much to do with creating a brand identity brand image and selling appeal to get an audience to spend their $.

In the ideal free market world, it would be gender blind and free of gender bias. In the current market reality, this simply is not true for a host of reasons.

http://learningfromexperiencelarryhirschhorn.blogspot.com/2014/12/women-in-high-tech-disappointments-for.html



Bernice



It shouldn't be necessary, but unfortunately it often is, because, well, humans are humans, and some of then are not nice and/or are simply not capable of treating all people equally.
And it's not just about gender, that's a drop in the bucket, you can get the same or worse discrimination/harassment/non-acceptance in engineering and almost any other industry etc for:
- race
- religion
- height
- sexuality
- political bent
- physical disability
- mental disability
- personal hygiene
- whether you drink or smoke
- choice of clothes
- your hair style
- what qualifications you have or don't have
- where you got those qualifications
- how tactful you are
- how proactive you are or aren't
- the way you talk
- your accent

and I could probably list dozens more if I thought about it.
The hard core feminists seem to forget this, and think it's all just about gender  ::)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 06:23:50 am by Rupunzell »
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #96 on: March 31, 2015, 07:28:44 am »
Because you missed it:
...


I could go on...

That one doesn't make sense, unless her parents were both male, which I have no problems with.
 

Offline helius

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #97 on: March 31, 2015, 08:55:53 am »
Can Fem-Dom Fix Tech's "Gender Gap"?
I could tell you, but this ball gag is going to make it sound all garbled.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #98 on: March 31, 2015, 11:05:24 am »
Quote
Seems likely that her parents had the same opinion

Speculations on top of speculations.
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Offline zapta

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Re: Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?
« Reply #99 on: March 31, 2015, 01:25:05 pm »
Yet another thread were the  busybodies tell others how they should live there lives.  It's an obsession.
 


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