Author Topic: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.  (Read 67939 times)

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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #175 on: October 07, 2018, 03:31:05 pm »
This thread grows because posters are divided majorly into two camps only, as I stated previously, which are "want to believe" camp vs "the pudding" camp.  :-DD

I think there's a third camp that agree with Tim (T3sl4co1l) that it's technically feasible, but that the reporting is suspect, both from a quality of journalism point of view and a geopolitical/realpolitik point of view. That's certainly where I'd place myself.

There's a fog around this, I don't think it will clear anytime soon, and trying to penetrate into the fog by logical deduction is difficult, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted. Misinformation and contributed "factoids" that are plain wrong don't help.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #176 on: October 07, 2018, 04:05:10 pm »

What about cloning an entire company?

The other common type of cloning is when the production factory runs an extra undocumented shift.

Wow, great eye opener. Textbook MitM.

Indeed. For those who didn't follow the link, some counterfeiters set up a whole organization so that the factories in China and Taiwan producing the counterfeits didn't know that they were. They thought that they were legitimately contract manufacturing for NEC.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline apis

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #177 on: October 07, 2018, 05:13:36 pm »
DHS says no reason to doubt firms' China hack denials: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-cyber-dhs/dhs-says-no-reason-to-doubt-firms-china-hack-denials-idUSKCN1MH00Y

I think that nails it dead, Bloomberg's story is fake news.
I wouldn't dismiss it completely just because of that. Historically it's been pretty common for different government intelligence agencies not knowing what the others are doing, and the us intelligence branch of government is absolutely enormous as far as I know (which admittedly isn't much).
 

Online Marco

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #178 on: October 07, 2018, 06:31:09 pm »
I just don't see an angle for the US government to want to cover this up at the moment. They have no problem declaring the embassy incidents attacks even in the absence of physical evidence (no trauma showed up on MRI for most of the affected persons, the diagnosis is purely based on symptoms). Why would they cover for China when Trump seeks justification for his trade measures? The presumed attack is relatively low tech all things considered so it's not like revealing the evidence would matter in that respect.

The companies I can kind of understand, they have commercial interests in China ... but even then Apple is extremely image conscious, blatantly lying seems very unlikely when actual evidence could pop up from way too many sources if this were true.

PS. if people in intelligence agencies are purposely keeping this information from the White House they better pray Trump is gone before they get found out.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 06:33:45 pm by Marco »
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #179 on: October 07, 2018, 06:45:44 pm »
Counterintelligence is responsibility of CIA, not DHS or FBI. If this is true story, it can have "top secret" seal for decades. Other option is just stock fraud or (unlikely) dumb defamation. We will see soon because investors are very unhappy - shares plunged 50%.

Literally wrong on every fact.

Thank you for clarifying that DHS does Counterintelligence on US soil. Info you provided does not say anything about FBI Counterintelligence operations. So I can count only one fact I was wrong, maybe two, not every fact as you say.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 06:50:06 pm by ogden »
 

Offline apis

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #180 on: October 07, 2018, 06:58:22 pm »
Why would they cover for China when Trump seeks justification for his trade measures?
Well, that is a motive for making up a story like this though. Wouldn't be the first time Trump comes up with "alternative facts" to suit his interests.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #181 on: October 07, 2018, 07:23:32 pm »
Counterintelligence is responsibility of CIA, not DHS or FBI. If this is true story, it can have "top secret" seal for decades. Other option is just stock fraud or (unlikely) dumb defamation. We will see soon because investors are very unhappy - shares plunged 50%.

Literally wrong on every fact.

Thank you for clarifying that DHS does Counterintelligence on US soil. Info you provided does not say anything about FBI Counterintelligence operations. So I can count only one fact I was wrong, maybe two, not every fact as you say.

Go and read it again, do a text search within the message if you have to for counterintelligence. All three points you made about the FBI, CIA and DHS in relation to counterintelligence are refuted from authoritative sources.

This is exactly what I was talking about the other day, you make wrong statements on a subject that you are ill-informed on. Then you quibble when someone corrects you, deliberately ignoring anything that doesn't suit your case, often shifting the goalposts in the process. Eventually you reach the point where you start making rude remarks about the character, intelligence or educational attainment of the person who corrected you - except this time if you do it you will be hoist by your own petard.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #182 on: October 07, 2018, 07:42:12 pm »
Go and read it again, do a text search within the message if you have to for counterintelligence. All three points you made about the FBI, CIA and DHS in relation to counterintelligence are refuted from authoritative sources.

Go and read my post again, show where I said "on domestic soil". Those suspect factories planting chips were located in the US or am I missing something?

Quote
Eventually you reach the point where you start making rude remarks about the character, intelligence or educational attainment of the person who corrected you

You are stepping over the line here. Let's continue in PM and check our records of you versus me insulting others, with CC: moderator.
 

Online Marco

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #183 on: October 07, 2018, 07:53:10 pm »
Well, that is a motive for making up a story like this though. Wouldn't be the first time Trump comes up with "alternative facts" to suit his interests.
I don't think think Trump could tell the NSA to activate 18 deep cover moles inside US companies to trick Bloomberg.
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #184 on: October 07, 2018, 08:02:49 pm »
Go and read it again, do a text search within the message if you have to for counterintelligence. All three points you made about the FBI, CIA and DHS in relation to counterintelligence are refuted from authoritative sources.

