Author Topic: Cashless Australia  (Read 26419 times)

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Offline cdevTopic starter

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2021, 04:17:45 am »
Quote
How many people currently have stacks of cash on hand? If banks go out now, nobody would have access to the money anyway.

All those arguments are very tired and weak.
In a cashless society one failure and your screwed,for example the supermarkets cant  take cards,as has happened several times in the uk, no way to buy your shopping,however with the cash machines still working your able to get cash to pay for your goods

whenevr i go into sin city i pick up sin cash.the dirtiest money i cand find. straight from the nether regions.it smellls nastyi

I'm just joking
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Offline HwAoRrDk

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2021, 04:19:42 am »
I am against moves to go cashless, for one major reason that can be expressed in a single word: disenfranchisement.

Even in here in the 21st century, in first-world countries, there are still significant proportions of the population that have no access to electronic payment methods or even banking facilities full stop. Those with very bad credit, immigrants, the homeless, etc. Take away their ability to trade with cash and you take away the ability for them to live their lives independently.

I find it usually surprises people that the law here in the UK only says that legal tender cannot be refused in the settlement of a debt. This means that many types of vendor aren't actually required to take cash if they don't want to. An example of a debt would be having a meal in a restaurant - the food is prepared at your order and consumed before payment is requested, so you're in their debt. But buying a chocolate bar in your local corner shop isn't, because if you don't pay, you don't get the goods, so there is no debt.
 

Offline vad

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2021, 04:23:30 am »
Not around here anymore!  Very few store even have the mechanical card swipe machines anymore and none of the brainless employees knows how to fill in a form.
You don’t need to have the mechanical card swipe machine for offline processing, although these can still be in use. Electronic payment terminals can do offline authorization. Ever wonder how inflight card transactions get processed by airlines?
 

Offline ataradov

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2021, 04:26:51 am »
Mechanical machines are not even viable anymore. I've got a replacement card last year, not only it did not have embossed letter, but it actually has no information printed on the front, not a name not a number. There is only a chip and a bank name. The rest printed is on the reverse side.
Alex
 

Offline tpowell1830

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2021, 07:43:58 am »
I am reading all these articles about how Australia is going cashless. Clearly the online companies are ecstatic. What do you think?

I'm worried about natural disasters if you cant access your bank account, how will you pay? If there is a solar storm that wipes out the grid, how will you pay? If you have a negative balance, how will you access toll roads?

Do you use your cell phone to pay now? Obvious, peoples lives will become an open book to the information brokers. In India they just demonetized, suddenly the two top denominations of cash became worthless. Millions of poor Indians lost their life savings. The Modi government didn't seem concerned. It later came out that a US group, the Better Than Cash Alliance had been involved, calling the Indian demonetization their pilot project.

In a cashless society any problem could become a major disaster very quickly. Also it gives too much power to companies that should never have become as big as they are. IMHO. We see the problem with the GAFA companies. (Google Apple Facebook Amazon)

http://NorbertHaering.de has been tracking the cashless issue.

reference example:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-09/australia-can-learn-from-swedens-move-to-a-cashless-society/12282764

The Great Reset is about to happen... the Federal Reserve will send everyone their basic income money electronically and, if not spent by end of month, reset to zero...  :-DD
PEACE===>T
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2021, 08:11:59 am »
My problem wouldn't be a global disaster scenario, but a personal one.
Imagine, that you own the tax office and the bank. It's overdue, you lost jour job or other tragedy happened, health issue, sick family member. Say, your balance is 0. Your credit is 0 because you couldn't pay the last one. You are selling your furniture, to get some money, to be able to buy food. You sell your sofa. By the time you get to the store to buy some food, the tax office liberated the money from your account, because you owned them.

With cash, you have the control to buy food first (and not die) and pay for mortgage, utility bill or outstanding invoices later. Nowadays, you cannot open nameless account. Maybe there will be cards that are not linked to your personal account, like prepaid debit cards.

0 is a strange number. Going from 1 to 2 is a 100% increment, going from 0 to 1 is infinite.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2021, 09:15:58 am »
It's funny you should actually post about this. I was just talking about this today with a friend.

