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Offline Zero999

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #75 on: March 11, 2021, 08:57:55 am »
I'm all for keeping cash, mainly because going cashless would severely affect the very poor and homeless often don't have bank accounts. It would also be bad for some charities who receive donations from people donating spare change.
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2021, 09:10:50 am »
I'm all for keeping cash, mainly because going cashless would severely affect the very poor and homeless often don't have bank accounts. It would also be bad for some charities who receive donations from people donating spare change.

On the contrary, I don't think that's an excuse, but I guess that comes down regional differences.

Here, in Australia, if you're a welfare recipient, you receive payment into your bank account. To hold a bank account costs nothing. Anyone can sign up for one. How you use it is a matter for yourself. I'm not suggesting that cash will disappear in our lifetime and it will certainly have its place in the future, but its use is declining quickly. In 2019, Australians used cash for about 27% of all purchases and that has been dropping significantly year-on-year. Likewise the sizes of cash payments have fallen significantly and this is all largely due to consumer demand. Cash is still an option, but more and more people are moving away from it. Like I said earlier, I use cash maybe 3-5 times per year, if that. Almost everything I use money for is electronic and so much more convenient. I have a bucket full of coins that I haven't touched for years. I have no need.

https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2020/jun/cash-use-in-australia-results-from-the-2019-consumer-payments-survey.html

I foresee cash going the same way as cheques did many years ago... still valid forms of payment (for most things) but rarely used by most people.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 09:20:17 am by Halcyon »
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #77 on: March 11, 2021, 10:16:21 am »
As far as I'm aware, one needs to have a residential address to have a bank account and receive benifits, which is no good for those who are homeless, because they can't afford the rent.
 
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Offline cdevTopic starter

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Was: Cashless Australia: Digital euro "progress"
« Reply #78 on: March 11, 2021, 12:38:18 pm »
Norbert Haring has a lot to say about this "war on cash" as he puts it. They held a consultation, but like always its shambolic. They don't rally care what people think nor are they about to change any of their plans because what people say.

The ECB would (not really) like to know your opinion on the digital euro – let them know. Here is Germany's non-attempt
Does it seem as if they want any actual debate on the possible problems? No.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
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Offline cdevTopic starter

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #79 on: March 11, 2021, 12:53:13 pm »
I think that is the main intent, to non-disruptively keep the homelesss and/or poor out of cities shopping ares and commercial or gathering places.
As far as I'm aware, one needs to have a residential address to have a bank account and receive benifits, which is no good for those who are homeless, because they can't afford the rent.

You neglect that the poor who can afford to live in nicer cities are usually too wealthy to receive any assistance. At least thats the way it is here. The only states that are providing a safety net are the mopre expensive ones. If somebody successfully applies for and receives help with many problems, the social work system likely thinks they are probably cheating somewhere because they designed the system to refuse help to anybody with enough assets to (in their eyes) afford them. Like when you are over 50 the cost of health insurance rises so astronomically. Most shift workers dont make enough to realistically afford it. The same with rents in the areas the jobs remain. They are so high on the coasts, the cost of living is extemely high and the poor are unusually skillful if they can access most benefits because the income disqualifies them. Going cashless will let government claw back money paid to somebody who turns out to be ineligible. After the money is clawed back for a hospital stay then the providers rebill at the uninsured rate, which is higher.

When women come in for maternity care, hospitals bill the child as well as her now. That means that if ones mother has a particularly difficult pregancy and ends up with a six figure bill (its not uncommon for the uninsured to end up with large bills when a mother has something like a breech birth or an ectopic pregnancy or pre gestational diabetes. Well, when that child turns 18, they will inherit this bill in their name.

We have a massive number of people who are carrying around huge student debts they may never be able to pay off. A cashless system would garnish or simply deduct all the money they got in income until all those debts were paid off. .



Here is his web page on the digital euro:
https://norberthaering.de/en/money-finance/digital-euro-en/
Here is a web page from the Bundesbank  on this https://www.tab-beim-bundestag.de/de/untersuchungen/u50200.html  Yes, I suspect giving debtors people an incentive to pay back creditors (not being able to do any of the activities of a modern society)
I suspect anticipation of a future that is impossible to sustainably navigate for a larger and larger number of people is a driver opf much of this policy. Profit always has to be the main priority for governments. for investors.  Here in the US with so much student loan debt -that will be harsh.

