Chinese solder wire brands?

[Monkeh]

This is where sticking with a well known brand is really useful IME, as they actually provide complete information. 

But is it not the case that well-known brands only produce lead-free solder?

Farnell have around a hundred options in stock for leaded solder wire. Filtering for 'well-known brands', if we consider house brands not well known, reduces that to only around 80. They have, quite literally, tonnes of it.

I MUCH prefer to use leaded solder - it just works better. Unfortunately I can't buy it from the big players any more.

Meanwhile I haven't bothered touching a roll of leaded solder in a while, because there's no upside to using it - when you use appropriate solder and tools.

If nobody is producing it (unlikely when it's still required in many applications!), I suggest you stock up from some of those thousands of rolls..

[Bud]

"I know that branded solder purchased from local electronics stores is a much safer bet"
That's a pretty silly statement, given the largely global nature of the economy.
Many "branded" solders actually originate from China (more specifically, the Asia Pacific region) - which is growing some 10 times faster than the domestic U.S.  market.
Many largest "Chinese" solder manufacturers are seeing major investments by "Western" asset management firms.

Branding doesn't mean much of anything anymore.
Many top brands are simply manufactured by various licensed manufacturing plants, which have increasingly seen sourcing in China.

Tell me who in China makes solder for Kester, and I will buy from that Chinese factory, not from Kester. Tell me who makes solder for other Western brands. Until you tell me that, "While anything from China is a gamble" is spot on and it is Your statement which is silly.

BTW if you will continue copy-paste your posts, you may be seen as a bot and banned from the forum. Keep that in mind.

[SteveThackery]

Farnell have around a hundred options in stock for leaded solder wire.

When I tried to buy leaded solder from RS they refused to sell it to me as I didn't have a business account. I understand Farnell have the same policy. Presumably it arises from the regulations around leaded solder?

[tooki]

Farnell have around a hundred options in stock for leaded solder wire.

When I tried to buy leaded solder from RS they refused to sell it to me as I didn't have a business account. I understand Farnell have the same policy. Presumably it arises from the regulations around leaded solder?

At least prior to Brexit, the relevant regulation was REACH, which bans the sale of lead products to consumers.

From what I hear, US-based vendors (DigiKey, Mouser, and many smaller ones) will happily sell leaded solder to consumers in Europe.

[SteveThackery]

See the screenshot in my post above.  I can't buy leaded solder from any of the European vendors.  I'm sure I could buy it from China, who famously couldn't give a toss about EU regulations.

[Monkeh]

I can't buy leaded solder from any of the European vendors.

You appear to have tried.. one.

You could also just try getting some decent lead-free..

[coppice]

See the screenshot in my post above.  I can't buy leaded solder from any of the European vendors.  I'm sure I could buy it from China, who famously couldn't give a toss about EU regulations.

You can't buy leaded solder as a consumer, but you can pure pure lead sheeting from any roofing specialist. Its kinda silly, but rules tend to be. Leaded solder is still used for some applications exempted from RoHS regulations, such as some medical applications. Its still available for compliant customers.

[SteveThackery]

I can't buy leaded solder from any of the European vendors.

You appear to have tried.. one.

You could also just try getting some decent lead-free..

The same regulations apply to all of them! 

I hate using lead-free - the iron needs to be stinking hot, it doesn't wet the surfaces as well as leaded, and generally produces poorer joints.  If it was any good they wouldn't have needed legislation to ban the leaded, would they?  Personally I think it's a stupid law.  I don't believe anyone has been harmed by the lead in soldered joints - it's absurd.

[Monkeh]

I can't buy leaded solder from any of the European vendors.

You appear to have tried.. one.

You could also just try getting some decent lead-free..

The same regulations apply to all of them!

But aren't implemented the same way. You may well be able to convince some of them to sell you some.

I hate using lead-free - the iron needs to be stinking hot, it doesn't wet the surfaces as well as leaded, and generally produces poorer joints.

Oh, another 40C or so, terrible. Good flux wets fine (I have some which will strip the plating off cheap parts), and the joints produced are just fine. I doubt you could tell the difference between my 60/40 and SN100C by eye without side by side joints, and you won't find any difference electrically or mechanically which matters.

If it was any good they wouldn't have needed legislation to ban the leaded, would they?

You're proving exactly why change sometimes has to be forced.

[tooki]

See the screenshot in my post above.  I can't buy leaded solder from any of the European vendors.  I'm sure I could buy it from China, who famously couldn't give a toss about EU regulations.

