Author Topic: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay  (Read 37984 times)

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Offline SeanB

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Offline Zero999

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2015, 05:35:03 pm »
The simple difference between Capitalism vs Communism if you want it in clear easy to understand terms, think of a pre-school class. There are say, a dozen kids or so, representing society. Money, assets, luxury items, they are the toys for the kids to play with. Capitalism right now, and the wealth inequality right now, would be represented by one child in the class having all of the toys to themselves, and not sharing any of the toys with the rest of the class. You just go look at luxury goods ownership.

Your example assumes a fixed amount of toys. In reality, new value is created.
To a point that's true but the planet only has finite resources and it's bad if a small number of people to hog most of them.

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What matters is not Capitalism vs Communism but freedom vs. oppression. If free people chose to live in a commune and share their assets, it's their privilege. In the same way, if free people chose to throw their money at a successful or a failing CEO, it's their privilege.

Think freedom.
A small number of people hogging most of the resources is oppressive to the majority.

Many oppressive governments have identified themselves as communist but in reality they were capitalist with the government owning all of the resources resulting in repression of the majority and ultimately economic stagnation.

When large companies own most of the wealth they can make it very difficult for others to set themselves up in competition and accumulate a reasonable share of the market. They can lobby the government and get laws made in their favour.
 

Offline TheElectricChicken

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2015, 03:32:25 am »
Think freedom.
A small number of people hogging most of the resources is oppressive to the majority.
[/quote]

Yes, but it's freedom for the little brat who is hogging all the toys. You see that little brat thinks that they are better than everyone else and that really, they are the only person who really matters, so it's about freedom to them too. Like the freedom to slaughter children and babies.
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2015, 03:41:52 am »
Like the freedom to slaughter children and babies.

You are the king of the baffling non-sequitur.
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Offline TheElectricChicken

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2015, 03:44:33 am »
You are the king of the baffling non-sequitur.

Why thank you I do my best for the little people.
 

Offline cimmo

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2015, 04:59:00 am »
Think freedom.
The ultimate in freedom is anarchy.
Is that what you really want?
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Offline TheElectricChicken

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2015, 05:05:30 am »
The ultimate in freedom is anarchy.
Is that what you really want?

that is what we have here in australia, $1500 fines for putting the garbage bin out too early or bringing it in too late, kids cannot sit in the front seat of the car. Every brain fart of the dictatorship is immediate law
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2015, 06:02:37 am »
Do I think multi billion dollar companies CEOs should be payed more than professional athletes?

You can make a pretty good estimate what a professional athlete adds to the bottom line. They mostly deserve what they get paid from an economic perspective, they don't generally fail up either.
 

Offline TheElectricChicken

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2015, 09:06:44 am »
[....]professional athletes?

[....]professional athlete

They have salary caps in sports and sports are no worse off for it. They should have salary caps in politics and for CEO's.

But this can't ever happen in an oppressive dictatorship like USA UK or AU
 

Offline zapta

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Offline Mechanical Menace

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Offline TheElectricChicken

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2015, 01:03:31 pm »
People who argue for this "freedom" think that one day they will be the CEO, so screw themselves today for the chance to earn more in the future. Meanwhile the CEOs are doing everything they can to make sure that those people don't become CEOs themselves.

That is exactly it. reminds me of Savage Garden - Affirmation.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2015, 04:30:42 pm »
Do I think multi billion dollar companies CEOs should be payed more than professional athletes?

You can make a pretty good estimate what a professional athlete adds to the bottom line. They mostly deserve what they get paid from an economic perspective, they don't generally fail up either.

Same goes with CEOs or do you think the board just blindly sets the price?

And professional athletes do fail up more than CEOs in general.

That said, you get your prima donnas like in every other field.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2015, 04:55:21 pm »
People who argue for this "freedom" think that one day they will be the CEO, so screw themselves today for the chance to earn more in the future. Meanwhile the CEOs are doing everything they can to make sure that those people don't become CEOs themselves.

It's a great scam, a variation on the American Dream (TM).

The concept of freedom is difficult for some.  For them, it's all about personal grid, "What system will get me the most?".

Freedom is a core value on its own. Be free and respect the freedom of others.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2015, 05:33:37 pm »
Same goes with CEOs

Show me the equivalent of advanced metrics in sports which can give statistically significance performance estimates. A handful of CEOs which make it their business to guide companies through reorganizations have track records which allow something close to performance analysis you can use for athletes, but that's an outlier. Even if they make strategy decisions other CEOs in the same market don't and have success with it, it doesn't necessarily mean anything (confirmation bias, until he does it a dozen time he could have been lucky ... the differences between bold and foolhardy can only be determined statistically).

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or do you think the board just blindly sets the price?

Pretty much, market conform rates combined with some voodoo and nepotism.

Quote
And professional athletes do fail up more than CEOs in general.

