General > General Technical Chat
Cheques being phased out in Australia by 2030
Halcyon:
--- Quote from: tggzzz on October 17, 2023, 01:40:12 pm ---... But you don't include such failures in your belief that cheques are unnecessary and desirable.
--- End quote ---
I don't believe that... society has demonstrated that as a whole. Whether you look at consumer habits, or government organisations and corporations, people have turned their back on cheques. It's not a belief, it's what's actually happening in the real world.
--- Quote ---Saying "need better oversight" presumes that more management could improve the issue. I don't believe that, since people are people and the systems are enormously complicated conglomeration of individual systems.
--- End quote ---
That's one possible solution. Either the management/oversight is insufficient, or they are doing it wrong. Which is it?
--- Quote ---So you are now presuming that people that have difficulty getting one account should get several accounts! Ridiculous and impractical.
--- End quote ---
Not at all. In fact, I demonstrated the opposite by using a single account for the past 25 years. I explained how a single card can have redundancies built-in. I simply said "many people have" multiple accounts, therefore increasing that redundancy even more. That's simply another option and a choice consumers have if they want to diversify their financial products.
--- Quote ---I'm glad you aren't in charge of ATC, since you would think that ATC controllers would never need to revert to paper strips (containing flight details) thrown across the room from one controller to another.
--- End quote ---
I'm glad I'm not either since I'm neither an expert or trained in controlling aircraft. I have no desire to be.
--- Quote ---And I have said that I rarely use cheques. Nonetheless, they are useful sometimes. The cost justification for stopping them doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
--- End quote ---
You keep saying that, but you haven't explained HOW. I've already outlined some costs associated with keeping a chequing system alive.
TimFox:
I don't know about Australia, but the banking industry in the US seems to have figured out how to process checks automatically at a reasonable cost.
They no longer physically return checks by mail, and many checks go immediately to digital, and it seems to work.
coppice:
--- Quote from: TimFox on October 17, 2023, 11:44:09 pm ---I don't know about Australia, but the banking industry in the US seems to have figured out how to process checks automatically at a reasonable cost.
They no longer physically return checks by mail, and many checks go immediately to digital, and it seems to work.
--- End quote ---
In the UK we don't even submit cheques to the bank any more. We just scan them with our phones using the bank's online app, or at ATM. Only cheques which just won't scan need to be physically submitted. You need to find a full featured ATM, though. Most don't support automated cheque submission. If you go to the big branches in the centre of this city you only get face time with a human if you have something that needs discussing.
TimFox:
Banks in the US also allow submission of checks by phone camera.
The first time we saw a commercial for that here over 10 years ago, my wife and I laughed because we both immediately thought of shooting a 6 x 12 cm image on 120 roll film.
Every ATM I have used at my bank accepts checks for deposit:
The machine reads the check and asks me to verify the amount before swallowing it.
If the check were unreadable, it would reject it.
With the exception of one machine at my local branch that had gone haywire, ATMs seem to be reliable machines for handling paper (checks and currency).
tggzzz:
--- Quote from: Halcyon on October 17, 2023, 11:34:44 pm ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on October 17, 2023, 01:40:12 pm ---... But you don't include such failures in your belief that cheques are unnecessary and desirable.
--- End quote ---
I don't believe that... society has demonstrated that as a whole.
--- End quote ---
I don't understand what you are trying to say. Such system failures do occur, all too often. Yesterday part of Barclays Bank systems failed.
--- Quote ---Whether you look at consumer habits, or government organisations and corporations, people have turned their back on cheques. It's not a belief, it's what's actually happening in the real world.
--- End quote ---
Strawman argument.
You might as well state that people have turned their backs on walking in favour of cars.
--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---Saying "need better oversight" presumes that more management could improve the issue. I don't believe that, since people are people and the systems are enormously complicated conglomeration of individual systems.
--- End quote ---
That's one possible solution. Either the management/oversight is insufficient, or they are doing it wrong. Which is it?
--- End quote ---
Neither.
The systems are so large and complex that no one person or organisation
* can ever understand the whole
* controls the whole in any meaningful way
* and that's equally true inside an organisation as well as the whole banking system
That's the reality, and hoping/believing otherwise leads to futile policy declarations.
Or maybe you think that a corporate mandate to "write error free code" is a practical management strategy!
--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---So you are now presuming that people that have difficulty getting one account should get several accounts! Ridiculous and impractical.
--- End quote ---
Not at all. In fact, I demonstrated the opposite by using a single account for the past 25 years. I explained how a single card can have redundancies built-in. I simply said "many people have" multiple accounts, therefore increasing that redundancy even more. That's simply another option and a choice consumers have if they want to diversify their financial products.
--- End quote ---
Yes, you did, to all intents and purposes. The only way your previous statement (which you conveniently snipped) could have made sense is if you presumed that your experience could be generalised to everybody. Here's what you wrote: "Many people have multiple accounts. It might be debit card account and a seperate credit card. ... If I'm at home and wanting to pay bills online, I have at least 3 different ways of doing it, all from the one bank account."
Your "I'm alright Jack" therefore everybody else could also be alright is naive and doesn't reflect well on you.
I've just read this example of why physical transfer can be useful in some cases: https://twistedsifter.com/2023/10/ive-never-had-a-check-lost-so-you-dont-have-to-worry-tenant-catches-landlord-lying-about-not-receiving-his-rent-and-he-has-video-evidence/ Not definitive of course, but it is illustrative.
--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---I'm glad you aren't in charge of ATC, since you would think that ATC controllers would never need to revert to paper strips (containing flight details) thrown across the room from one controller to another.
--- End quote ---
I'm glad I'm not either since I'm neither an expert or trained in controlling aircraft. I have no desire to be.
--- End quote ---
That's avoiding the directly relevant analogy. Not a good debating tactic, which makes it look like you don't want to concede that your position is weak.
--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---And I have said that I rarely use cheques. Nonetheless, they are useful sometimes. The cost justification for stopping them doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
--- End quote ---
You keep saying that, but you haven't explained HOW. I've already outlined some costs associated with keeping a chequing system alive.
--- End quote ---
You are the one claiming that cheques are "too expensive" in some way. It is up to you to define the absolute expense and to compare it with alternative expenses.
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