I could count on two hands the number of times I've actually used cash over the past 5-10 years, whether it be small amounts for something like a coffee or thousands of dollars for something larger. Everything for me is paid via debit card (backed by Visa and Mastercard, but offers no credit facility).

NFC has taken over as the primary card type (followed by chip-based cards). Magstripe is almost never used any more (and in many cases, terminals will refuse magstripe payments or have it disabled altogether). Almost all newer style pinpads don't have a magnetic reader any more. Just about every card has NFC, Chip and Magstripe by default.

As a consumer, it usually costs me nothing to use a card for everything. Some stores will charge a fee (which is a card processing fee passed down from the merchant) that is usually 0.25 to 0.50% of the total payment amount but not all stores pass that on. This fee is only charged if I select the "Credit" option on the card machine, otherwise I can press "Savings" and it's completely free everywhere. For me, it all comes out of the same pool of money, the only difference is how the payment gets routed. An example of where this might be different is if you had 1 card, but a credit account attached to your normal savings/transaction account. Pressing "Credit" would use the credit side of things where as pressing "Savings" (or far less commonly "Cheque") would pull the money from another one of your accounts.

Likewise, money transfers here between accounts or even intrabank transfers (via your internet banking portal or a smartphone app) are instantaneous and completely free. Then on top of that, there is an application available for iOS and Android devices called Beem It which allows for instant payments for up to $2000 per day (or $10,000 per 30 days). I use it when someone pays for dinner and I want to transfer my share of the bill.

Just on cheques briefly, they are almost never used in Australia any more. I think I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've handled a cheque and all of them have been more than 10 years ago.

As for security, just like anything, if you look after your things and are mindful of personal security and the security of your mail, you won't get scammed or skimmed. Treat payment methods like you (should) treat your passwords, although most banks here will reverse unauthorised transactions, or if they can't, refund small amounts at their cost, without any questions asked.

For me, cashless works reliably and securely every single time. Even when networks go down, payments are honoured.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 09:18:59 am by Halcyon »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2021, 09:29:47 am »
My problem wouldn't be a global disaster scenario, but a personal one.
Imagine, that you own the tax office and the bank. It's overdue, you lost jour job or other tragedy happened, health issue, sick family member. Say, your balance is 0. Your credit is 0 because you couldn't pay the last one. You are selling your furniture, to get some money, to be able to buy food. You sell your sofa. By the time you get to the store to buy some food, the tax office liberated the money from your account, because you owned them.
That is why you have multiple bank accounts at multiple banks. One ingoing account, one outgoing account and don't take a mortgage from a bank where you also have a bankaccount you actively use. In the NL this setup works until a judge grants a debt collector the right to claim your assets in which case you can't sell anything anyway.

Even in here in the 21st century, in first-world countries, there are still significant proportions of the population that have no access to electronic payment methods or even banking facilities full stop. Those with very bad credit, immigrants, the homeless, etc. Take away their ability to trade with cash and you take away the ability for them to live their lives independently.
Over here shops are obliged to accept (small) cash payments by law and I assume this will be the case everywhere else. However there are also countries where you can't pay expensive items using cash. The limit may be as low a few k euro as part of anti-money laundring regulations.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 09:34:58 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2021, 01:23:55 pm »
  In the US and many other countries, the drug trade will ensure that cash will remains King* for a long time to come!   Drugs and other underground economies are another BIG reason that the US and other governments are stublely trying to force a switch to a cashless economy.

  For the benefit of the ones of you that aren't in the US and aren't familiar with their idioms, there is a saying in business that "Cash is King". Meaning that it's acceptable or even preferred in most transactions.
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2021, 08:19:32 pm »
  In the US and many other countries, the drug trade will ensure that cash will remains King* for a long time to come!   Drugs and other underground economies are another BIG reason that the US and other governments are stublely trying to force a switch to a cashless economy.

  For the benefit of the ones of you that aren't in the US and aren't familiar with their idioms, there is a saying in business that "Cash is King". Meaning that it's acceptable or even preferred in most transactions.

Did you read Norbert Haering's series
https://norberthaering.de

on the Indian demonetization actually being caused by a cabal of big US companies? This seems quite possible.. They just drool over the free money they will get from all this.... regulation..
If people have no choice.. Its kind of like that now with corona virus.. people have no choice but to transact and interact online.

This is why the privacy rules should be enhanced. Frankly, I would like to see much mkore online prvacy and I would also like to see the huge firms broken up. No part of them should be too big to fail. Also, there is a need for more privacy online. The user tracking is going to spiral out of control, I can see it going that way. It will become like George Orwell's 1984 but worse.

Peoples devices will become a surveillance nightmare.  There will be no freedom as the corporations become able to manipulate peoples lives in every possible way. They will have incredible power to get what they want. Politics will become more and more corrupt with no means of control by the public.

At least that uis where I think this is taking us. As an American I don't think this coulntry can afford all the decisions that are being made for corporations. IMHO People are naive and gullible and dont realize what the mega corporations are planning for them. They don't have even the foggiest clue.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2021, 08:33:07 pm »
I have perhaps a few hundred dollars in cash on hand at any given time, it's enough to cover an unexpected expense but it won't go very far in the grand scheme of things. I'm not too worried about it though, there are other methods. Credit cards can be processed the old fashioned manual way, many businesses still have one of the old carbon paper card machines stashed in a cupboard somewhere and it can be done completely manually with a pen and paper. It would also be possible for local businesses to open a tab and extend credit on their own to customers, people will find a way to make transactions.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2021, 08:35:34 pm »
  In the US and many other countries, the drug trade will ensure that cash will remains King* for a long time to come!   Drugs and other underground economies are another BIG reason that the US and other governments are stublely trying to force a switch to a cashless economy.

  For the benefit of the ones of you that aren't in the US and aren't familiar with their idioms, there is a saying in business that "Cash is King". Meaning that it's acceptable or even preferred in most transactions.

I know some people have that mentality, although for me personally cash is a nuisance for a transaction of more than $100 or so. I don't want to walk around carrying a large amount of cash so if somebody pays me in cash I have to go straight to the bank to deposit it. If someone pays me digitally I don't have to do anything more, the money changes hands and I don't have to carry anything physical.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2021, 08:42:29 pm »
  In the US and many other countries, the drug trade will ensure that cash will remains King* for a long time to come!   Drugs and other underground economies are another BIG reason that the US and other governments are stublely trying to force a switch to a cashless economy.

  For the benefit of the ones of you that aren't in the US and aren't familiar with their idioms, there is a saying in business that "Cash is King". Meaning that it's acceptable or even preferred in most transactions.

I know some people have that mentality, although for me personally cash is a nuisance for a transaction of more than $100 or so. I don't want to walk around carrying a large amount of cash so if somebody pays me in cash I have to go straight to the bank to deposit it. If someone pays me digitally I don't have to do anything more, the money changes hands and I don't have to carry anything physical.
Yes. In the past we have bought and sold some cars to/from private persons. When selling we always did the transaction at the post office (also necessary to transfer the registration) and deposit the money into the bank account straightaway. Buying a car (and thus walking around with a sizeable chunk of cash) never made me very comfortable. Nowadays bank transfers are instant (at least over here) so all you need is your mobile phone to check your balance or make a transfer (still subject to risk though).
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 08:44:29 pm by nctnico »
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Online tszaboo

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2021, 10:50:55 pm »
My problem wouldn't be a global disaster scenario, but a personal one.
Imagine, that you own the tax office and the bank. It's overdue, you lost jour job or other tragedy happened, health issue, sick family member. Say, your balance is 0. Your credit is 0 because you couldn't pay the last one. You are selling your furniture, to get some money, to be able to buy food. You sell your sofa. By the time you get to the store to buy some food, the tax office liberated the money from your account, because you owned them.
That is why you have multiple bank accounts at multiple banks. One ingoing account, one outgoing account and don't take a mortgage from a bank where you also have a bankaccount you actively use. In the NL this setup works until a judge grants a debt collector the right to claim your assets in which case you can't sell anything anyway.
Actually, 3 accounts from 3 countries, and 2 currencies. I want to open an unnamed account in Switzerland sometime in the future maybe it is still possible.
But Australia with its policies is sometimes very close to the United States. Its nice to think in the EU that everywhere else life is this civilized... But then they can shoot you legally in Texas if you go through someone back yard. Or a debt collector using illegal practices to collect the debt, and your only defense is to sue them, which you are unable to do because you have no money. Or power company deciding to charge 2000% the normal rate. The list goes on. It's like the wild west.
 