Automated roads and autonomous cars will likely help enforce this massive debt collection system too. They simply wont be able to drive on toll roads when ones balance is negative.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 02:01:09 pm by cdev »
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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #80 on: March 11, 2021, 02:53:16 pm »
Quote
Number one reason why a government would prefer a cashless society is that every transaction can be tracked, traced and accounted fo
And give them control of who spends how much  on what.In the uk its been suggested sevral times to make benefit payments via a card that can only be used for certain transactions in certain shops

   That did something quite close to that in the late 1970s or early 80s but it didn't work.  The USG issued cards or something of that nature that could only be used in grocery stores but many unscrupulous store owners would simply buy up the cards for CASH and then get the full face value back from the government but they only paid about 30 to 40% of the face value to the poor. Also the "poor" frequently used the cards to buy junk food, beer, cigarettes, etc in grocery stores with their cards.  I used to know a guy that owned a TV shop and poor people would come in and buy a TV and used their cards to pay for it. The way that they worked it was that the shop owner would set a price and then the two of them would go to a grocery store and the owner would pick out steaks or other expensive items equal to the purchase price, and the card owner would pay for all of it using their card.

   
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #81 on: March 11, 2021, 03:01:37 pm »
I'm all for keeping cash, mainly because going cashless would severely affect the very poor and homeless often don't have bank accounts.

  Not really.  The US Gov now issues "EBT" debit cards to welfare recipients and they can use them exactly like any other debit card. They don't need to have a bank account or even a fixed address to use the cards. I'm not certain but I think that many people are also getting their Covid-19 "Relief" payments the same way.

  Also in the US, if you have any kind of regular income, income that you get every month, and you have it Direct Deposited to their bank, many banks will give you a free account.
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #82 on: March 11, 2021, 06:43:38 pm »
I'm all for keeping cash, mainly because going cashless would severely affect the very poor and homeless often don't have bank accounts.

  Not really.  The US Gov now issues "EBT" debit cards to welfare recipients and they can use them exactly like any other debit card. They don't need to have a bank account or even a fixed address to use the cards. I'm not certain but I think that many people are also getting their Covid-19 "Relief" payments the same way.

  Also in the US, if you have any kind of regular income, income that you get every month, and you have it Direct Deposited to their bank, many banks will give you a free account.

We have something similar here, although I think it's still being trialled in certain areas, but it works (some people are unhappy with it for obvious reasons). Many people who are on benefits have no idea how to budget and are their own worst enemy when it comes to handling money. Hell, even people will full-time employment and earn decent money find it difficult to budget or don't budget at all. But that's on the individual, the system can only do so much to hold the hands of people and frankly, that's the way it should be. However if you're on Government assistance, my view is that how you spend it should be controlled (at least to some degree). Welfare is by far the biggest expense when it comes to where tax dollars go and my opinion is that it shouldn't be wasted on cigarettes, alcohol and other non-essentials when the recipient can't afford it.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #83 on: March 11, 2021, 06:45:30 pm »
  Not really.  The US Gov now issues "EBT" debit cards to welfare recipients and they can use them exactly like any other debit card. They don't need to have a bank account or even a fixed address to use the cards. I'm not certain but I think that many people are also getting their Covid-19 "Relief" payments the same way.

In my case two different Covid "stimulus" payments were deposited directly in my bank account, I didn't even realize I had gotten them until I happened to check my account at some point. Apparently I earned just below the cutoff in 2019 and that qualified me for a payment. Didn't really make much sense to me, I earned more in 2020 than I ever have before but I wasn't going to complain about getting "free" money.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #84 on: March 11, 2021, 06:47:34 pm »
Welfare is by far the biggest expense when it comes to where tax dollars go and my opinion is that it shouldn't be wasted on cigarettes, alcohol and other non-essentials when the recipient can't afford it.

Is it? In the US by far the biggest expense is military, it absolutely dwarfs everything else. I don't know how much we spend on welfare but I think it's essentially a drop in the bucket.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #85 on: March 11, 2021, 06:52:05 pm »
Welfare is by far the biggest expense when it comes to where tax dollars go
What are you classing as welfare? Are you including things like pensions, that people have paid into? Most country's biggest state spending area is either the military, health care, or education.
 


