Author Topic: CNC machining metals.  (Read 3209 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline harpsTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 73
CNC machining metals.
« on: September 11, 2020, 01:48:45 pm »
Hello there.

I am hoping to find a popular cnc free software program, equivalent to how Eagle is to PCB design.

When i learnt how to make circuit boards, I used Eagle and it was great because there were detailed youtube tutorials online and it was free,
After the Gerber files were made I sent them to a company and it arrived at my doorstep at a very reasonable cost. It was a great journey to take.
I believe it was thanks to one of Daves videos that I found eagle many years ago.

The 3d objects I hope to cnc are small, under 10x10x10cm. I am not 100% sure which metal? I would like titanium, but the cheapest to start with
might be best, just in case I make a mistake. lol.  Also only in very small quantities, one off's or just pairs at a time. 

Thanks for any help : )
 

Offline sokoloff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1799
  • Country: us
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2020, 02:39:27 pm »
If it’s hobbyist work, I’d use Fusion360 and stop there. (It’s free-as-in-beer for hobbyists, just like Eagle.)

I spent a lot of time in OpenSCAD for modeling for 3D printing and still use it for some extremely simple parts, but wished I’d switched to Fusion earlier. It includes CAD and CAM functionality.
 
The following users thanked this post: harps

Offline Mecanix

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 269
  • Country: cc
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2020, 05:05:54 pm »
Manufacturing metals require a machine-tool (mill, lathe, etc). Its supportive controller software (hmi), CAM capabilities and other post-processors comes next. PS. You need to be experienced to machine TI. Not that's its more difficult than any other materials; it is extremely hazardous in term of work-hardening e.g. end-mill shattering, machine stalls/crashes, sparks igniting 'extremely dangerous' fires (seen a titanium fire before?!), etc etc. I'd recommend AL alloys before any others to begin with.

If you want to learn solid modeling (CAD) then that is a whole other area on its self. If the end goal is to be able to manufacture your own parts I'd recommend to get familiar with CAM and understand the limitations of modern NC machine-tools (so to be able to model parts that are able to be machined down-stream).
 
The following users thanked this post: harps, Domagoj T

Offline harpsTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2020, 05:46:11 pm »
If it’s hobbyist work, I’d use Fusion360 and stop there. (It’s free-as-in-beer for hobbyists, just like Eagle.)

I spent a lot of time in OpenSCAD for modeling for 3D printing and still use it for some extremely simple parts, but wished I’d switched to Fusion earlier. It includes CAD and CAM functionality.

Thank you, I shall check out fusion360. Sounds cool.  nice one  :-+


 

Offline harpsTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2020, 05:53:00 pm »
Manufacturing metals require a machine-tool (mill, lathe, etc). Its supportive controller software (hmi), CAM capabilities and other post-processors comes next. PS. You need to be experienced to machine TI. Not that's its more difficult than any other materials; it is extremely hazardous in term of work-hardening e.g. end-mill shattering, machine stalls/crashes, sparks igniting 'extremely dangerous' fires (seen a titanium fire before?!), etc etc. I'd recommend AL alloys before any others to begin with.

If you want to learn solid modeling (CAD) then that is a whole other area on its self. If the end goal is to be able to manufacture your own parts I'd recommend to get familiar with CAM and understand the limitations of modern NC machine-tools (so to be able to model parts that are able to be machined down-stream).

Hi my hope is to design a part but have an expert/company do the maching from the file. 

Thanks, i am glad you mentioned to read up on limitations of what the tools can do...I shall do. And I assume from this, how to keep a design cheap to produce also, by not trying to do things that are too complex for a machinist. Kind of like sticking to single or double-sided circuit boards, before going multilayer. 

thank you

 


 

Offline Benta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6420
  • Country: de
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2020, 06:01:38 pm »
+1 for Mecanix.

Ti is a nightmare to machine. It smears when cutting and work-hardens at the same time, meaning climb milling is the best approach, which again means you need a very rigid machine.
The aluminium-built XY tables with high speed spindle are not suitable.

