General > General Technical Chat
Cheques being phased out in Australia by 2030
tggzzz:
--- Quote from: vk4ffab on October 19, 2023, 09:00:19 am ---
--- Quote from: TimFox on October 18, 2023, 12:55:35 pm ---A comment about needing multiple cards:
In my post above about my experiences with fraudulent charges to my Visa or American Express cards, in both cases I had to wait a few days for a replacement card.
(American Express was willing to FedEx one quickly, but I was literally leaving that morning for Japan.)
While waiting for that replacement, I was able to use the other one.
--- End quote ---
My experience is the opposite. Got scammed with phony checks a couple of time, not for great sums of money, but enough to implement a no checks policy for my business. But have never had a fraudulent charge put on the debit card. But i keep very little money in that account so if i did get scammed, they would not get much.
--- End quote ---
Every time I saw businesses accepting cheques it was in conjunction with either
* a requirement that a cheque cleared before service/goods were delivered, or
* the now-obsolete bank's cheque guarantee mechanismThat seemed entirely reasonable to me; if I had run a business I would have done just that. Nowadays businesses pay third parties to take that risk with electronic payments; the increased costs are offset by convenience. Fine, especially since the consumer doesn't notice.
I've known individuals that have been severely affected by errant electronic transfers. The worst was my bosses' secretary who discovered that she had "lost" half her monthly salary to an unauthorised transfer. The bank agreed it was unauthorised, refunded her money, apologised (but no more) for the <ahem> "inconvenience", said it wouldn't happen again.
The same happened the next month. Oops.
The same happened the third month. WTF?!
The bank admitted they didn't know the source and couldn't stop the transfers. Absolutely gobsmacking!
Finally after 3(?) months, the bank was able to work out that an obscure merchant bank had made a data entry error, and get the transfers stopped.
The little I've since learned about the banking industry leads me to be less than surprised: processes assumes everything is in order and that the bank is, by definition, correct. Example: Halifax and John Munden which falsely jailed an ex-police officer and caused his wife to attempt suicide[1]
[1] https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ids/dotdot/misc/titbits/phantom_ATM_withdrawals.html and http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/18.25.html#subj5
SeanB:
Have had washed cheques, which were really good counterfiets, until you looked closer at them, and could see the background was printed on with an inkjet printer, with the odd dots of cyan and magenta in the yellow, as the printer attempted to imitate a Pantone colour, which would be a solid even colour halftone pattern. They bleached all the background and text off, except for the signatures, and printed it all back, with a near perfect match to the original. However I also had a cancelled cheque from the exact same book to use for comparasion, and aside from the printing, they were nearly identical, except the cheque form they used was from a different cheque printing company, as the tiny logo and name showed up in the location where the original one was, and was different.
Stolen in the return from the bank, and it would be an inside job, seeing as I was the one who used to go to the bank once every few days to do paper handling, either just collecting cheques, handling FOREX paperwork, or even a few times to get change, or to deposit cash. Suggested strongly to use a CIT company after the second armed robbery, where they took my phone, and the bag containing a deposit book..... After that if I absolutely had to, I drove like a minibus taxi, with all stops being classed as optional. Kind of normal in S Africa to drive like that though, and to exceed speed limits as well. I just do not drive drunk, like our one driver, who we joked braked on impact, and who was rarely sober past lunch.
tggzzz:
--- Quote from: SeanB on October 19, 2023, 09:47:16 am ---...
Stolen in the return from the bank, and it would be an inside job,
...
--- End quote ---
Many banks' processes are designed to protect the bank from inside fraud by staff, which is equally possible in electronic fraud and paper fraud.
That happened in the "phantom ATM withdrawal" Halifax and John Munden travesty.
vk4ffab:
--- Quote from: tggzzz on October 19, 2023, 09:32:08 am ---
--- Quote from: vk4ffab on October 19, 2023, 09:00:19 am ---
--- Quote from: TimFox on October 18, 2023, 12:55:35 pm ---A comment about needing multiple cards:
In my post above about my experiences with fraudulent charges to my Visa or American Express cards, in both cases I had to wait a few days for a replacement card.
(American Express was willing to FedEx one quickly, but I was literally leaving that morning for Japan.)
While waiting for that replacement, I was able to use the other one.
--- End quote ---
My experience is the opposite. Got scammed with phony checks a couple of time, not for great sums of money, but enough to implement a no checks policy for my business. But have never had a fraudulent charge put on the debit card. But i keep very little money in that account so if i did get scammed, they would not get much.
--- End quote ---
Every time I saw businesses accepting cheques it was in conjunction with either
* a requirement that a cheque cleared before service/goods were delivered, or
* the now-obsolete bank's cheque guarantee mechanismThat seemed entirely reasonable to me; if I had run a business I would have done just that. Nowadays businesses pay third parties to take that risk with electronic payments; the increased costs are offset by convenience. Fine, especially since the consumer doesn't notice.
I've known individuals that have been severely affected by errant electronic transfers. The worst was my bosses' secretary who discovered that she had "lost" half her monthly salary to an unauthorised transfer. The bank agreed it was unauthorised, refunded her money, apologised (but no more) for the <ahem> "inconvenience", said it wouldn't happen again.
The same happened the next month. Oops.
The same happened the third month. WTF?!
The bank admitted they didn't know the source and couldn't stop the transfers. Absolutely gobsmacking!
Finally after 3(?) months, the bank was able to work out that an obscure merchant bank had made a data entry error, and get the transfers stopped.
The little I've since learned about the banking industry leads me to be less than surprised: processes assumes everything is in order and that the bank is, by definition, correct. Example: Halifax and John Munden which falsely jailed an ex-police officer and caused his wife to attempt suicide[1]
[1] https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ids/dotdot/misc/titbits/phantom_ATM_withdrawals.html and http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/18.25.html#subj5
--- End quote ---
Oh back then just about all business to business dealings were with check, so nothing we did was out of the ordinary, no one in their right minds accepted personal checks though without waiting for clearance or at all because the risk was so high. But it does not take much for a check to bounce, someone over drafted the over draft, someone missed a payment date and the whole accounting system gets thrown out of whack. My business has always used cash accounting, so these things smart when delays happen. Now days with instant bank transfers with OSKO (thats what its called in Australia) the accounts payable in another city can get her done without the minion in another needing petty cash or a check.
I am not so naive to think errors and mistakes do not creep in sometimes and they are bloody terrifying to those that have to endure them, but, whats the alternative? Cash? I have substantial savings there is not a hope in hell I would want that kind of money sitting under my mattress. There is a greater chance my house will burn down that a bank error drains my account. This is Australia after all and the 4 seasons here are summer summer fire and flood and we are in fire season :)
tggzzz:
--- Quote from: vk4ffab on October 19, 2023, 09:21:25 pm ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on October 19, 2023, 09:32:08 am ---
--- Quote from: vk4ffab on October 19, 2023, 09:00:19 am ---
--- Quote from: TimFox on October 18, 2023, 12:55:35 pm ---A comment about needing multiple cards:
In my post above about my experiences with fraudulent charges to my Visa or American Express cards, in both cases I had to wait a few days for a replacement card.
(American Express was willing to FedEx one quickly, but I was literally leaving that morning for Japan.)
While waiting for that replacement, I was able to use the other one.
--- End quote ---
My experience is the opposite. Got scammed with phony checks a couple of time, not for great sums of money, but enough to implement a no checks policy for my business. But have never had a fraudulent charge put on the debit card. But i keep very little money in that account so if i did get scammed, they would not get much.
--- End quote ---
Every time I saw businesses accepting cheques it was in conjunction with either
* a requirement that a cheque cleared before service/goods were delivered, or
* the now-obsolete bank's cheque guarantee mechanismThat seemed entirely reasonable to me; if I had run a business I would have done just that. Nowadays businesses pay third parties to take that risk with electronic payments; the increased costs are offset by convenience. Fine, especially since the consumer doesn't notice.
I've known individuals that have been severely affected by errant electronic transfers. The worst was my bosses' secretary who discovered that she had "lost" half her monthly salary to an unauthorised transfer. The bank agreed it was unauthorised, refunded her money, apologised (but no more) for the <ahem> "inconvenience", said it wouldn't happen again.
The same happened the next month. Oops.
The same happened the third month. WTF?!
The bank admitted they didn't know the source and couldn't stop the transfers. Absolutely gobsmacking!
Finally after 3(?) months, the bank was able to work out that an obscure merchant bank had made a data entry error, and get the transfers stopped.
The little I've since learned about the banking industry leads me to be less than surprised: processes assumes everything is in order and that the bank is, by definition, correct. Example: Halifax and John Munden which falsely jailed an ex-police officer and caused his wife to attempt suicide[1]
[1] https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ids/dotdot/misc/titbits/phantom_ATM_withdrawals.html and http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/18.25.html#subj5
--- End quote ---
Oh back then just about all business to business dealings were with check, so nothing we did was out of the ordinary, no one in their right minds accepted personal checks though without waiting for clearance or at all because the risk was so high. But it does not take much for a check to bounce, someone over drafted the over draft, someone missed a payment date and the whole accounting system gets thrown out of whack. My business has always used cash accounting, so these things smart when delays happen. Now days with instant bank transfers with OSKO (thats what its called in Australia) the accounts payable in another city can get her done without the minion in another needing petty cash or a check.
I am not so naive to think errors and mistakes do not creep in sometimes and they are bloody terrifying to those that have to endure them, but, whats the alternative? Cash? I have substantial savings there is not a hope in hell I would want that kind of money sitting under my mattress. There is a greater chance my house will burn down that a bank error drains my account. This is Australia after all and the 4 seasons here are summer summer fire and flood and we are in fire season :)
--- End quote ---
Yes; all agreed.
But I do have some gold coins secreted away in a hopefully fireproof box. They have increased nicely in value, and, since they are coins of the realm, they are free from capital gains tax :)
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