China undercuts Taiwanese based Goodwill by 50%

[EEVblog]

http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4218760/China-puts-the-squeeze-on-Taiwan

China is putting a competitive squeeze on some of its partners that still use the mainland as a source of low-cost design and manufacturing. Good Will Instrument, a 700-person test and measurement company in Taiwan, is just one of the companies feeling the pinch.

Good Will recorded 2010 revenues of $55 million selling spectrum analyzers, signal generators and other gear as much as 20 percent cheaper than big U.S. rivals such as Agilent and Tektronix.

Now, a growing crowd of China copy cats are going directly to Good Will's global distributors with products that undercut the Taiwan company's prices by as much as 50 percent.

More than 20 China T&M companies now compete with Good Will, up from about six a few years ago. They often copy Good Will and U.S. products slavishly, right down to the look-and-feel of the cases.

"The biggest problem with the China-made products is quality," says Helena Wang, a manager of overseas sales for Good Will. "Some use used LCDs or other components, and the systems are not always well calibrated so they can give inaccurate results," she explains.

But the Chinese companies--under names such as Regal, A10 and Unichem--are getting government backing. The money enables them to send large contingents to big European electronics shows to gain market attention, Wang says.

Dave.

[IanB]

That's typical of a problem I see in the USA all the time. People will always pick the cheapest thing they can lay their hands on, regardless of the quality, or even whether it works effectively.

[Kiriakos-GR]

That's typical of a problem I see in the USA all the time. People will always pick the cheapest thing they can lay their hands on, regardless of the quality, or even whether it works effectively.

I will disagree 

The teardown reviews made by Dave, they do attract allot of interest, mostly from people who do care about quality.
Not all people are effected by this principal equally, but if you love and respect your work,
you will continuously seek quality. 

About China and every corner of this planet, some corporations owned by relatives of the government officials,
they always have some special handling speaking about finance / banking / exports / promotion.

But no matter what they will do, if they do not invest about customer care, there is no way to make a big bang about international sales.

[Uncle Vernon]

Visibly identical Clones make it that much harder, many have the same nameplate. And unfortunately I can see many of the legitimate distributors using this as a reason to maintain uncompetitive margins. Just look at EPSON marketing.

More than one of the teardowns of unsafe product hear have had a legitimate brand label on the case.

Equally worrying in Australia is the regime for validating compliance and approvals. It's not hard to place whatever specification you like on a data sheet and it's not hard to spoof compliance marks. It seems nothing is even type tested now. A paperwork jungle with no one asking questions before someone is injured.

The really dangerous thing here is that in sending Taiwan broke the end result could well be industry mayhem.

[IanB]

I will disagree 

But I'm describing what I see, here in the USA, where I am. It's no good disagreeing when you are not here to see what I see.

It's true that some people will try to pick quality, but most will not. I have seen products pushed out of the US market by a flood of cheap crap that sets people's price expectations lower than any reasonable quality can compete with.

Only just today, for example, I have noticed that Cables Unlimited ( http://www.cablesunlimited.com ) have recently gone out of business. They sold reasonably priced products that had decent quality and actually worked. But doubtless they have been forced out of business by lower priced competing products of dubious quality that may not work.

[Uncle Vernon]

It's true that some people will try to pick quality, but most will not.

I think many would choose quality and reputation if they could but sadly we all face cost pressures, most have a continual battle with the bean counters and the perpetual demand to produce more with less resources. That is an environment that is allowing so much of this junk to be sold. But yes I'd also agree that there are many just to stupid to recognise quality or even medium term cost effectiveness,

I have seen products pushed out of the US market by a flood of cheap crap that sets people's price expectations lower than any reasonable quality can compete with.

Only just today, for example, I have noticed that Cables Unlimited ( http://www.cablesunlimited.com ) have recently gone out of business. They sold reasonably priced products that had decent quality and actually worked. But doubtless they have been forced out of business by lower priced competing products of dubious quality that may not work.