I suggest you work with free-machining Al instead. If you want a Ti-like look, there are surface treatments for Al that look like that.

 
The following users thanked this post: harps, Mecanix

Offline olkipukki

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 790
  • Country: 00
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2020, 06:07:05 pm »
... I sent them to a company and it arrived at my doorstep at a very reasonable cost. It was a great journey to take.

...

The 3d objects I hope to cnc are small, under 10x10x10cm. I am not 100% sure which metal? I would like titanium, but the cheapest to start with
might be best...


You can always try services as xometry.com (or alternatives) to check what would be 'reasonable cost' to machine an one-off from titanium...  >:D
 
The following users thanked this post: harps

Online MarkF

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2762
  • Country: us
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2020, 06:46:34 pm »
Fusion360 is not free.

I have been using FreeCAD  for my 3D prints.
It has its bugs but has been getting the job done for me.  Plus lots of how-to videos.
 
The following users thanked this post: harps, CatalinaWOW

Offline sokoloff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1799
  • Country: us
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2020, 06:56:06 pm »
Fusion360 is not free.
Fusion360 is free (as in beer) for personal use. That's at least as free as "equivalent to how Eagle is" IMO.

I am hoping to find a popular cnc free software program, equivalent to how Eagle is to PCB design.

https://www.autodesk.com/products/fusion-360/personal :
Quote
Fusion 360 is available for free personal use for individuals who are doing home-based, non-commercial design, manufacturing, and fabrication projects.
 
The following users thanked this post: harps

Offline harpsTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2020, 07:40:21 pm »
... I sent them to a company and it arrived at my doorstep at a very reasonable cost. It was a great journey to take.

...

The 3d objects I hope to cnc are small, under 10x10x10cm. I am not 100% sure which metal? I would like titanium, but the cheapest to start with
might be best...


You can always try services as xometry.com (or alternatives) to check what would be 'reasonable cost' to machine an one-off from titanium...  >:D

Thanks

i like that they will give a quote when the user uploads a file to the site. with all the different metal options to choose from. :   :-+

 

Offline harpsTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2020, 07:42:39 pm »
Fusion360 is not free.

I have been using FreeCAD  for my 3D prints.
It has its bugs but has been getting the job done for me.  Plus lots of how-to videos.


i have just been getting into fusion360  this evening,it really is cool. But now you mention 'freecad', maybe that would be better as my designs are simple and i hope to keep it all cheap as chips(fries). I shall have a look, thank you.  :-+

 

Offline olkipukki

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 790
  • Country: 00
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2020, 07:51:03 pm »
There is always something else  for 'free'  ::)  and don't require be in a fusion cloud  :horse:


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/free-cad-solid-edge-community-edition/
 
The following users thanked this post: harps

Offline harpsTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2020, 07:57:26 pm »
There is always something else  for 'free'  ::)  and don't require be in a fusion cloud  :horse:


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/free-cad-solid-edge-community-edition/

Thanks I am checking it out now. : )
 

Offline harpsTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2020, 08:05:38 pm »
There is always something else  for 'free'  ::)  and don't require be in a fusion cloud  :horse:


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/free-cad-solid-edge-community-edition/


I'm not keen to have to be connected to the internet to use the software, is that required with fusion360?

Regards solid edge, I notice it has a commercial option.

I may want to sell a part one day so maybe freecad might be best? as it seems to be offline and totally free?

 




 

Offline sokoloff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1799
  • Country: us
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2020, 09:28:13 pm »
I'm not keen to have to be connected to the internet to use the software, is that required with fusion360?
https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/fusion-360/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/Unable-to-open-Fusion-360-without-internet-connection.html#

You have to be connected to the internet to download and install it.
You have to be connected to the internet every couple of weeks to continue using it.
Just now, I was able to disconnect my internet connection and use it to design and save a very simple part just now, so for the "I'm going to do some design work on an airplane trip", it seems like it would probably work OK.
I was NOT able to convert that part to an STL file for 3D printing without internet.
 