I know the European vendors cannot sell to consumers. That’s why I said to try buying from a US vendor like DigiKey or Mouser.

RS and Farnell are both UK-based.

[forrestc]

I hate using lead-free - the iron needs to be stinking hot, it doesn't wet the surfaces as well as leaded, and generally produces poorer joints.  If it was any good they wouldn't have needed legislation to ban the leaded, would they?  Personally I think it's a stupid law.  I don't believe anyone has been harmed by the lead in soldered joints - it's absurd.

Although I miss the shiny SnPb of yesteryear, I have no problem soldering with SAC305.  But again, I'm using a high-quality soldering workstation (Pace) and high-quality, no-clean cored wire from a well-known supplier (Indium).   I really don't notice the difference anymore.

On the other hand, I think banning lead in electronics wasn't as good for the environment and individuals as if we still used lead.  I think it mainly got caught up in the "lead in many things are bad, so let's ban it from everything" crusade that the EU and others were pushing.   

[SteveThackery]

But aren't implemented the same way. You may well be able to convince some of them to sell you some.

Don't be ridiculous. You're reaching, and you know it.

Oh, another 40C or so, terrible.

Why the snarky attitude?  More than that; at least 50C in my experience.  Tell me, what temperatures do you set you set your iron to for leaded and lead-free solder?  I have to set my Hakko to over 400C to get a good lead-free joint.

You're proving exactly why change sometimes has to be forced.

Again, more snarkiness. What's wrong with you - can you not behave politely?  I've no idea what you mean by that comment.  I am questioning the need for lead-free solder.  That is a totally legitimate position to take. I think the legislators came at the legislation from a position of dogma, not from good scientific evidence.  Do your own research - I think you might end up agreeing with me.

[SteveThackery]

I know the European vendors cannot sell to consumers. That’s why I said to try buying from a US vendor like DigiKey or Mouser.

Yes, but why bother when I can buy it from China much cheaper?  From what I can see, pretty much all lead-free solder is Sn99.3/Cu0.7. The only difference seems to be in the flux: rosin, or no-clean.

In what way do the "known brand" lead-free solders differ?  Are the Chinese ones unreliable in their Sn:Cu ratios?

[Monkeh]

But aren't implemented the same way. You may well be able to convince some of them to sell you some.

Don't be ridiculous. You're reaching, and you know it.

I am suggesting, having some experience with 'professional use only' products, that you may want to try harder before giving up.

More than that; at least 50C in my experience.  Tell me, what temperatures do you set you set your iron to for leaded and lead-free solder?  I have to set my Hakko to over 400C to get a good lead-free joint.

I insert the tip and flip the switch. Sorry, I use a Metcal, so I just have one set of general purpose tips which cover all bases. Unless I need a staggering amount of heat (in which case, preheat) or an awkwardly cold tip for very delicate boards, I feel no need to be adjusting it all the time. Yes, that's around 400C - and I'm in and out in just about the same time with leaded or lead-free, with a well formed, shiny fillet either way. I doubt normal mass joints and most surface mount work would be troublesome with a 350C tip, but as I deal with high mass joints on modern PCB materials, I don't keep such tips on hand.

I've no idea what you mean by that comment.  I am questioning the need for lead-free solder.  That is a totally legitimate position to take. I think the legislators came at the legislation from a position of dogma, not from good scientific evidence.  Do your own research - I think you might end up agreeing with me.

They forced seatbelts and airbags, too - surely they didn't need to do that? Oh.. nobody wore belts and fitted airbags until the issue was forced. The situation exists and neither of us is in a position to change it.  My agreement or lack thereof, neither of which I'm choosing to indicate, is irrelevant.

[Monkeh]

I hate using lead-free - the iron needs to be stinking hot, it doesn't wet the surfaces as well as leaded, and generally produces poorer joints.  If it was any good they wouldn't have needed legislation to ban the leaded, would they?  Personally I think it's a stupid law.  I don't believe anyone has been harmed by the lead in soldered joints - it's absurd.

Although I miss the shiny SnPb of yesteryear, I have no problem soldering with SAC305.  But again, I'm using a high-quality soldering workstation (Pace) and high-quality, no-clean cored wire from a well-known supplier (Indium).   I really don't notice the difference anymore.

You may want to try some SN100C or similar alloys - in my experience they produce a pleasingly shiny joint.

