Author Topic: CE marking certification - worth it?  (Read 2475 times)

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Offline Alex

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CE marking certification - worth it?
« on: April 24, 2018, 12:44:54 pm »
I am considering gaining a certification in CE marking and the relevant directives. I am steering my career towards electronic product design and my thinking is to be more competitive. I am generally aware of what is involved, but having the certification would readily demonstrate that?

Two options are:
https://www.tuv-sud.co.uk/uk-en/ce-marking-training-courses#tab_1397654990703735101718
https://www.bsigroup.com/en-GB/our-services/training-courses/CE-Marking-Essentials-Training-Course/
 
What are your thoughts?

Thanks,
Alex
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2018, 04:22:28 pm »
These seem mostly about the general admin & legal side of things, not specific to electronics so may be of limited use compared to, say, an EMC course or something more electronics focussed.
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Offline Alex

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2018, 05:15:45 pm »
Forgive me I wasn't clear enough. I know what to do if product X fails the say EMC test; my indecision has more to do with whether having certified knowledge of the certification framework / legal requirements is worth the £260-£600 in terms of a potentially more competitive CV.

Alex

 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2018, 05:24:51 pm »
Forgive me I wasn't clear enough. I know what to do if product X fails the say EMC test; my indecision has more to do with whether having certified knowledge of the certification framework / legal requirements is worth the £260-£600 in terms of a potentially more competitive CV.

Alex
You can probably get a lot of that from the test house for free
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Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2018, 05:27:13 pm »
Forgive me I wasn't clear enough. I know what to do if product X fails the say EMC test; my indecision has more to do with whether having certified knowledge of the certification framework / legal requirements is worth the £260-£600 in terms of a potentially more competitive CV.

Alex
You can probably get a lot of that from the test house for free

Yep, but you can't put that on your CV ;)

Offline bob225

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2018, 05:32:22 pm »
A roll of CE or China Export labels £5 on a well known Chinese site

CE has no real meaning any more imo - you mite as well add a PAT cert to your CV
 

Offline mcinque

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2018, 08:45:08 pm »
A roll of CE or China Export labels
Haven't we cleared in past that "china export" logo is a myth?

However, inspectors doesn't care of the labels or the stickers to decide if a product is CE compliant for EMC, ESD or immunity, they test it. Of course they cannot test everything but if you put a lot of products on the market you can win a free test or (most probable) if a competitor report your product as unsafe it will be tested, and it's a fraud to have it labeled as CE if it doesn't meet the requirements. At this point every conseguence will come automatically.

If you are a small, unknown chinese company and put a random brand name product on the market that isn't CE compliant, noone can touch you, they can only ban your product from eu. But if you are in europe, you can be sued (by customers and by standard regulation offices).

In fact, in my opinion, the issue isn't to have a product just labeled with some logo or mark, the issue is to engineer a product to avoid or minimize risks for users so that you can defend against legal actions if what you put on the market is accused to cause fires, injuries or deaths.
I'm basically still a rookie and because of this, even with the best intentions, I often say bullshits
 
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Offline Retep

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2018, 09:04:43 pm »
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.

Manufacturers outside the EU one needs an authorized representative established in European Economic Area (EEA) to take care of the declaration of conformity; i.e. it's not your problem.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2018, 09:15:48 pm »
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.

Manufacturers outside the EU one needs an authorized representative established in European Economic Area (EEA) to take care of the declaration of conformity; i.e. it's not your problem.

Sure, and the importer will take care of all testing required, will shield you electronics properly, remove the "harmful substances" from your product, etc.  :palm:

Feel free to produce whatever you produce "made by Britons, for Britons only" -- or continue to play by the rules. Sorry to burst your bubble.
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2018, 09:28:27 pm »
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.

Manufacturers outside the EU one needs an authorized representative established in European Economic Area (EEA) to take care of the declaration of conformity; i.e. it's not your problem.

WTF?  :-//

What makes you think that the average intelligent Briton cares any less about such things than anyone else in a major European economy. You don't have your country flag set but I hope to hell it's not the same one as mine!  :palm:
Chris

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Offline mcinque

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2018, 09:49:54 am »
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU
I don't agree. CE isn't a principle so different from FCC or other certification, it's meant to have a product safe and that can live together with other products. It's some sort of ethic to avoid to customers electrocution, injueries, fires or malfunctions, so it shouldn't matter the country and how you call it, it's a right thing for me: I guess also in UK you have local regulations and want to avoid accidents to customers with electronic/electrical products.