The following users thanked this post: harps

Offline olkipukki

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 790
  • Country: 00
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2020, 09:38:30 pm »
Try FreeCAD and see if it will fit
or Fusion360 if don't mind be online.

I will be more concerned about a learning curve, availability learning stuff, personal usability, public popularity...

 
The following users thanked this post: harps

Offline harpsTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2020, 09:47:58 pm »
Try FreeCAD and see if it will fit
or Fusion360 if don't mind be online.

I will be more concerned about a learning curve, availability learning stuff, personal usability, public popularity...

hi i tried freecad and found that I can move a circle or a point with the mouse freely...but i can't type in the values directly, there is no dialog box that shows the xyz position. I have never seen a program like this without the xyz dialog box.  unless there is a hidden tab?

for example I  make a sketch on a side of a box, I then make a circle and can move it around, but I can't place it exactly, by typing in the xyz parameters. i have to place it freehand with a mouse.  |O, surly i am missing something here?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 09:51:01 pm by harps »
 

Offline harpsTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2020, 09:56:55 pm »
Fusion360 is not free.

I have been using FreeCAD  for my 3D prints.
It has its bugs but has been getting the job done for me.  Plus lots of how-to videos.

hi mark. is there a hidden xyz dialogue box in freecad?  When I am placing a circle in a sketch I have to use the mouse freehand. I can see the xyz pop up on the screen as I hold the mouse button down, and when i let go of the mouse button the xyz numbers vanish. no where in any tab can I then fine tune the placement. very unusual for a 3d package not to have xyz to fine tune. it must be me, surly.
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10576
  • Country: gb
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2020, 10:38:57 pm »
I'd like to sound a note of caution. It's very easy for someone without machining experience to take a 3D cad program and design a part that is almost impossible to manufacture, or will cost much more to manufacture than a functionally equivalent part that is designed by someone who has some insight into the machining process.

Say you have a pocket in a part (pocket in this sense is an arbitrary shape hole in a part that only goes part way through the part). Say you decide that it wants a 1/4" wide 45º chamfer between the walls and the floor of the pocket. That puts you into the territory of needing a 5 axis machine to do the machining rather than a cheaper 3D machine, or requires a lot of setup on a 3D machine, or requires a non-standard cutter. Whichever way you machine it, it costs more than a simple pocket with straight sides that meet the bottom at 90º. If you need a pocket like that for functional reasons, fine you bite the bullet and accept the cost. But a naïve design might include such a pocket without considering the manufacturability of it. Hopefully you can see where this goes for all sorts of other features, for knowing how to design a part so that it can be held in the machine while machining and so on.

Before you design parts and kick them off for someone else to manufacture you can save yourself potentially a lot of grief by learning a bit about the machining processes. You don't have to become an expert, just learn enough to be able to give a rough answer to 'how would you make this on a mill/lathe?'. Like, is this feature milled, or drilled, or drilled and reamed, or bored, or produced with a slitting saw, or turned. And to have an answer to "How do you machine all the features I want on this part while still being able to hold it (usually in a vice) to machine it?".

You can get a lot of this just from watching some basic machining videos on You Tube. There are worse starting places than the basic milling and lathe courses put together on the 'blondihacks' channel on You Tube. If you want to have a laugh and also watch some machining 'ThisOldTony' on You Tube is good value, but not as deliberately educational as blondihacks. Somewhere on You Tube is a series of videos on machining that MIT put together for students who needed to use the workshops to make parts but didn't have any machining experience - search for "MIT Machine Shop Videos".
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
The following users thanked this post: harps

Offline harpsTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2020, 10:53:56 pm »

Thank you for the suggestions for the youtube videos and not using curves on edges unless really needing them.