Offline duckduck

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2021, 11:57:37 pm »
Just imagine having to pay tax on every single purchase you make.  :--

How will people buy illegal items and services? I suppose you will buy a $200 "massage" and $80 of "candy". The real question I have is, how will drug dealers buy their drugs from the middle-men? Perhaps the transactions will be done in gold, like in ye olden times. People are amazingly creative and good ideas propagate quickly. I love learning about street economics. Look into why Tide laundry detergent was being stolen from stores in the US for a while. Fascinating stuff.

EDIT:

The international banks were only too eager to help the drug cartels move their cash out of the USA. I'm sure it will be the same in Australia. More interesting will be the mid-level transactions inside Australia. There will be a whole new class of officials on the take.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 01:14:58 am by duckduck »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2021, 12:45:16 am »
I don't think cash will completely go away in the foreseeable future. There will always be some non-electronic way of transferring wealth. It's just going to keep becoming more and more of a niche thing.
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2021, 02:00:11 am »
Not around here anymore!  Very few store even have the mechanical card swipe machines anymore and none of the brainless employees knows how to fill in a form.
You don’t need to have the mechanical card swipe machine for offline processing, although these can still be in use. Electronic payment terminals can do offline authorization.

    I  guess that you didn't bother to read my statement. The computer mother board that the store's cash register/CC Processing machine was DEAD!  It seems hard to believe that a modern business would be reliant on a single computer but many of them are. I can't count the number of times that I have been a business that had operational cash registers (dumb terminals) but all connected to one computer and it was acting up so they couldn't conduct any business. Maybe they CAN do offline authorizations but they don't! They just tell you to come back later.  I've even seen that in doctors' and dentist's offices. There's so much fraud around here involving medical insurance that every office waits until you're literally standing in front of them before they go online or call and check that your insurance is still valid. If they can't connect or if their computer or the the insurance company's computer isn't working and they can't get validation then you don't get seen!
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2021, 02:16:43 am »

Did you read Norbert Haering's series
https://norberthaering.de

on the Indian demonetization actually being caused by a cabal of big US companies? This seems quite possible.. They just drool over the free money they will get from all this.... regulation..
If people have no choice.. Its kind of like that now with corona virus.. people have no choice but to transact and interact online.

This is why the privacy rules should be enhanced. Frankly, I would like to see much mkore online prvacy and I would also like to see the huge firms broken up. No part of them should be too big to fail. Also, there is a need for more privacy online. The user tracking is going to spiral out of control, I can see it going that way. It will become like George Orwell's 1984 but worse.

Peoples devices will become a surveillance nightmare.  There will be no freedom as the corporations become able to manipulate peoples lives in every possible way. They will have incredible power to get what they want. Politics will become more and more corrupt with no means of control by the public.

At least that uis where I think this is taking us. As an American I don't think this coulntry can afford all the decisions that are being made for corporations. IMHO People are naive and gullible and dont realize what the mega corporations are planning for them. They don't have even the foggiest clue.

   I completely with you on all points. The growing lack of privacy in the US is appalling and people's willingness to willingly give it up in the form of Apps and other software like FaceBook and Google is just mind boggling.

     I haven't seen Haering's series but i will look into them.  A good friend of mine (actually several) is Indian and his family lost a TON of money in the recent demonetization.  Like many Indian families they had been sitting on their cash and they were only allowed to trade in a small portion of it so the majority of their cash suddenly became worthless. Shivan told me that only something like 15% of all of the cash in India was redeemed.  Just think of all of that currency that the government of India no longer has the legal responsibility to redeem! I guess that now, they're free to print Trillions more and are free to spend it as well. 
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2021, 02:34:31 am »
  In the US and many other countries, the drug trade will ensure that cash will remains King* for a long time to come!   Drugs and other underground economies are another BIG reason that the US and other governments are stublely trying to force a switch to a cashless economy.

  For the benefit of the ones of you that aren't in the US and aren't familiar with their idioms, there is a saying in business that "Cash is King". Meaning that it's acceptable or even preferred in most transactions.