They might not perform as expected after a transfer but if they fail to perform for a season it will be exceedingly obvious and they won't get a large transfer unless they can otherwise generate profits through marketability (also much easier to judge and measure than CEO performance).

Performance metrics are for people on the floor and the field ... not for CEOs.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2015, 05:39:44 pm »
The concept of freedom is difficult for some.

To paraphrase Sartre, freedom is lack of other people. It's impossible on a limited earth.

Everything is a compromise.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2015, 06:07:03 pm »
The concept of freedom is difficult for some.

To paraphrase Sartre, freedom is lack of other people. It's impossible on a limited earth.

Everything is a compromise.

You omitted this from my post "Be free and respect the freedom of others."
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2015, 06:20:48 pm »
You omitted this from my post "Be free and respect the freedom of others."

It's impossible to be free when you're fenced in. Your freedom to be sovereign on your "property" comes at the cost of my freedom to cross it. One of us has to lose out.

Which is okay, we can come up with compromises to limit both my freedom to infringe and the extent to which you can lay claim on the commons. It's all a compromise.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 06:22:57 pm by Marco »
 

Offline TheElectricChicken

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2015, 06:33:20 pm »
It's impossible to be free when you're fenced in. Your freedom to be sovereign on your "property" comes at the cost of my freedom to cross it. One of us has to lose out.

Which is okay, we can come up with compromises to limit both my freedom to infringe and the extent to which you can lay claim on the commons. It's all a compromise.

In france a frenchman once told me they have 'every man's rights' where you can cross any land and there are extra rules like camping or when and how you can light a fire and so on. They are very protective of their beaches. They didn't like the idea of their national treasure Bridget Bardot having a small wall or a personal part of the beach years ago and it had to be removed, and they don't like it when the Saudi king does it either.

France is brilliant for so many reasons.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2015, 06:40:03 pm »
Same goes with CEOs

Show me the equivalent of advanced metrics in sports which can give statistically significance performance estimates. A handful of CEOs which make it their business to guide companies through reorganizations have track records which allow something close to performance analysis you can use for athletes, but that's an outlier. Even if they make strategy decisions other CEOs in the same market don't and have success with it, it doesn't necessarily mean anything (confirmation bias, until he does it a dozen time he could have been lucky ... the differences between bold and foolhardy can only be determined statistically).

Quote
or do you think the board just blindly sets the price?

Pretty much, market conform rates combined with some voodoo and nepotism.

Quote
And professional athletes do fail up more than CEOs in general.

They might not perform as expected after a transfer but if they fail to perform for a season it will be exceedingly obvious and they won't get a large transfer unless they can otherwise generate profits through marketability (also much easier to judge and measure than CEO performance).

Performance metrics are for people on the floor and the field ... not for CEOs.

It's really not too hard to find out:
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+do+companies+measure+performance+of+ceo&oq=how+do+companies+measure+performance+of+ceo
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2015, 07:12:58 pm »
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+do+companies+measure+performance+of+ceo&oq=how+do+companies+measure+performance+of+ceo

And it's mostly a mismatch of financial measures and highly subjective board assessment. The only thing with some reasonable statistics behind it is the performance of given incentive structures, but not the ability of a given CEO to add to the bottom line based on past performance. You can look at an athlete and make a reasonable estimate "this is what it will cost to get him and this will be the likely impact on the bottom line".

Fiorina would have washed out of the pros in a single season in sports.
 

Offline retrolefty

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2015, 08:03:04 pm »
People who argue for this "freedom" think that one day they will be the CEO, so screw themselves today for the chance to earn more in the future. Meanwhile the CEOs are doing everything they can to make sure that those people don't become CEOs themselves.

It's a great scam, a variation on the American Dream (TM).

 Could you give us a glimpse of your dream and how it would work?
 
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2015, 08:09:33 pm »
It's impossible to be free when you're fenced in. Your freedom to be sovereign on your "property" comes at the cost of my freedom to cross it. One of us has to lose out.

It's a continuum, one can be more free or less free, just like happiness.

You aren't trying to pull an ATE, right?

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/30-appeal-to-extremes
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2015, 08:23:36 pm »
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+do+companies+measure+performance+of+ceo&oq=how+do+companies+measure+performance+of+ceo

And it's mostly a mismatch of financial measures and highly subjective board assessment. The only thing with some reasonable statistics behind it is the performance of given incentive structures, but not the ability of a given CEO to add to the bottom line based on past performance. You can look at an athlete and make a reasonable estimate "this is what it will cost to get him and this will be the likely impact on the bottom line".

Fiorina would have washed out of the pros in a single season in sports.

Couldn't agree more. While there may be talk of performance related remuneration in the boardroom, the reality of implementation seems a distant dream.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Tech CEO gets 163 times his average worker's pay
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2015, 10:05:51 pm »
I don't know why you hate freedom so much, Zapta. You say it's a good thing, but then argue for policies that take it away from the majority of people. Freedom at the expense of others isn't freedom, it's the opposite.

English please. No habla Newspeak.
 


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