General > General Technical Chat
Cashless Australia
vad:
--- Quote from: coppice on March 10, 2021, 04:39:08 pm ---
--- Quote from: vad on March 10, 2021, 04:02:18 pm ---Cashless society means less violent crime: fewer armed bank/store robberies, fewer street robberies. Probably less relevant to Australia than to the US though.
--- End quote ---
The numerous Indians bankrupted by government actions over cash in 2016 probably aren't particularly consoled by the crime being non-violent.
--- End quote ---
It is not uncommon for communist regimes to redistribute wealth through confiscation. They can confiscate cash, bank deposits, or both.
Here is my experience.
Before its fall in 1991, Soviet regime removed 50- and 100-rubble notes from circulation with immediate effect. People were given 3 days to exchange to different bank notes, with universal limit of 1000 rubbles per person (for comparison, the cost of Big Mac in McDonalds in Moscow was 3.75 rubbles at the time)
However bank accounts are not immune from institutional robbery either. Hyperinflation and denomination are another two tools in government toolbox. The 1000 rubbles that soviet people were allowed to keep a year earlier, could barely buy a lunch by 1992 due to hyperinflation. And it did not matter if you had 1000 in bank or in cash.
So yes, authoritarian governments can rob you, no matter if you keep your money in cash or in bank.
SiliconWizard:
The cashless society is a worldwide trend. I really fear it for a number of reasons, some of which having already been exposed here. In theory, we could very well go "cashless" - in the sense of transforming currencies into a purely digital form - while retaining the same "freedom" cash offers. Current cryptocurrencies, for instance, are mostly that. But this is definitely NOT what cashless is going to be. You'll basically have absolutely no control over your own money. Banks, and any organization with the relevant power, will be able to cut your from your money in an instant. You may argue that it's already more or less the case. But it will be a final nail in the coffin.
Of course there's also the technical issues - any network problem could mean no access to money. Not what worries me the most actually, but still a major concern.
And for those who think the bright side is how this will eradicate criminal activities, I think this is completely deluded.
We're just rushing towards Brave new world and 1984 combined, and a large majority doesn't care one bit.
That's all for now.
james_s:
--- Quote from: Oldtestgear on March 10, 2021, 10:52:49 am ---Thee are also many activities ( radio rallies, flea markets, etc.) that the small stall holders will be barred from in a cashless society. I do not plan to pay for a card reader just to do a couple of events a year.
--- End quote ---
Total non-issue. There are services like Paypal and Venmo, and numerous others would pop up if there was a need. It wouldn't surprise me if an app appeared specifically for events like garage sales and hamfests. I already use Paypal to pay my friends for things, or buy goods off sites like Craigslist. I just ask the seller for their paypal address while I'm standing there looking at the thing and use my mobile phone to send them the money. They get the notification and I leave with my purchase. Painless.
tpowell1830:
--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 10, 2021, 07:52:49 pm ---The cashless society is a worldwide trend. I really fear it for a number of reasons, some of which having already been exposed here. In theory, we could very well go "cashless" - in the sense of transforming currencies into a purely digital form - while retaining the same "freedom" cash offers. Current cryptocurrencies, for instance, are mostly that. But this is definitely NOT what cashless is going to be. You'll basically have absolutely no control over your own money. Banks, and any organization with the relevant power, will be able to cut your from your money in an instant. You may argue that it's already more or less the case. But it will be a final nail in the coffin.
Of course there's also the technical issues - any network problem could mean no access to money. Not what worries me the most actually, but still a major concern.
And for those who think the bright side is how this will eradicate criminal activities, I think this is completely deluded.
We're just rushing towards Brave new world and 1984 combined, and a large majority doesn't care one bit.
That's all for now.
--- End quote ---
Yes, I agree with this, and how about those of us that simply do not want this for varying reasons. Not that I carry a lot of cash on me at any given time, but if I want to pay someone in cash, I can go get the cash out of the bank and pay if I want. To me, it is not about convenience, although it is convenient not to carry cash, but freedom to pay either way I choose.
Just my 2 cents...
cdev:
Vendrs like it because they can debit your account monthly for a service. Also, creditors can seize money they are owned out of debtors accounts, at least in theory.
Australia is heading towards a debit card for people on public assistance, I read the other day. It will step in and manage their bank accounts and if they apply they can have their parole lifted, although its claimed that it will be hard for people to escape ( for example, see the web page of an Austrlian opponent of the cashless debit cards. https://www.facebook.com/notowelfarecard/ ) thus easy money from small fees which add up contributes to keep the poor in a predatory situation. Fees feeding a proliferation of third party management companies. (who will get a percentage of their income for "managing" it. ) There is a huge proliferation of these companies it seems, in the UK and Australia and soon the US. who take one percent here and two percent elsewhere , basically insider corporations get free money for doing something that is automated and implemented in software..mostly so the cost is a taking from poor people. Why cant the government do it? The GATS services agreement, of course, ended that - it would be taking the food off the health insurance companies plates.. It prohibits any new noncommercial services, and privatizes existing ones, the classic example is public healthcare in the United States. which is banned because the GATS rules deemed it a trade barrier. - ts rules on financial services mandate governments to allow any and all new 'innovative financial services', no matter how little sense they make. They can't refuse to allow them. even if usurious. Subsequently corporations receive an entitlement for it to continue, unless another more profitable one springd up in its place. Many involve surveillance and/or loss of privacy. One take away we should consider is the fact that the more digital a process seems the more fraud becomes endemic in it. Mortgage fraud is a good example, it skyrockted in the 2990s in no small part because a proliferation of online lenders. Many of them were running moprtgage fraud operations but none were ever really prosecuted. These large, well known national firms were systematically stealing peoples houses, typically their largest investment. Then these loans were used to defraud others by puffing up the values of the banks in what amounted to a huge Ponzi scheme. No matter how just their case was the simple fact that so much fraud was occurring enabled these fraudsters in a big way. It was an explosion of criminality. And its even more outrageous that they got away with it. Something similar happened in the UK a few years earlier with the BCCI scandal. It seems there are problems in the system that are driving vast increases in what is called systemic risk. zmor on this affair here: https://info.publicintelligence.net/The-BCCI-Affair.pdf
and here: http://visar.csustan.edu/aaba/bccipage.html These kinds of crimes are why they claim they need a cashless system globally in finance. But I have little confidence that setting up a system with the potential of being so intrusive, alone would lead to a reduction in the pervasive system of offshore banks, and shell companies, that are making the rich so unaccountable to anybody.
--------
--- Quote from: tpowell1830 on March 10, 2021, 08:36:26 pm ---
--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 10, 2021, 07:52:49 pm ---The cashless society is a worldwide trend. I really fear it for a number of reasons, some of which having already been exposed here. In theory, we could very well go "cashless" - in the sense of transforming currencies into a purely digital form - while retaining the same "freedom" cash offers. Current cryptocurrencies, for instance, are mostly that. But this is definitely NOT what cashless is going to be. You'll basically have absolutely no control over your own money. Banks, and any organization with the relevant power, will be able to cut your from your money in an instant. You may argue that it's already more or less the case. But it will be a final nail in the coffin.
Of course there's also the technical issues - any network problem could mean no access to money. Not what worries me the most actually, but still a major concern.
And for those who think the bright side is how this will eradicate criminal activities, I think this is completely deluded.
We're just rushing towards Brave new world and 1984 combined, and a large majority doesn't care one bit.
That's all for now.
--- End quote ---
Yes, I agree with this, and how about those of us that simply do not want this for varying reasons. Not that I carry a lot of cash on me at any given time, but if I want to pay someone in cash, I can go get the cash out of the bank and pay if I want. To me, it is not about convenience, although it is convenient not to carry cash, but freedom to pay either way I choose.
Just my 2 cents...
--- End quote ---
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