I know some people have that mentality, although for me personally cash is a nuisance for a transaction of more than $100 or so. I don't want to walk around carrying a large amount of cash so if somebody pays me in cash I have to go straight to the bank to deposit it. If someone pays me digitally I don't have to do anything more, the money changes hands and I don't have to carry anything physical.

  I'm like you. I keep around a thousand dollars in cash at home but usually only have perhaps 3 $20 bills on me when I'm out and about. And those usually last me for WEEKS.  I generally pay for everything with a credit card. OTOH I do stay well stocked on fuel, food and water and anything else that I consider essential (TP!) so outages and short term shortages rarely affect me.  My regular checks are direct deposited and we make nearly all of our payments electronically.  Groceries, fuel, meals out and anything that we order is all paid for via CCs and we pay the CC companies at the end of each month electronically. We write exactly two checks per year, both to the local county and for property taxes and for automobile registrations. We would pay those with a CC or electronically but they charge a hefty fee for using those so we just write two checks.

  Unless someone is going to give me a discount for paying cash, I just pay for everything with a CC and I avoid the hassles of carrying cash and having to make or take change.
 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2021, 02:51:34 am »
I do not feel compfortable unless i have about $100 in cash on me for all the debt style transactions. E.g. eating at a resteraunt or fueling my car. If something goes south i much prefer to pay cash than have to hand over something in collateral.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2021, 03:28:57 am »
A good friend of mine (actually several) is Indian and his family lost a TON of money in the recent demonetization.  Like many Indian families they had been sitting on their cash and they were only allowed to trade in a small portion of it so the majority of their cash suddenly became worthless. Shivan told me that only something like 15% of all of the cash in India was redeemed.  Just think of all of that currency that the government of India no longer has the legal responsibility to redeem! I guess that now, they're free to print Trillions more and are free to spend it as well. 
I remember when Bitcoin sharply increased in value as a result. I guess that if Indians can't trust their own currency to not suddenly become worthless, they might as well use Bitcoin...
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2021, 03:35:54 am »
I do not feel compfortable unless i have about $100 in cash on me for all the debt style transactions. E.g. eating at a resteraunt or fueling my car. If something goes south i much prefer to pay cash than have to hand over something in collateral.

I like to keep $20-$60 in my wallet for that sort of thing. Unless I'm a long way from home, $20 will buy me enough gas to get there and it's rare that I spend more than that on a meal. If I find myself really in a jam I can call somebody to come help me out.
 

Offline jhalar

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2021, 03:41:03 am »
I went to my specialist doctor recently.  The payment terminal could not pickup the wifi to make a payment and the terminal could not do an offline transaction.

Lucky I had enough cash to pay for the visit.
Electronics and Network Engineer. Working in both worlds.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2021, 03:43:02 am »
I went to my specialist doctor recently.  The payment terminal could not pickup the wifi to make a payment and the terminal could not do an offline transaction.

Lucky I had enough cash to pay for the visit.

Seems like the burden is on them in that case. If they are unable to process the transaction they should send you on your way and mail you a bill.
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2021, 04:02:27 am »
If you pay the bill at their office and it turns out insurance is supposed to cover it then it should mail you a hefty check refunding you the money you paid.. back. I think one of the main reasons the powers that be want cashless is to they can claw back money that was overpaid, say if you sell some stuff on ebay but dont declare it, then you may be deemed guilty of collecting benefits you were not entitled to. then they can decide you werent covered for that year or back to the beginning of the policy, cancel out (claw back their payments to doctors and then rebill you at the uninsured rate back to the beginning of the policy. This is called rescission or post claim underwriting. This may result in unpayable six or seven figure bills huge bills.; But they just take your wages until you have paid it back, if the system is automated. It will cause problems when people try to travel, too. Also people sometimes get hit wit hugh bills through no fault of their own because an out of network doctor assisted at their surgery when the in network doctor who was sheduled cancelled out. This might cause a patient a surprise six figure bill.

Once they are hooked into your bank account, you have no control over what they do. And often if they take out money that will trigger a cascade of new fees from the bank. People in Australia have been so beaten down by this "robo debt" system that some have committed suicide, Ive read, but the government denies that.

You can read the stories and the debate under the robodebt or centrelink keyword..
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 04:09:24 am by cdev »
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