Offline vad

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #87 on: March 11, 2021, 07:01:15 pm »
Is it? In the US by far the biggest expense is military, it absolutely dwarfs everything else. I don't know how much we spend on welfare but I think it's essentially a drop in the bucket.
Not according to this (a bit outdated though - fiscal year 2011):

“83 overlapping federal welfare programs that together represented the single largest budget item in 2011—more than the nation spends on Social Security, Medicare, or national defense. The total amount spent on these 80-plus federal welfare programs amounts to roughly $1.03 trillion. Importantly, these figures solely refer to means-tested welfare benefits. They exclude entitlement programs to which people contribute (e.g., Social Security and Medicare).”

And this is only federal level programs.

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS%20Report%20-%20Welfare%20Spending%20The%20Largest%20Item%20In%20The%20Federal%20Budget.pdf
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #88 on: March 11, 2021, 07:19:50 pm »
Re: U.S. Economic Stimulus Payments, first one came in check form, second one came in cash card form. Both could be, and were, deposited to my bank account.

Cash is still perfectly viable for day-to-day stuff in the US almost everywhere. One example where cash is clearly still king is under emergency conditions. When a significant chunk of Texas was without power, even the more essential places (e.g. grocery stores) could only operate on a cash-only basis. Plastic was worthless even if the store had a generator, since the underlying infrastructure was down as well.
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #89 on: March 11, 2021, 07:31:09 pm »


In my case two different Covid "stimulus" payments were deposited directly in my bank account, I didn't even realize I had gotten them until I happened to check my account at some point. Apparently I earned just below the cutoff in 2019 and that qualified me for a payment. Didn't really make much sense to me, I earned more in 2020 than I ever have before but I wasn't going to complain about getting "free" money.

    The problem with "Free" money is that someone eventually has to pay for it!  Maybe our children or maybe our great grandchildren but sooner or later it has to be paid for. With interest!  I still haven't touched the money that I got from the first Covid payment last year so, to me, getting the payment and then having to pay for it in the future is like taking out an expensive loan when I didn't need it and just sitting on the money but having to eventually pay a good deal of interest on the loan.

  My understanding of the Covid payments is that the US Gov send out the payments the same way that people received their tax refunds and/or other payments from the Gov. If you have your tax refund or Social Security direct deposited then they sent the Covid payment the same way. But if you don't have a bank account and you receive EBT or other government assistance then they sent the payment via a debit card to your last known address.  I think that that's why so many didn't receive their Covid payments as soon as they wanted to and are now howling.  They didn't have a bank account so their payments couldn't be DD'd and they also probably didn't get EBT or other payments so they hadn't keep their current address on file with the USG so their payments took a while to get to them.
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #90 on: March 11, 2021, 07:46:43 pm »
Re: U.S. Economic Stimulus Payments, first one came in check form, second one came in cash card form. Both could be, and were, deposited to my bank account.

Cash is still perfectly viable for day-to-day stuff in the US almost everywhere. One example where cash is clearly still king is under emergency conditions. When a significant chunk of Texas was without power, even the more essential places (e.g. grocery stores) could only operate on a cash-only basis. Plastic was worthless even if the store had a generator, since the underlying infrastructure was down as well.

   Yes, it reminds me of the "LeCloud is burning" thread.  Living off of CCs and having no cash; or storing all of your programs and data on the Cloud, both are   convenient but they have significant risks!

   OTOH as I pointed out earlier in this thread, it's getting to the point in the US that even if you have cash, you may not be able to spend it due to the ignorance of the store's staff!  Legally you can make any purchase but in practice, not so much.

    When I was in college I tried to make a purchase at the college's computer store but they only took payments via check or credit card since they didn't want to deal with cash.  If you insisted on paying cash then you had to go to the store, pick out your items, get a bill for them, then walk across campus to the cashier's office and show them the bill and pay them and then take your receipt back to the store to pick up your items. And that was 30+ years ago, the cash payment situation has gotten worse since then.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #91 on: March 11, 2021, 08:30:06 pm »
The problem with "Free" money is that someone eventually has to pay for it!
Its amazing how long these things can go on. They never just go away. The UK government paid off their second world war debt in 2006. They only recently starting paying off the bonds that financed the first world war. The debt incurred by the 19th century naval actions to end the maritime slave trade was only recently paid off. There are still debts from the South Sea Bubble in 1720, and the Napoleonic wars being serviced. However, if the interest rate is low enough, the effects of inflation eventually make the debt look small.
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #92 on: March 11, 2021, 09:31:35 pm »
Welfare is by far the biggest expense when it comes to where tax dollars go and my opinion is that it shouldn't be wasted on cigarettes, alcohol and other non-essentials when the recipient can't afford it.

Is it? In the US by far the biggest expense is military, it absolutely dwarfs everything else. I don't know how much we spend on welfare but I think it's essentially a drop in the bucket.

Yep. By far the biggest spend in Australia: https://budget.gov.au/2019-20/content/overview.htm



 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #93 on: March 11, 2021, 09:52:07 pm »
I'm all for keeping cash, mainly because going cashless would severely affect the very poor and homeless often don't have bank accounts.

  Not really.  The US Gov now issues "EBT" debit cards to welfare recipients and they can use them exactly like any other debit card. They don't need to have a bank account or even a fixed address to use the cards. I'm not certain but I think that many people are also getting their Covid-19 "Relief" payments the same way.

  Also in the US, if you have any kind of regular income, income that you get every month, and you have it Direct Deposited to their bank, many banks will give you a free account.
I didn't know about that. Can anyone put money on one of those cards? Suppose I want to help a friend, or family member, who's fallen on hard times and is on the street. Could I put money on to their card?

Then there are other instances when I could see this introducing additional costs. A charity I volunteer has an annual summer event, where they sell plants, cakes, coffee, pony rides etc. They don't have any card readers, or anything, as it's not worth it for an annual event, so only take cash. What would we do if they scrapped cash? How much would it cost for us to hire card readers? If the bank could loan them to us for free and not charge per transaction, then great, but I don't that'll happen. It'll just add to the cost.
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #94 on: March 11, 2021, 10:03:07 pm »
I'm all for keeping cash, mainly because going cashless would severely affect the very poor and homeless often don't have bank accounts.

  Not really.  The US Gov now issues "EBT" debit cards to welfare recipients and they can use them exactly like any other debit card. They don't need to have a bank account or even a fixed address to use the cards. I'm not certain but I think that many people are also getting their Covid-19 "Relief" payments the same way.

  Also in the US, if you have any kind of regular income, income that you get every month, and you have it Direct Deposited to their bank, many banks will give you a free account.

We have something similar here, although I think it's still being trialled in certain areas, but it works (some people are unhappy with it for obvious reasons). Many people who are on benefits have no idea how to budget and are their own worst enemy when it comes to handling money. Hell, even people will full-time employment and earn decent money find it difficult to budget or don't budget at all. But that's on the individual, the system can only do so much to hold the hands of people and frankly, that's the way it should be. However if you're on Government assistance, my view is that how you spend it should be controlled (at least to some degree). Welfare is by far the biggest expense when it comes to where tax dollars go and my opinion is that it shouldn't be wasted on cigarettes, alcohol and other non-essentials when the recipient can't afford it.


I don't think this is even remotely true. Here is a PDF graphic on where US tax money really goes in 2021. A lot of it goes to military, we spend far more than any ofthe other countries in the world. Around 40% goes to social services. Less than many other countries, percentage wise. Lots of the money is spent in various forms of corporate welfare. Many of the largest US companies get away with paying no taxes.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 10:30:26 pm by cdev »
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Online Halcyon

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #95 on: March 11, 2021, 11:30:51 pm »
I don't think this is even remotely true.

It may not be in the US, but in other parts of the world, such as Australia, it's very much true. Every year when we complete our tax returns, we get an individual breakdown of how much of our tax dollars was spent where. Welfare is always at the top of the list.
 

Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #96 on: March 12, 2021, 01:29:14 am »
I honestly think mentality like this is damaging. Everyday things that you and I buy, say or do won't be made illegal tomorrow. Nor is legislation enacted quickly or as far-reaching as you describe. It just doesn't happen. Hell, even our cloud data laws are out of date (and are currently in the process of being reviewed). I've seen the drafts and even then, it doesn't go far enough.

Surveillance, certainly in this country, will never impact 99.99% of residents.

"I'm not doing anything wrong, so it doesn't affect me. I have nothing to hide, so why should I care. The stuff I buy will be of no interest to anyone."

I would say mentality like that is even more damaging.

Apathy towards privacy just enables abuse with those who have access to data. Legislation may not be enacted quickly, but its implementation is incremental. Just look back in the last 20 years, not just here, but also internationally, and you will find that governments and law enforcement are becoming more intrusive and hostile towards measures that implement privacy. And we just keep surrendering our data willingly to authorities with the misplaced implicit trust that our information will never be abused.
 