Same situation here and it's a worrying trend, but while I blame idiot consumers and clueless management, I also see much of the established supplier base being equally responsible. You have to deliver what the market demands, in not being responsive to price pressure at the bottom end western manufacturers have allowed even cheaper substandard junk to gain a foothold. (and at times market dominance). 

[Bored@Work]

Good Will Instrument

They are probably better known as GW Instek in the West. We recently lost some respect for them when they botched a repair job. The main reason to buy from them was they are supposed to offer some kind of service. It turned out they weren't better than their mainland Chinese cousins.

Now, a growing crowd of China copy cats are going directly to Good Will's global distributors

Interesting. It was always a problem to buy GW Instek stuff within the EU, because they don't have an authorized distributor in the EU. At least they couldn't name on last time I asked. They have one in Switzerland (which isn't part of the EU). Distributors in the EU either resell instruments from the Swiss distributor or from the gray market.

The problem is that GW Instek's "lifetime" warranty only applies if you buy from an authorized distributor. That means you have to import from Switzerland. And in case of a problem you have to send the instrument back to Switzerland, because GW Instek handles all repairs via their distributors. A distributor then sends the instrument back to Taiwan, or doesn't (as in our case ...) but attempts to perform a "certified" repair under the "guidance" of GW Instek.

Well, as we learned, when things go wrong there, GW Instek goes into hibernation, just like any of their Chinese cousins when it comes  to service and support.

From that point of view Chinese companies going after GW Instek distributors means cheaper instruments with the same lousy service. In other words, it is almost an improvement.

But the Chinese companies--under names such as Regal,

Sounds like EE-Times misspelled Rigol here, or does anyone know of a T&M company called "Regal"?

[rf-loop]

This Taiwan question is not so simple.
Lot of Taiwanese companies use mainland China just as for cheap manufacturing. Lot of products (half produced etc) trawel between mainland and Taiwan island. Trafic is heavy. Some product may even travel once to mainland, next back to Taiwan for some small installation (secured components), then next agen back to other place in mainland etc. Some Taiwanese companies do lot of money using some cheap factories in mainland...  mainland peoples get nothing. This mugging is nearly end of road.

Next possible (develop) step is "one china" including this Taiwan island.
Maybe even some Taiwanese hope this but then there is USA (military) politics. Look world map and you know why USA want keep this Taiwan as a potential base for U.S. Half of whole Taiwan question is U.S. propaganda. U.S. Taiwan downright extortion but hidden with highly secret.

Later (my prognose) Taiwan is  peacefully integrating to mainland China.
All states and territories, including Taiwan province, will have to stop the pillaging of China.
It is going becouse China need slowly stop money loaning  to U.S. becouse U.S. is more bad situation as we many times think example Greege in European union.
Separated Taiwan province do not give any good to anybody but only for U.S. military strategy.

-ugh-

Sorry this, I promise never agen talk so heavy politics.

[ciccio]

I've some GW INSTEK or Good Will labeled instruments, and I've been satisfied with them.
About 20 years ago one  40 MHz analog scope developed an intermittent fault.
It was out of warranty, and was bought from a distributor that had gone out-of-business, so I contacted Good Will in Taiwan describing the fault. They mailed me (at no cost) spare parts, some suggestion for fault-finding  and complete schematics, that allowed me to repair the scope.
I don't know if some of their competitors will offer the same service, even now, or if another company's scope will be serviced in Europe, and not in China.

[rf-loop]

I've some GW INSTEK or Good Will labeled instruments, and I've been satisfied with them.
About 20 years ago one  40 MHz analog scope developed an intermittent fault.
It was out of warranty, and was bought from a distributor that had gone out-of-business, so I contacted Good Will in Taiwan describing the fault. They mailed me (at no cost) spare parts, some suggestion for fault-finding  and complete schematics, that allowed me to repair the scope.
I don't know if some of their competitors will offer the same service, even now, or if another company's scope will be serviced in Europe, and not in China.

Nice.

I know one people who years ago buy chinese made some lamp with dimmer. Later dimmer board have some fail. He go to store where he buy this. No one know anything and "product stopped years ago" no spare parts, no service.

But this guy find small information about company who have make it in China. He find some people name, address and only phone number in internet but no any email or sides.

Well, he think he try. He draw small picture by hand abiut this card. Then he enclose some USD inside letter. He send (from europe) this letter with drawing and english explanation to this address. He think, some dollars, no matter.

I do not know exactly how long time but some x month.  He get letter from China.
Inside soft letter was this right card and Company boss personal letter and also some explanation how to change it. Wow, and also some kind of apologize abiut fail. Also they promise what all help he need with this company products you are welcome to ask.

chinese...

[nukie]

Try that with Rigol. My DS5102CE, a generation earlier than the popular rigol DS1052 has some serious user-interface bug. I contacted Rigol for the latest firmware, all I got was "This product has been discontinued". And that it was like two months since it was discontinued.

On the other hand, Uni-T has great support as demonstrated by a few members on this forum. I also have first hand experience with them, they really do care about their customers.

China under cutting other countries for now it is, until their workers wages starts to increase. GW Instek makes great products and quite a innovative company. I hope they pull through.

It was out of warranty, and was bought from a distributor that had gone out-of-business, so I contacted Good Will in Taiwan describing the fault. They mailed me (at no cost) spare parts, some suggestion for fault-finding  and complete schematics, that allowed me to repair the scope.
I don't know if some of their competitors will offer the same service, even now, or if another company's scope will be serviced in Europe, and not in China.

[rf-loop]

Try that with Rigol. My DS5102CE, a generation earlier than the popular rigol DS1052 has some serious user-interface bug. I contacted Rigol for the latest firmware, all I got was "This product has been discontinued". And that it was like two months since it was discontinued.

This is one reason why I stop all business with brand name Rigol.

And this continue as long as they customer care is nearly as zero even if (some) products are semi good.
Also this all hassle with "overseas" customer care where nobody do not know what is Rigol official things and what are some  distributor things. Confused also with rigol/rigolna case. Who is who and who is responsible about aftersales customer care. maybe really nobody. Just like talk to walls. Why I knock my head to wood for nothing -- there are other Chinese companies. They Rigol and some others  do not understand that competite only with price is ending road. Why they can not learn anything from companies who have make good brand tens of years. They give service manuals, they listen customers, they do not afraid copycats as paranoic - and they win.

[Bored@Work]

They mailed me (at no cost) spare parts, some suggestion for fault-finding  and complete schematics, that allowed me to repair the scope.

The only "schematics" we got from GW Instek was showing the connectors of the power supply. The only suggestion for fault-finding was to measure the voltages on those connectors. Since the voltages are silkscreened on the power supply PCB the "schematics" weren't really needed for that. Oh, and we got some "lecture" about their "lifetime" warranty.

When the power supply turned out to be OK, GW Instek insisted the instrument needed to be sent back via the distributor. Although we repeatedly asked for a direct contact with a service center and the availability of spare parts. But no, it must be sent via the distributor, no exception, no spare parts.

GW Instek went into hibernation mode when things went south with the distributor, similar to what one would expect from a typical rubbish Chinese manufacturer. I had GW Instek higher on my list than typical Chinese rubbish manufacturers. Not any more. They are just the same - manufacturers of throw-away equipment. Only that you pay more for service you don't get.
I  say it is a good thing when Chinese rubbish manufacturers now undercut GW Instek rubbish by 50%.

[ciccio]

The only "schematics" we got from GW Instek was showing the connectors of the power supply. The only suggestion for fault-finding was to measure the voltages on those connectors.

Sorry, I was reporting something that happened about 20 years ago.
Maybe they have changed politics, or people, or maybe the size of the company has increased.
Fortunately I had no more needs for their services.

[saturation]

From the article, I presume they use Instek as a comparative benchmark for Chinese labeled T&M gear, since they've been around for 30+ years, have an established reputation, and have some of their finances publicly available through the Taiwan stock exchange.  Based on their Capitalization of earnings and dividends in these reports, they are down from 2008, which was up from 2007.  Since all of industry was hit by the economy of 2008, that's actually a good show as they profited when everyone was down.

http://emops.tse.com.tw/emops_all.htm

Enter Code 2423

Cash dividends ~ profit, and they have been distributed every year for 5 years, although lower in the past 2.  Note these are Taiwanese dollars, to US is 1 : 0.04.

If the Rigol et. al. clan were eroding Instek markets purely, it should be hurting year after year.  Assuming the stock reports aren't false, I can only presume the growth of the Rigol et. al group are also taking markets that Instek hasn't penetrated.

[FreeThinker]

Good Will Instrument

They are probably better known as GW Instek in the West. We recently lost some respect for them when they botched a repair job. The main reason to buy from them was they are supposed to offer some kind of service. It turned out they weren't better than their mainland Chinese cousins.

Now, a growing crowd of China copy cats are going directly to Good Will's global distributors

Interesting. It was always a problem to buy GW Instek stuff within the EU, because they don't have an authorized distributor in the EU. At least they couldn't name on last time I asked. They have one in Switzerland (which isn't part of the EU). Distributors in the EU either resell instruments from the Swiss distributor or from the gray market.

The problem is that GW Instek's "lifetime" warranty only applies if you buy from an authorized distributor. That means you have to import from Switzerland. And in case of a problem you have to send the instrument back to Switzerland, because GW Instek handles all repairs via their distributors. A distributor then sends the instrument back to Taiwan, or doesn't (as in our case ...) but attempts to perform a "certified" repair under the "guidance" of GW Instek.

Well, as we learned, when things go wrong there, GW Instek goes into hibernation, just like any of their Chinese cousins when it comes  to service and support.

From that point of view Chinese companies going after GW Instek distributors means cheaper instruments with the same lousy service. In other words, it is almost an improvement.

But the Chinese companies--under names such as Regal,

Sounds like EE-Times misspelled Rigol here, or does anyone know of a T&M company called "Regal"?

I have an Isotech scope (RS badged engineered) and it is a GW Instek scope, so do they not qualify for authorised distributor status? RS are just as bad when it comes to support as once a product is delisted support seems to dry up too. No service manuals or schematics, only 'This product is discontinued'. Managed to track down a similar product (from GWInstek) and down load those , but you don't have to be Chinese to give PPS (piss poor service)

[Bored@Work]

I have an Isotech scope (RS badged engineered) and it is a GW Instek scope, so do they not qualify for authorised distributor status?

I don't know, you have to ask GW Instek. I guess there is a reason they sell a badge-engineered version.

but you don't have to be Chinese to give PPS (piss poor service)

Sure. But Chinese  can write the book on piss-poor service. And a supplement. And teach lessons. And make the movie. And start a franchise.

[Kiriakos-GR]

I will disagree 

But I'm describing what I see, here in the USA, where I am. It's no good disagreeing when you are not here to see what I see.

Ok lets exchange of what we see 

In Greece every Micky Mouse  DMM or electrical device, comes from China with large fonts of " American technology " lots of red and white stripes in the corners of the package,  and it looks like that those Chinese they beg to dress up like an American so to attract the European who has poor education, and that he will trust the external package because of the large American flag on it.

Does this Micky Mouse stuff do sales ?  Yes but very few, its products found mostly in the baskets in the street, and in very few shops.

Amazingly UNI-T does not move a finger , no gifts no advertising, no large scale web promotion,
with just a very basic in quality web site, with just few friendly technicians answering the emails from people who need help,
they managed to do sales , and the good word goes by mouth to mouth.
They operate so silently, but even so, they are in a road of success.

In Greece the 80% goes for quality, why ?  simply because Greece is the cross road of east with the west world.
And the Greeks are very trained buyers.
My own father trained me to appreciate quality, I will do the same to my own kids.
   
   

[Uncle Vernon]

And the Greeks are very trained buyers.

Hell yeah they have managed to buy millions more than they can ever repay.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Speak with the wall,  that's the only one who has ears for you.

[FreeThinker]

Speak with the wall,  that's the only one who has ears for you.

While I agree with what you are saying, your answer is simple - DON'T read him!. You can (apparrantly) put him on your twit list in your profile and his responses will not appear, your choice, Just play nice and enjoy the forum 

[saturation]

An example of Goodwill potential fate is the fate of Xytronic.  It has a reputation, but over the years its been diluted by their OEM model and pressure from the Hakko work alikes like Aoyue and others.

Their stations still are good, but reports of their quality control is mixed so I'd only consider it a buy if you examine it personally to QC its build and return it to the dealer if it bombs.

http://www.xytronic.com/corp.htm

http://www.xytronic-usa.com/shop/

In their case, they also compete with folks like Hakko, Weller, Oki, JBC, Ersa for a product that in general, has very long lifespans.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Speak with the wall,  that's the only one who has ears for you.

While I agree with what you are saying, your answer is simple - DON'T read him!. You can (apparently) put him on your twit list in your profile and his responses will not appear, your choice, Just play nice and enjoy the forum 

Hi FreeThinker , as one productive person speaking to another productive person,
I would say that I had never use the ignore list.
He had removed (edit) the 3/4 of the insults, but its good to know who has the tendency to act like that,
so to be aware. 

Regards,
Kiriakos.

[SgtRock]

--Our friend from the land of the blue sky and the wine dark sea has said:

"And the Greeks are very trained buyers. My own father trained me to appreciate quality, I will do the same to my own kids."

--Good Lord, all he was trying to do was uphold quality. He is working family man, not some suit from the ministry. I see a love of county and honorable pride in this statement. I'll be damned  if I can see a thing wrong with it. Certainly there is no call to insult the man's nationality. Try doing without the word electron from the from Gk. elektron "amber" (Homer, Hesiod, Herodotus).

--Uncle V might want to see to his own eye rather than worrying about the spec of solder Kiriakos might have in his. There is nothing wrong with the Greek people. So the government has made some mistakes. Here in America we just had a big argument about money. The people who won the argument said that in order to avoid default we had to borrow a couple more trillions of dollars. The also said it was financially reckless not to borrow, and that people who argued otherwise were terrorists.

--Very soon the USA is going to face exactly what the Greeks are facing. And when we do I will bet you drachmas to donuts Kiriakos will not insult us. He might say "I told you so", and he will be right. But I am guessing he will not be dealing any sniveling snarks from the bottom of the deck.

--By the way. How does one edit one's own posts? I did not notice anything marked edit on the page. Best Regards
Clear Ether from Gk. "aither" upper air

[Kiriakos-GR]

Greece is an major cross road about products and services.
I have see tons of goods from Taiwan and China and Korea and Singapore, years ahead than the other nations.
For more than 40 years Europe was counting on their own products, or the ones that was coming from the East.
The American products never was a "first choice ". 
The worldwide market was flooded with products from the East in the last 15 years.

And just to be honest I will not let the Japanese out of the equation,
for example at the 1978  their Toyota had major issues with the head lamps,
and just a bumpy road was enough for those sealed head lights to burn and die,
and you was forced to buy the complete head light again.

I am not riding my wooden stick with the wooden horse head and dance in the street 
But I will not tolerate any international parental control at my 42 , from some one at the sunset of his life.
 
And no matter the financial problems of the market, and the political mistakes,
I have 5000 years of history, and because I am crazy and proud I will make them 10.000