Go and read my post again, show where I said "on domestic soil". Those suspect factories planting chips were located in the US or am I missing something?

And there the moving of goalposts starts ...

Quote
Quote
Eventually you reach the point where you start making rude remarks about the character, intelligence or educational attainment of the person who corrected you

You are stepping over the line here. Let's continue in PM and check our records of you versus me insulting others, with CC: moderator.

No. These arguments you seek out might amuse you, but they annoy me (and I suspect others too) the very last thing I am going to do is give you carte blanche to annoy me in PMs too. Why don't you give it rest, he said wearily.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline apis

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #185 on: October 07, 2018, 08:21:28 pm »
Well, that is a motive for making up a story like this though. Wouldn't be the first time Trump comes up with "alternative facts" to suit his interests.
I don't think think Trump could tell the NSA to activate 18 deep cover moles inside US companies to trick Bloomberg.
It would only take one, not particularly deep cover, mole in Bloomberg.
(Maybe just a phone-call to the director: "hey, it's POTUS/CIA/<initialism>, we'd like you to run this story for us." :))
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 08:35:06 pm by apis »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #186 on: October 07, 2018, 09:02:38 pm »
I think that nails it dead, Bloomberg's story is fake news. Reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Diaries

Now we know the story is bogus, the question is how Bloomberg managed to make such a huge cock-up. Unquestioning conservative blogs are already using it as justification to increase the "war" with China, so maybe that provides the answer.
With the track record the various agencies have, why would this "nail the story dead"? If there's something like a gag order the DHS isn't going to spill the beans. It does put the pressure on Bloomberg to come up with something more tangible, although a more suspicious mind might wonder whether they'd be allowed to produce such proof at this point in time. It's obviously also nearly impossible to disprove the story.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #187 on: October 07, 2018, 09:06:51 pm »
Here's the only Bloomberg pic, and we can all smell the bullshit in a 3-pin package...

Why sit on this for over 3 years? The government probe started in 2015 with Amazon's discovery, supposedly.
Aww poor businesses, banks that still have a back door to a foreign hostile that is still open? Who cares about the DoD, Navy ships, drones, government agencies infiltrated.  :palm:
 
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Offline daqq

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #188 on: October 07, 2018, 09:14:05 pm »
Quote
Here's the only Bloomberg pic, and we can all smell the bullshit in a 3-pin package...
Er, no, there were other pics of said park, see initial post link. It looks like a 6 pin package, very similar to a balun:

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2580617.pdf?_ga=2.1792241.1799087673.1538946562-1417168484.1514813103

I can see such a device hooked up to some SPI bus that talks to an SPI memory, pretending to be the memory... or any number of other possibilities.
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
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Offline cdev

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #189 on: October 07, 2018, 11:04:28 pm »
I'd like to know a lot more about what is supposed to be in that very generic looking tiny part.

It looks just like some small RF transformers and low pass filters that I have. I think they were made by either TDK or Murata.


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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #190 on: October 07, 2018, 11:08:33 pm »
I'd like to know a lot more about what is supposed to be in that very generic looking tiny part.

It looks just like some small RF transformers and low pass filters that I have. I think they were made by either TDK or Murata.
Wasn't that the point, that it looked like a mundane and innocuous part?
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #191 on: October 07, 2018, 11:29:07 pm »
I wonder how many people have already gone to town on their motherboards, removing this component, only to realise it was actually required for the machine to boot.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #192 on: October 07, 2018, 11:43:53 pm »
Also this was targeting servers. Servers have no RF capable parts on.

Actually I don’t have any  Supermicro ones available to me but after scanning tens of high res motherboard pictures there’s nothing that looks even remotely like a balun on any server motherboards. There’s decoupling, power conversion, protection, identifiable ICs, transistors/MOSFETs/diodes, connectors and bugger all else. anything with enough pins is identifiable.
 
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #193 on: October 07, 2018, 11:50:08 pm »
C'mon, how hard is that, to de-solder that suspected component, put it side by side with a genuine one under the microscope, start to sand both layer by layer exposing it's internal while comparing ?  :palm:
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 11:51:49 pm by BravoV »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #194 on: October 07, 2018, 11:58:30 pm »
Why would they cover for China when Trump seeks justification for his trade measures?
Well, that is a motive for making up a story like this though. Wouldn't be the first time Trump comes up with "alternative facts" to suit his interests.

This is not a Trump thing (and I'm no Trump fan).

This has been going of at least since the 1950s in the US (and other countries).  See Operation Mocking Bird
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #195 on: October 08, 2018, 12:09:03 am »
Why would they cover for China when Trump seeks justification for his trade measures?
Well, that is a motive for making up a story like this though. Wouldn't be the first time Trump comes up with "alternative facts" to suit his interests.

This is not a Trump thing (and I'm no Trump fan).

This has been going of at least since the 1950s in the US (and other countries).  See Operation Mocking Bird

If this is true for bad mouthing China, the question is why they had to sacrifice "American" companies ?