[wraper]

If you're in Europe and want cheap but decent solder, get Cynel (produced in Poland).

[forrestc]

You may want to try some SN100C or similar alloys - in my experience they produce a pleasingly shiny joint.

Once you get used to SAC305 it isn't that bad - Although I miss the shininess, the way SAC305 crystalizes as it solidifies makes some types of rework easier as it is easy to tell if it has solidified.

Part of the reason why I'm using SAC305 is that I'm using it in production - I.E. not only hand soldering but also reflow and selective soldering.  I considered SN100C but there are enough tradeoffs there when you're talking about production that I just decided to stick with SAC305.  In particular SN100C is hard to use in the reflow oven for SMT processes.   If it was just the selective and hand soldering/rework I'd probably just use SN100C, but since I don't want to mix alloys I've ended up with the SAC305.

I'm really intrigued by some of the newer Zinc and/or Bismuth (or something else) alloys but the long-term viability and reliability of them is still up in the air.

[SteveThackery]

They forced seatbelts and airbags, too - surely they didn't need to do that?

"What about"-ism.

As an aside, I absolutely did wear seatbelts before they were mandatory.  I used to prefer the non-inertia reel ones, as they could be made to fit quite tightly.  Sorry - way off-topic. 

[tooki]

(I’ve rearranged the order of your questions so that the answers flow better.)

In what way do the "known brand" lead-free solders differ?  Are the Chinese ones unreliable in their Sn:Cu ratios?

Yes, but why bother when I can buy it from China much cheaper?

Assuming for the sake of argument that the alloys are exactly what they claim to be, and without impurities, then the differences between brands (and models within brands) are the fluxes, and there are HUGE differences here. For example, Stannol is a huge top-tier solder brand here in Europe, but I don’t like it because I don’t like their fluxes. Compared to brands I prefer, their flux cores seem to be a bit less active, and it “spits” more. With any big name brand solder, you’re at least guaranteed to get what’s on the label. The alloy will be what it claims to be, it’ll be pure, and the flux will be what it claims to be.

With no-name (or counterfeit) Chinese stuff, you aren’t even guaranteed that. The variation (even batch to batch) of no-name Chinese solders is huge, based on reviews online. As I’ve said in other threads on this topic: IMHO, solder is the wrong place to try and go cheap, because solder is such a minuscule part of your project cost. To me it makes no sense to risk damaging an expensive part (because of needing to rework a joint because the solder refuses to flow) to save literally fractions of a penny on solder cost. Or worse, what if the flux ends up being corrosive in the long run, causing the project to fail down the line? A large (1lb or 1/2kg) spool of solder will last a hobbyist years and years, so the cost per project is negligible. I have spent a whopping $60 on solder wire in the past decade, and I’m not even close to having used it up!! At this rate it’ll last me another 20 years.

I can’t say whether it’s true or not, but some people suspect that the cheapest Chinese solders are made of recovered waste solder from e-waste, meaning huge amounts of impurities and highly unpredictable alloying ratios.

From what I can see, pretty much all lead-free solder is Sn99.3/Cu0.7. The only difference seems to be in the flux: rosin, or no-clean.

I thought you wanted leaded solder? If you are willing to go lead-free, then I highly suggest the Felder SN100Ni+ I recommend here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/lead-solder-wire-with-ag-vs-cu/msg5441408/#msg5441408


As for the alloy: no, not all (nor most) lead-free solder is Sn99.3/Cu0.7. Probably the most common (especially if we include solder paste) is SAC305 (SnAgCu, in the ratio of 96.5/3.0/0.5. It is a near-eutectic and has a melting point of 217 or 218°C depending on who you ask, and it has an inherently slightly matte finish when cooled. I don’t find it to flow particularly well.

Sn99.3/Cu0.7 is a lot cheaper since it doesn’t contain silver. It is eutectic and has a melting point of 227 or 228°C, again depending on the source. It has a shinier surface than SAC305. Because of the shininess and lower cost, retailers that cater to hobbyists tend to carry it the most.

What’s been gaining ground is Sn99.3/Cu0.7 that has the addition of trace amounts of nickel and germanium. Those make it flow better and produce even shinier joints. It goes under many brand names, like K100LD, Sn100Ni+, and more. A good solder of this type — like the inexpensive but excellent Felder I recommend above — is almost as nice to use as good leaded solder, as long as you increase your iron temperature by the necessary 40 degrees C or so.