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Online Halcyon

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #97 on: March 12, 2021, 02:17:11 am »
I honestly think mentality like this is damaging. Everyday things that you and I buy, say or do won't be made illegal tomorrow. Nor is legislation enacted quickly or as far-reaching as you describe. It just doesn't happen. Hell, even our cloud data laws are out of date (and are currently in the process of being reviewed). I've seen the drafts and even then, it doesn't go far enough.

Surveillance, certainly in this country, will never impact 99.99% of residents.

"I'm not doing anything wrong, so it doesn't affect me. I have nothing to hide, so why should I care. The stuff I buy will be of no interest to anyone."

I would say mentality like that is even more damaging.

Apathy towards privacy just enables abuse with those who have access to data. Legislation may not be enacted quickly, but its implementation is incremental. Just look back in the last 20 years, not just here, but also internationally, and you will find that governments and law enforcement are becoming more intrusive and hostile towards measures that implement privacy. And we just keep surrendering our data willingly to authorities with the misplaced implicit trust that our information will never be abused.

No, I absolutely agree. However most people have their priorities backwards. I have nothing (illegal or embarassing) to hide yet I still expect a reasonable right to privacy. I can guarantee that the vast majority of those complaining about "mass surveillance" are the very same people who voluntarily share their personal information, photographs, location information etc... with companies such as Facebook, Instagram, Apple and sometimes even the general public for all to see.

I don't agree that governments have been hostile to privacy at all. Take your favourite encrypted messaging application for example, laws have been strengthened to allow government agencies and police to access this information under certain circumstances, but those circumstances will never apply to almost all of us. If you have your phone seized because you committed a serious crime, well that's completely on you. What the government do in order to access that information after the fact is fair game. I would say over the past 20 years, access to private information has become more difficult, not easier.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 02:19:03 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #98 on: March 12, 2021, 02:49:41 am »
Anyone who claims to know how US money is going to be spent in 2021 is not only predicting the future of a VERY non-typical year that mostly hasn't happened yet, but is just plain wrong. The number changed by $1.9 trillion today, as a matter of fact. Last year wasn't typical either.
 
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Offline cdevTopic starter

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Re: Cashless Australia
« Reply #99 on: March 12, 2021, 03:39:27 am »
I saw this happen in the Coachella Valley years ago. Two men were sitting in  car in the street. It was 120 degrees in the shade. They were watching a very big house. I went out there to give them some ice water, since their car's air conditioner was working hard. They didn't tell me who they were but it became obvious that they were cops of some kind, the next day when other federal police arrived and started carting the contents out of the house. I got the impression the neighbors were in arrears on their taxes. That was a very strange neighborhood.  None of those rich people there have normal jobs. They live in a different world.


It was a kind of neat place anyway. Very pretty. The weather was unbelievably hot and dry. If you spilled water on the ground it would just dry up right away. If you washed clothes and took a shower, you and clothes both would be dry seconds after you got out. It was a real desert. Usually hot as could be. One of the hottest places in the US.

By the time you get to the store to buy some food, the tax office liberated the money from your account, because you owned them.

How can a tax office liberate your money without the court giving them a go, and how can a court give a forced execution of property go without leaving you enough for basic living? Read your laws, there should be something like this somewhere.

If your law does not have this kind of bankruptcy protection, the tax office can technically go to your house with cops and rob you legally with a go from the court, too, regardless you use a card or not.
Thee is a law that lets them take your tax returns if you have outstanding student loans, I'm sure they will have the same thing for any other judgement against somebody that comes from the government. Say soebody is stealing from you and you fight it, cant afford $00 hour legal fees, and you lose. Then you will be hig with a large bill for somebody elses legal fees just for standing up for what are in thory your rights. I think some countries wont let you leave the country or travel if you are in that situation. Right now many Americans with large student loans have left the country, they went to places like India or Africa and got married, got jobs, had children. A normal life. They wont be allowed to get away with that.  The banks want their money. The day isnt far off when they will start hunting down those poor people literally to the ends of the earth. They have a huge PR campaign trying to get public opinion to be for it. Most people aren't. They have all either had student loans themselves or had friends who were harassed by the automated debt collectors.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 04:05:36 am by cdev »
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