If you want to put your products in U.S.A. you must have it FCC certified. If you want to put your products in EU, you must have it CE certified. The difference is that in EU you can declare it CE without passing before from the standard regulation office (you can do it on your own or make it tested by independent labs) but if/when will be tested by the authorities it must be ok (otherwise you have declared untrue things with all the consequences). It's not because you will be outside EU that you can put on the market an unsafe product.

UK has a respectable number of manufacturers that do EE properly, I don't believe they will stop to do things good just because UK isn't in EU anymore.

and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc.
I believe that also UK have laws and requirements for electronic devices and I guess that laws of physics are a solid reference for all no matter of boundaries.

I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.
Without putting this thread to politics (that means it will be closed), every country has its own regulations and everyone must respect other countries laws if he wants to make business with them.
I'm basically still a rookie and because of this, even with the best intentions, I often say bullshits
 

Online nctnico

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2018, 12:40:58 pm »
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.
What makes you think that the average intelligent Briton cares any less about such things than anyone else in a major European economy. You don't have your country flag set but I hope to hell it's not the same one as mine!  :palm:
I think your sarcasm detector is broken  :popcorn:
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mcinque

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2018, 03:23:43 pm »
It's difficoult to read sarcasm without an emoticon, at least for me.
I'm basically still a rookie and because of this, even with the best intentions, I often say bullshits
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2018, 04:55:20 pm »
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.
What makes you think that the average intelligent Briton cares any less about such things than anyone else in a major European economy. You don't have your country flag set but I hope to hell it's not the same one as mine!  :palm:
I think your sarcasm detector is broken  :popcorn:

Yep, I guess it must be - my sarcasm detector didn't register a thing. I tried cross-checking it on another response in a different thread and it didn't pick up anything there either  :-//

230VAC +10%/-6% 50Hz is imposed by the bureaucrats in Brussels, however in little over a year from now the UK is no longer part of the EU and is finally free to choose its own mains voltage and frequency.

I'd better get it checked over and calibrated to be on the safe side!  :D
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 04:57:58 pm by Gyro »
Chris

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Offline ebastler

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2018, 05:19:05 pm »
I think your sarcasm detector is broken  :popcorn:

Well -- what do you make of an increasingly over-the-top first paragraph (which was clearly somewhat tongue-in-cheek), followed by a totally matter-of-fact second paragraph (which you conveniently omitted when quoting)?

Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.

Manufacturers outside the EU one needs an authorized representative established in European Economic Area (EEA) to take care of the declaration of conformity; i.e. it's not your problem.
 

Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2018, 09:53:08 pm »
Why bother with CE? As meaningless as it is now it will become even less relevant in less than a year when the UK is no longer part of the EU and is no longer bounded by its silly rules like consumer laws, labour laws, international treaties, human rights, the metric system, laws of physics...etc. I can't wait for the day to come when the UK is finally free to do whatever it likes.
What makes you think that the average intelligent Briton cares any less about such things than anyone else in a major European economy. You don't have your country flag set but I hope to hell it's not the same one as mine!  :palm:
I think your sarcasm detector is broken  :popcorn:

Yep, I guess it must be - my sarcasm detector didn't register a thing. I tried cross-checking it on another response in a different thread and it didn't pick up anything there either  :-//

230VAC +10%/-6% 50Hz is imposed by the bureaucrats in Brussels, however in little over a year from now the UK is no longer part of the EU and is finally free to choose its own mains voltage and frequency.

I'd better get it checked over and calibrated to be on the safe side!  :D

HaHa. It's just someone expressing their butthurt that the UK is leaving the EU.

I think our mains voltage will remain at 240V/50Hz for the foreseeable future. We'll keep our laws of gravitation too, the EU are welcome to make up their own :D.
 

Offline Retep

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2018, 05:53:53 pm »
HaHa. It's just someone expressing their butthurt that the UK is leaving the EU.

I was indeed butt-hurt that day because I squeezed one out weighting in at least 8 courics (awaiting confirmation by the EFSM). The UK may not be able to change the laws of physics, but it will do so much better without the EU. How well the EU will do without the UK is another matter, but that's their problem. They can stick the whole CE stuff where the sun never shines, back where it came from.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2018, 06:11:10 pm »
HaHa. It's just someone expressing their butthurt that the UK is leaving the EU.

I was indeed butt-hurt that day because I squeezed one out weighting in at least 8 courics (awaiting confirmation by the EFSM). The UK may not be able to change the laws of physics, but it will do so much better without the EU. How well the EU will do without the UK is another matter, but that's their problem. They can stick the whole CE stuff where the sun never shines, back where it came from.
If the UK leaves the EU (which is getting more and more unlikely) then every device needs to have 4 certifications or more: FCC, CE, Australia, Canada, China, etc if you want to export anything abroad. CE is just a matter of applying a sticker if you are inside the EU but from the outside you'll have to certify. I don't see that as an advantage for a relatively small country like the UK.