They could just make & publicize it without mentioning specific company names.  :-//

Offline BravoV

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #196 on: October 08, 2018, 12:19:53 am »
-> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-cyber-apple/apple-tells-congress-it-found-no-signs-of-hacking-attack-idUSKCN1MH0YQ

Quote ...

"Bloomberg said on Friday it stood by its story, which was based on 17 anonymous sources. Some allegations were based on fewer accounts or even a single unnamed source, Apple noted in its letter."


Offline mtdoc

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #197 on: October 08, 2018, 12:23:53 am »
Why would they cover for China when Trump seeks justification for his trade measures?
Well, that is a motive for making up a story like this though. Wouldn't be the first time Trump comes up with "alternative facts" to suit his interests.

This is not a Trump thing (and I'm no Trump fan).

This has been going of at least since the 1950s in the US (and other countries).  See Operation Mocking Bird

If this is true for bad mouthing China, the question is why they had to sacrifice "American" companies ?

They could just make & publicize it without mentioning specific company names.  :-//

They didn't bad mouth American companies. They of course had to mention which companies products were involved or the accusation would have no teeth at all.  They also had to report those companies responses.

Unless a neutral 3rd party analysis of the hardware is done and confirms the report - it will be clear this was just a propaganda piece.  Nevertheless, it will have succeeded in planting more anti-China feelings in the populace and help support the new Cold War.

No one will remember that the original report was never confirmed. No company other than perhaps relatively small Supermicro will have been negatively affected.  But the anti-China sentiment will have been seeded. Mission accomplished.

It's no different than the "Russia hacking" hysteria. No one will notice that there were never any actual prosecutions of Russian hackers, yet the anti-Russia sentiment will remain.  This is how propaganda works.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 12:26:37 am by mtdoc »
 

Online Marco

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #198 on: October 08, 2018, 12:46:21 am »
This is not a Trump thing (and I'm no Trump fan).

This has been going of at least since the 1950s in the US (and other countries).  See Operation Mocking Bird
The problem is the level of conspiracy necessary to keep evidence from any of the companies and from government from leaking if Bloomberg's report was true. Unless there's a mountain of National Security Letters out there keeping everyone involved living in fear I just don't see how it can be. That mountain of NSLs would mean it either goes to the top/Trump or the security agencies are playing traitor and keeping Trump out of the loop. Trump has no reason to keep this secret if he knows about it.

It's easier to just assume Bloomberg cobbled together a conspiracy theory from misleading information (intentionally spread or not) and subsequently asking some useful idiots leading questions.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Chinese manufacturer puts hardware backdoor onto Supermicro server boards.
« Reply #199 on: October 08, 2018, 12:51:27 am »
That chip looks a lot like a six legged version of what I call PCB resident 'feed through' caps.. I dont know the technical name for them. They are kind of an RFI filter.

They are basically bypass caps with two legs. (although they might also incorporate ferrite materials) (these bypass caps only have three terminals, the ones at the ends are the DC path and the two on the sides at the middle are the ground that has the RF bypassed to it.)

 They are kind of a 2D, semi-planar version of the old feed through caps that penetrate a case wall.

They have the same function. There- using a lower quality part might reduce the effectiveness of RFI bypassing.

Which might be all that was required.

In order to enable some back-channel attacks (which could then only be pursued from near the machine physically) all that likely needs to be done is sabotage formerly effective RFI suppression methods.

Making it so a nearby listener might be able to extract enough information to break whatever encryption keys was being used.

This attack would only work if the attacker was within a few meters, most likely. So basically they would have to have access to the data center the servos were in.

Although I have no idea how it fits in, liberalizing services is proposed to double (probably many times more than that, just imagine how much will be saved on wages, money which is now 'wasted' to rent extraction. (/sarcasm)

The hype proposes that business profits globally could be increased many fold by increasing efficiency, which increasingly means moving jobs to the digital economy.

One of the main questions is where will the trade rules require that servers and the actual information be located?

One of the biggest roadblocks to making businesses so very much much much more efficient and reducing costs to the bone (and an eventual shakeout within which most of those businesses get absorbed into others) is who gets to say where the important information thats stored on servers will be.

Can governments - despite their commitments to trade liberalization, think of some excuse to hold it back (and presumably steer that business to well connected insiders in their own country, even though some other provider of the service may be cheaper)

A business like Amazon's 2nd biggest asset after their brand name is their technology, which they (probably) want to keep close to their vests. (I would expect them to!) However, agreements between countries commit countries to switch from in house provision of services to low bidders, biding in an international competition.

Could the country whose information is at issue - or the country whose flag of convenience a corporation flies require some parts be inside their physical country and control, even when its not national security related?

(National security is basically the only area that gets a free pass to remain under individual nation's control)

I have no idea what they are arguing these days. But you can bet it isnt good for the little guy, whose business will likely be put under extreme pressure by global competition, if there is any money to be made in it.

This kind of 'incident' real or not, may be part of the arguments in some way. Countries are jockeying for position in this huge shift and people like us can only guess at their long term strategies.





« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 01:30:34 am by cdev »
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