It remains to be seen whether nickel-germanium-doped Sn99.3/Cu0.7 flows well enough to be used in reflow soldering (see forrestc’s reply above), but for hand soldering and the like, it’s becoming popular.

[Monkeh]

They forced seatbelts and airbags, too - surely they didn't need to do that?

"What about"-ism.

No, an example of changes which had to be forced to occur in a timely fashion. It just doesn't happen to support your position, so is rejected by any means necessary.

[Buriedcode]

Has anyone experienced the "mechanic" brand? They have Sn42Bi58 as well as leaded 63/37 (possibly other formulations too). It costs a bit more than the cheapest ones.
..
Also, the list of ingredients is more filled out than some Chinese brands (that say e.g. 2% of something, but not what). To be fair, I don't even understand all of the data, mostly the CI(or L) and expansion.

I added some 63/37 Mechanic 0.5mm solder to an Ali order.  It solders fine for the few times I've needed leaded.  The flux is rosin, but I suspect they skimp on it (like most cheap solder wire) with 2% being the bare minimum.  I used it on SMD, TH on some boards from storage that had slight tarnish on the pads, and it worked just fine, so the flux is somewhat activating.  Haven't cleaned the boards, but haven't seen any corrosion (yet).  Thats a few months.

I would not trust their Lead free, and I haven't ever needed funky alloys with low melting temp so I can't comment on those.

[forrestc]

"What about"-ism.

No, an example of changes which had to be forced to occur in a timely fashion. It just doesn't happen to support your position, so is rejected by any means necessary.

There is a difference between the government forcing a change that needed to happen in a timely fashion, and the government forcing a change that has dubious benefit to society, and possibly even is a detriment.

Likewise, there is a pretty clear difference between seatbelts and removing lead from solder.   All of the statistics on seatbelts show the benefits far outweigh the costs, and there was a lot of resistance to switching to requiring seatbelts, and later airbags, in cars.  Heck, in the US, there are still a lot of people who refuse to wear seatbelts because they are convinced that it's more likely to hurt than help in an accident. 

Elimination of Lead from many products is important.  Paint comes to mind. However, when you look at the ecological costs to switch electronics from SnPb to SAC305 (which was the primary alloy at the time), it is not nearly as clear as seatbelts were.  Lead in solders don't generally cause health hazards as they don't generally become airborne like sanding lead paint would cause.   In addition, the amount of energy and ecological damage to produce and use SAC305 for electronics is likely worse than SnPb.  SAC305 tends to also have other challenges that don't exist in leaded electronics - although many of those are now not the problem they used to be as we have learned how to solve them.

The point here is that if you take only the transition of solders in electronics from SnPb to SAC305, there is a strong argument to make that this actually made things worse as far as the total damage to the planet and personal health.  On the other side, I'd make a strong argument that seatbelts+airbags made things much better.   So comparing the two isn't really the same thing at all. 

[SteveThackery]

They forced seatbelts and airbags, too - surely they didn't need to do that?

"What about"-ism.

No, an example of changes which had to be forced to occur in a timely fashion. It just doesn't happen to support your position, so is rejected by any means necessary.

My point was that some legislation is good, some is bad. It's silly to think that, because some is good, all of it must be. Using seatbelt legislation to support the case for lead-free solder legislation is ridiculous!

[Monkeh]

My point was that some legislation is good, some is bad. It's silly to think that, because some is good, all of it must be. Using seatbelt legislation to support the case for lead-free solder legislation is ridiculous!

I wasn't using it to support the case, but to counter your faulty argument that legislation isn't required to effect change.

in the US, there are still a lot of people who refuse to wear seatbelts because they are convinced that it's more likely to hurt than help in an accident.

And there's still a person in this thread who is convinced that it's impossible to use lead-free to make satisfactory solder joints. Whether the change is good or bad is not the point I was making.

[SteveThackery]

And there's still a person in this thread who is convinced that it's impossible to use lead-free to make satisfactory solder joints.

I didn't say that! I said they aren't as good as leaded joints.

"I hate using lead-free - the iron needs to be stinking hot, it doesn't wet the surfaces as well as leaded, and generally produces poorer joints."

That is a true account of my experience. I have to say, it isn't an uncommon observation - plenty of people online have made similar complaints.  Having said that, I do accept that a different iron and different brand of lead-free solder might well change my opinion. My experience is what I reported, but my heels aren't dug in. If I can get a good result from lead-free, that's great - I won't have to buy Chinese solder any more.