Remember the EU has been invented by the Dutch to make trade easier, not harder. Easy trade also means equal rules to have a level playing field where everybody has an opportunity to make money. So far the CE certifications is a very tolerant self-certifying system. Sure it has flaws but it is leaving plenty of room for small businesses to put their equipment on the market.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Towger

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2018, 07:31:25 pm »
Back to the British Kite Mark, which I believe required independent verification.   
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2018, 07:46:51 pm »
CE is just a matter of applying a sticker if you are inside the EU but from the outside you'll have to certify.

I don't think that is correct. The same rules apply to EU-based manufacturers and to importers:

No need to use an accredited test lab; but you have to convince yourself that you meet the requirements (using adequate tests, measurements, estimates etc.), and need to be able to provide documentation for that upon request.

Remember the EU has been invented by the Dutch

Really?? What are you referring to?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 08:08:58 pm by ebastler »
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2018, 07:55:25 pm »
If the UK leaves the EU (which is getting more and more unlikely) then every device needs to have 4 certifications or more: FCC, CE, Australia, Canada, China, etc if you want to export anything abroad. CE is just a matter of applying a sticker if you are inside the EU but from the outside you'll have to certify. I don't see that as an advantage for a relatively small country like the UK.

Remember the EU has been invented by the Dutch to make trade easier, not harder. Easy trade also means equal rules to have a level playing field where everybody has an opportunity to make money. So far the CE certifications is a very tolerant self-certifying system. Sure it has flaws but it is leaving plenty of room for small businesses to put their equipment on the market.
People love to bitch and moan, but rarely openly appreciate the benefits. If you look at the patent system where a few big players hold huge portfolios and bully everyone with massive legal teams, you see that the current solution could be much worse and actually is in many areas. You don't want a system with a huge price of entry where the advantage is distinctly slanted in favour of a few big players. This becomes a downwards spiral towards a situation where the market is locked up by a few dominant parties. We see this a lot in IT. Any party with a good idea gets bought out long before it becomes a problem or gets stomped into the ground.  That's not good for innovation and that's not good for the consumer. It's not good for anything, except those big players themselves.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2018, 08:27:12 pm »
CE is just a matter of applying a sticker if you are inside the EU but from the outside you'll have to certify.
I don't think that is correct. The same rules apply to EU-based manufacturers and to importers:
Yes, but sane importers don't want to get burned so they will want paperwork from an accredited lab. Self supplied measurement data won't do so a manufacturer located outside the EU is basically forced to spend the money on having the tests done externally.
Quote
Remember the EU has been invented by the Dutch
Really?? What are you referring to?
Just read up on the history of the EU. It started somewhere in the 50's with Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands having a trade association (Benelux).
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 08:44:32 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2018, 08:34:59 pm »
Yes, but sane importers don't want to get burned so they will want paperwork from an accredited lab. Self supplied measurement data won't do so a manufacturer located outside the EU is basically forced to spend the money on having the tests done externally.

Just read up on the history of the EU. It started somewhere in the 50's with Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands having a trade asociation (Benelux).
Why won't self supplied measurements do? Having them independently confirmed is a plus, but as long as they're not totally fabricated there's value to them.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2018, 08:48:53 pm »
CE is just a matter of applying a sticker if you are inside the EU but from the outside you'll have to certify.
I don't think that is correct. The same rules apply to EU-based manufacturers and to importers:
Yes, but sane importers don't want to get burned so they will want paperwork from an accredited lab. Self supplied measurement data won't do so a manufacturer located outside the EU is basically forced to spend the money on having the tests done externally.

Sorry, I still think you are spreading misinformation. Where do you get the idea that importers and EU-based manufacturers are treated differently? Do you have a reference for that?
 

Online nctnico

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Re: CE marking certification - worth it?
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2018, 08:51:13 pm »
Yes, but sane importers don't want to get burned so they will want paperwork from an accredited lab. Self supplied measurement data won't do so a manufacturer located outside the EU is basically forced to spend the money on having the tests done externally.

Just read up on the history of the EU. It started somewhere in the 50's with Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands having a trade asociation (Benelux).
Why won't self supplied measurements do? Having them independently confirmed is a plus, but as long as they're not totally fabricated there's value to them.
In order to do those measurements you'd need to have a test lab (including a very expensive RF test chamber) with traceable calibration at least. Count on spending 6 digits in euro to get the test setup and people trained. And you'll also need to keep current on test methods and test setups. If you are Philips or Sony you can do this in-house but for small companies it is just unaffordable.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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