I shall make note for tomorrow to watch them.

thank you again :  )


 

Offline Mecanix

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 269
  • Country: cc
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2020, 11:08:15 pm »
I'd like to sound a note of caution. It's very easy for someone without machining experience to take a 3D cad program and design a part that is almost impossible to manufacture, or will cost much more to manufacture than a functionally equivalent part that is designed by someone who has some insight into the machining process.

Nothing worse than to receive a model from cad dept having 45 degree chamfered edges and corners at the bottom of cavities :palm: My fav; non-tangent curves and/or mismatching spline tolerances & surfaces (3D), or plain and simple lack of geometric constraint references. Some solid models for mfg could indeed ruin a CAD designer overnight by the CAM engineer stitching them up in prep for machining. In most cases ending up a totally different part for 10x the price lol

Your message is strong and important; its not because you are being given some cool 'pro modeling tools' for free and know how to add volume to a 2D sketch with a mouse-click that it makes you a parts & assemblies maker. Far from. The learning curve about manufacturing and processing those parts is pretty steep in all realities (3~5 years learning curve minimum, with hands-on).
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 11:10:02 pm by Mecanix »
 
The following users thanked this post: harps

Offline MadTux

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 793
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2020, 11:43:27 pm »
45º chamfer at the bottom of a pocket is rather easy to do, if you have a (tool) grinder, just grind the end of the cutting edges to a 45° angle and proceed as normal.

Much worse, people who want like 50x M2 threads in aluminum. Or difficult contours for absolutely no reason.
Undercuts/deep pockets are also nice, some people probably think the cutter just comes out of nowhere and the material disappears into thin air.....
 
The following users thanked this post: harps

Offline Mecanix

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 269
  • Country: cc
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2020, 12:22:07 am »
45º chamfer at the bottom of a pocket is rather easy to do, if you have a (tool) grinder, just grind the end of the cutting edges to a 45° angle and proceed as normal.

I'd swing this over the 5ax guys for a tilted op only if required by the engineer himself/herself (and being operational feature that is, I doubt though lol). All that to say; trust I've seen this sort of stupidity and other rather alien-world geometries a lot during the last few recent years. Particularly grown problem since F360 is free and youtube hypes the 'free-hand' CAD amateur like I've never seen before. To a point we've completely stopped taking outside jobs and phone calls from unknown people, its that bad.
 

Online MarkF

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2762
  • Country: us
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2020, 01:08:46 am »
Fusion360 is not free.

I have been using FreeCAD  for my 3D prints.
It has its bugs but has been getting the job done for me.  Plus lots of how-to videos.

hi mark. is there a hidden xyz dialogue box in freecad?  When I am placing a circle in a sketch I have to use the mouse freehand. I can see the xyz pop up on the screen as I hold the mouse button down, and when i let go of the mouse button the xyz numbers vanish. no where in any tab can I then fine tune the placement. very unusual for a 3d package not to have xyz to fine tune. it must be me, surly.

If you select an object, you can type values in the lower left corner.
For pads, fillets, chamfers, rotations, etc., you can type values usually in the left Model or Tasks tabs.




This guys tutorial series helped me a lot:



He also does a comparison between FreeCAD and Fusion360.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 03:06:36 pm by MarkF »
 
The following users thanked this post: harps

Online MarkF

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2762
  • Country: us
Re: CNC machining metals.
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2020, 01:23:48 am »
I'm not keen to have to be connected to the internet to use the software, is that required with fusion360?
https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/fusion-360/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/Unable-to-open-Fusion-360-without-internet-connection.html#

You have to be connected to the internet to download and install it.
You have to be connected to the internet every couple of weeks to continue using it.
Just now, I was able to disconnect my internet connection and use it to design and save a very simple part just now, so for the "I'm going to do some design work on an airplane trip", it seems like it would probably work OK.
I was NOT able to convert that part to an STL file for 3D printing without internet.

When you get to this point in FreeCAD, you need to highlight your part and then
"File -> Export -> STL File" for something you can slice for a 3D-Printer as an example. 
(No save function to a STL file.)
 
The following users thanked this post: harps


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf