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General => General Chat => Topic started by: Alex on April 24, 2018, 12:44:54 pm

Title: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: Alex on April 24, 2018, 12:44:54 pm
I am considering gaining a certification in CE marking and the relevant directives. I am steering my career towards electronic product design and my thinking is to be more competitive. I am generally aware of what is involved, but having the certification would readily demonstrate that?

Two options are:
https://www.tuv-sud.co.uk/uk-en/ce-marking-training-courses#tab_1397654990703735101718 (https://www.tuv-sud.co.uk/uk-en/ce-marking-training-courses#tab_1397654990703735101718)
https://www.bsigroup.com/en-GB/our-services/training-courses/CE-Marking-Essentials-Training-Course/ (https://www.bsigroup.com/en-GB/our-services/training-courses/CE-Marking-Essentials-Training-Course/)
 
What are your thoughts?

Thanks,
Alex
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 24, 2018, 04:22:28 pm
These seem mostly about the general admin & legal side of things, not specific to electronics so may be of limited use compared to, say, an EMC course or something more electronics focussed.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: Alex on April 24, 2018, 05:15:45 pm
Forgive me I wasn't clear enough. I know what to do if product X fails the say EMC test; my indecision has more to do with whether having certified knowledge of the certification framework / legal requirements is worth the £260-£600 in terms of a potentially more competitive CV.

Alex

Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 24, 2018, 05:24:51 pm
Forgive me I wasn't clear enough. I know what to do if product X fails the say EMC test; my indecision has more to do with whether having certified knowledge of the certification framework / legal requirements is worth the £260-£600 in terms of a potentially more competitive CV.

Alex
You can probably get a lot of that from the test house for free
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: Ice-Tea on April 24, 2018, 05:27:13 pm
Forgive me I wasn't clear enough. I know what to do if product X fails the say EMC test; my indecision has more to do with whether having certified knowledge of the certification framework / legal requirements is worth the £260-£600 in terms of a potentially more competitive CV.

Alex
You can probably get a lot of that from the test house for free

Yep, but you can't put that on your CV ;)
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: bob225 on April 24, 2018, 05:32:22 pm
A roll of CE or China Export labels £5 on a well known Chinese site

CE has no real meaning any more imo - you mite as well add a PAT cert to your CV
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: mcinque on April 24, 2018, 08:45:08 pm
A roll of CE or China Export labels
Haven't we cleared in past that "china export" logo is a myth?

However, inspectors doesn't care of the labels or the stickers to decide if a product is CE compliant for EMC, ESD or immunity, they test it. Of course they cannot test everything but if you put a lot of products on the market you can win a free test or (most probable) if a competitor report your product as unsafe it will be tested, and it's a fraud to have it labeled as CE if it doesn't meet the requirements. At this point every conseguence will come automatically.

If you are a small, unknown chinese company and put a random brand name product on the market that isn't CE compliant, noone can touch you, they can only ban your product from eu. But if you are in europe, you can be sued (by customers and by standard regulation offices).

In fact, in my opinion, the issue isn't to have a product just labeled with some logo or mark, the issue is to engineer a product to avoid or minimize risks for users so that you can defend against legal actions if what you put on the market is accused to cause fires, injuries or deaths.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: Retep on April 24, 2018, 09:04:43 pm
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.

Manufacturers outside the EU one needs an authorized representative established in European Economic Area (EEA) to take care of the declaration of conformity; i.e. it's not your problem.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: ebastler on April 24, 2018, 09:15:48 pm
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.

Manufacturers outside the EU one needs an authorized representative established in European Economic Area (EEA) to take care of the declaration of conformity; i.e. it's not your problem.

Sure, and the importer will take care of all testing required, will shield you electronics properly, remove the "harmful substances" from your product, etc.  :palm:

Feel free to produce whatever you produce "made by Britons, for Britons only" -- or continue to play by the rules. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: Gyro on April 24, 2018, 09:28:27 pm
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.

Manufacturers outside the EU one needs an authorized representative established in European Economic Area (EEA) to take care of the declaration of conformity; i.e. it's not your problem.

WTF?  :-//

What makes you think that the average intelligent Briton cares any less about such things than anyone else in a major European economy. You don't have your country flag set but I hope to hell it's not the same one as mine!  :palm:
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: mcinque on April 25, 2018, 09:49:54 am
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU
I don't agree. CE isn't a principle so different from FCC or other certification, it's meant to have a product safe and that can live together with other products. It's some sort of ethic to avoid to customers electrocution, injueries, fires or malfunctions, so it shouldn't matter the country and how you call it, it's a right thing for me: I guess also in UK you have local regulations and want to avoid accidents to customers with electronic/electrical products.

If you want to put your products in U.S.A. you must have it FCC certified. If you want to put your products in EU, you must have it CE certified. The difference is that in EU you can declare it CE without passing before from the standard regulation office (you can do it on your own or make it tested by independent labs) but if/when will be tested by the authorities it must be ok (otherwise you have declared untrue things with all the consequences). It's not because you will be outside EU that you can put on the market an unsafe product.

UK has a respectable number of manufacturers that do EE properly, I don't believe they will stop to do things good just because UK isn't in EU anymore.

and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc.
I believe that also UK have laws and requirements for electronic devices and I guess that laws of physics are a solid reference for all no matter of boundaries.

I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.
Without putting this thread to politics (that means it will be closed), every country has its own regulations and everyone must respect other countries laws if he wants to make business with them.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: nctnico on April 25, 2018, 12:40:58 pm
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.
What makes you think that the average intelligent Briton cares any less about such things than anyone else in a major European economy. You don't have your country flag set but I hope to hell it's not the same one as mine!  :palm:
I think your sarcasm detector is broken  :popcorn:
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: mcinque on April 25, 2018, 03:23:43 pm
It's difficoult to read sarcasm without an emoticon, at least for me.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: Gyro on April 25, 2018, 04:55:20 pm
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.
What makes you think that the average intelligent Briton cares any less about such things than anyone else in a major European economy. You don't have your country flag set but I hope to hell it's not the same one as mine!  :palm:
I think your sarcasm detector is broken  :popcorn:

Yep, I guess it must be - my sarcasm detector didn't register a thing. I tried cross-checking it on another response in a different thread and it didn't pick up anything there either  :-//

230VAC +10%/-6% 50Hz is imposed by the bureaucrats in Brussels, however in little over a year from now the UK is no longer part of the EU and is finally free to choose its own mains voltage and frequency.

I'd better get it checked over and calibrated to be on the safe side!  :D
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: ebastler on April 25, 2018, 05:19:05 pm
I think your sarcasm detector is broken  :popcorn:

Well -- what do you make of an increasingly over-the-top first paragraph (which was clearly somewhat tongue-in-cheek), followed by a totally matter-of-fact second paragraph (which you conveniently omitted when quoting)?

Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.

Manufacturers outside the EU one needs an authorized representative established in European Economic Area (EEA) to take care of the declaration of conformity; i.e. it's not your problem.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: doobedoobedo on April 25, 2018, 09:53:08 pm
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.
What makes you think that the average intelligent Briton cares any less about such things than anyone else in a major European economy. You don't have your country flag set but I hope to hell it's not the same one as mine!  :palm:
I think your sarcasm detector is broken  :popcorn:

Yep, I guess it must be - my sarcasm detector didn't register a thing. I tried cross-checking it on another response in a different thread and it didn't pick up anything there either  :-//

230VAC +10%/-6% 50Hz is imposed by the bureaucrats in Brussels, however in little over a year from now the UK is no longer part of the EU and is finally free to choose its own mains voltage and frequency.

I'd better get it checked over and calibrated to be on the safe side!  :D

HaHa. It's just someone expressing their butthurt that the UK is leaving the EU.

I think our mains voltage will remain at 240V/50Hz for the foreseeable future. We'll keep our laws of gravitation too, the EU are welcome to make up their own :D.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: Retep on May 03, 2018, 05:53:53 pm
HaHa. It's just someone expressing their butthurt that the UK is leaving the EU.

I was indeed butt-hurt that day because I squeezed one out weighting in at least 8 courics (awaiting confirmation by the EFSM). The UK may not be able to change the laws of physics, but it will do so much better without the EU. How well the EU will do without the UK is another matter, but that's their problem. They can stick the whole CE stuff where the sun never shines, back where it came from.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: nctnico on May 03, 2018, 06:11:10 pm
HaHa. It's just someone expressing their butthurt that the UK is leaving the EU.

I was indeed butt-hurt that day because I squeezed one out weighting in at least 8 courics (awaiting confirmation by the EFSM). The UK may not be able to change the laws of physics, but it will do so much better without the EU. How well the EU will do without the UK is another matter, but that's their problem. They can stick the whole CE stuff where the sun never shines, back where it came from.
If the UK leaves the EU (which is getting more and more unlikely) then every device needs to have 4 certifications or more: FCC, CE, Australia, Canada, China, etc if you want to export anything abroad. CE is just a matter of applying a sticker if you are inside the EU but from the outside you'll have to certify. I don't see that as an advantage for a relatively small country like the UK.

Remember the EU has been invented by the Dutch to make trade easier, not harder. Easy trade also means equal rules to have a level playing field where everybody has an opportunity to make money. So far the CE certifications is a very tolerant self-certifying system. Sure it has flaws but it is leaving plenty of room for small businesses to put their equipment on the market.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: Towger on May 03, 2018, 07:31:25 pm
Back to the British Kite Mark, which I believe required independent verification.   
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: ebastler on May 03, 2018, 07:46:51 pm
CE is just a matter of applying a sticker if you are inside the EU but from the outside you'll have to certify.

I don't think that is correct. The same rules apply to EU-based manufacturers and to importers:

No need to use an accredited test lab; but you have to convince yourself that you meet the requirements (using adequate tests, measurements, estimates etc.), and need to be able to provide documentation for that upon request.

Remember the EU has been invented by the Dutch

Really?? What are you referring to?
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 03, 2018, 07:55:25 pm
If the UK leaves the EU (which is getting more and more unlikely) then every device needs to have 4 certifications or more: FCC, CE, Australia, Canada, China, etc if you want to export anything abroad. CE is just a matter of applying a sticker if you are inside the EU but from the outside you'll have to certify. I don't see that as an advantage for a relatively small country like the UK.

Remember the EU has been invented by the Dutch to make trade easier, not harder. Easy trade also means equal rules to have a level playing field where everybody has an opportunity to make money. So far the CE certifications is a very tolerant self-certifying system. Sure it has flaws but it is leaving plenty of room for small businesses to put their equipment on the market.
People love to bitch and moan, but rarely openly appreciate the benefits. If you look at the patent system where a few big players hold huge portfolios and bully everyone with massive legal teams, you see that the current solution could be much worse and actually is in many areas. You don't want a system with a huge price of entry where the advantage is distinctly slanted in favour of a few big players. This becomes a downwards spiral towards a situation where the market is locked up by a few dominant parties. We see this a lot in IT. Any party with a good idea gets bought out long before it becomes a problem or gets stomped into the ground.  That's not good for innovation and that's not good for the consumer. It's not good for anything, except those big players themselves.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: nctnico on May 03, 2018, 08:27:12 pm
CE is just a matter of applying a sticker if you are inside the EU but from the outside you'll have to certify.
I don't think that is correct. The same rules apply to EU-based manufacturers and to importers:
Yes, but sane importers don't want to get burned so they will want paperwork from an accredited lab. Self supplied measurement data won't do so a manufacturer located outside the EU is basically forced to spend the money on having the tests done externally.
Quote
Remember the EU has been invented by the Dutch
Really?? What are you referring to?
Just read up on the history of the EU. It started somewhere in the 50's with Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands having a trade association (Benelux).
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 03, 2018, 08:34:59 pm
Yes, but sane importers don't want to get burned so they will want paperwork from an accredited lab. Self supplied measurement data won't do so a manufacturer located outside the EU is basically forced to spend the money on having the tests done externally.

Just read up on the history of the EU. It started somewhere in the 50's with Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands having a trade asociation (Benelux).
Why won't self supplied measurements do? Having them independently confirmed is a plus, but as long as they're not totally fabricated there's value to them.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: ebastler on May 03, 2018, 08:48:53 pm
CE is just a matter of applying a sticker if you are inside the EU but from the outside you'll have to certify.
I don't think that is correct. The same rules apply to EU-based manufacturers and to importers:
Yes, but sane importers don't want to get burned so they will want paperwork from an accredited lab. Self supplied measurement data won't do so a manufacturer located outside the EU is basically forced to spend the money on having the tests done externally.

Sorry, I still think you are spreading misinformation. Where do you get the idea that importers and EU-based manufacturers are treated differently? Do you have a reference for that?
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: nctnico on May 03, 2018, 08:51:13 pm
Yes, but sane importers don't want to get burned so they will want paperwork from an accredited lab. Self supplied measurement data won't do so a manufacturer located outside the EU is basically forced to spend the money on having the tests done externally.

Just read up on the history of the EU. It started somewhere in the 50's with Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands having a trade asociation (Benelux).
Why won't self supplied measurements do? Having them independently confirmed is a plus, but as long as they're not totally fabricated there's value to them.
In order to do those measurements you'd need to have a test lab (including a very expensive RF test chamber) with traceable calibration at least. Count on spending 6 digits in euro to get the test setup and people trained. And you'll also need to keep current on test methods and test setups. If you are Philips or Sony you can do this in-house but for small companies it is just unaffordable.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: nctnico on May 03, 2018, 08:54:06 pm
CE is just a matter of applying a sticker if you are inside the EU but from the outside you'll have to certify.
I don't think that is correct. The same rules apply to EU-based manufacturers and to importers:
Yes, but sane importers don't want to get burned so they will want paperwork from an accredited lab. Self supplied measurement data won't do so a manufacturer located outside the EU is basically forced to spend the money on having the tests done externally.
Sorry, I still think you are spreading misinformation. Where do you get the idea that importers and EU-based manufacturers are treated differently? Do you have a reference for that?
Ask yourself this question: a Chinese company approaches you to sell their mains powered electronic product in the EU. What do you do to make sure the product is safe to sell and you have no risks of liabilities or needing to recall / replace the product because it doesn't adhere to the safetey and EMC standards?

The only sane answer is: have it tested by an accredited lab.
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: ebastler on May 03, 2018, 08:54:49 pm
Quote
Remember the EU has been invented by the Dutch
Really?? What are you referring to?
Just read up on the history of the EU. It started somewhere in the 50's with Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands having a trade association (Benelux).

That must be how they teach it in Dutch schools. :P

My local version: The predecessor to the EU was the Montanunion (European Coal & Steel Community). Founding members were France, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg. The initiative for founding the ECSC came from France and Germany (Schuman plan, originaly proposed by French foreign minister Robert Schuman to German chancellor Adenauer).
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: ebastler on May 03, 2018, 08:57:03 pm
Ask yourself this question: a Chinese company approaches you to sell their mains powered electronic product in the EU. What do you do to make sure the product is safe to sell and you have no risks of liabilities or needing to recall / replace the product because it doesn't adhere to the safetey and EMC standards?

The only sane answer is: have it tested by an accredited lab.

And why would different considerations apply for a sane EU-based manufacturer?
BTW, what do you mean by "accredited lab"?
Title: Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
Post by: rsjsouza on May 03, 2018, 09:24:57 pm
CE is just a matter of applying a sticker if you are inside the EU but from the outside you'll have to certify.
I don't think that is correct. The same rules apply to EU-based manufacturers and to importers:
Yes, but sane importers don't want to get burned so they will want paperwork from an accredited lab. Self supplied measurement data won't do so a manufacturer located outside the EU is basically forced to spend the money on having the tests done externally.
Third party testing of the final product is not required; if you have enough "shtick" you can produce your own test reports with calibrated equipment traceable to a local standard agency.

Also, RoHS and conflict mineral reports can be obtained from the parts suppliers.

You just need to be very cautious in covering absolutely ALL possible gaps in compliance: not only PCBs and parts but also cables, enclosure, paint, stickers, packaging, etc.