Author Topic: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia  (Read 18408 times)

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Offline tooki

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #100 on: December 29, 2020, 12:13:59 am »
https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/dishwashers/articles/dishwasher-vs-washing-by-hand

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1470-6431.2010.00973.x
I can see the point about wasting loads of water, whilst waiting for it to warm up, hence why I use cold.

I strongly disagree with not rinsing. Read the label on a detergent bottle and note the ingredients and safety warnings: it's not something you want to be eating. Fair enough, in small quantities it'll do no harm, but I use it very concentrated, with minimal water, so rinsing is mandatory, otherwise I'd taste it and what about other residues such as raw meat and blood? No way will I eat that!
Oh god yes. No f••king way I would just wipe off the soapy water! I am very persnickety about my dishes being perfectly clean, and a film of food residue and soap, no matter how dilute, just grosses me out. (And I think you're absolutely right about it being problematic if it contains e.g. raw chicken juice.)

As far as waiting for the dishes to pile up, or using a bucket is concerned: that wouldn't save me any water, because I never fill the sink or use the plug. I just wet the dishes, so use the same amount of water, per dish, irrespective of the quantity.
Which is fundamentally not a particularly water- and energy-efficient way to wash. (But it's how I do my handwashing, too.)

I'm not bothered about saving water, because I live in an area with relatively high rainfall and drought is rare. Saving energy is more important. My energy bills are low. I have my central heating thermostat set to 15oC, when I'm up and 10oC, when I'm out/asleep. I normally take cold showers and wash my hands cold. I live on my own. I've realised it takes so long to run the water hot, by the time it's warm, my hands are already clean, so I just use cold and my skin is better for it too.
I also don't worry about the volume of water per se; when I was a teen here, they actually taught us we needed to run a bit more water because people were using so little, the sewers didn't always have sufficient flow!

I'm fortunate to live in a building with exceptionally good hot water — it always comes out of the tap hot within 3-4 seconds. According to a friend of mine who's a plumbing engineer, that's accomplished by using recirculating pumps that keep the water in the pipes hot (also necessitating a closed-loop system, rather than a branched one). Apparently, while costlier to install, it's both nicer and saves energy (contrary to what my intuition would tell me).

I'd definitely use more energy/water if I had a dishwasher. Modern dishwashers which try to save water are pretty crappy. My mum has one and she finds she has to soak the dishes before running it, otherwise it leaves a residue, so she probably uses more water than just doing them in the sink. It's worse because there's only two of them in the house, so the dishes piles up and the food dries hard, making it more difficult to wash. This is a classic example of regulation failure. Another is water saving toilets which require more than one flush and have a crappy siphon which ends up leaking, after a few years.
Absolutely not true any more. Manufacturers' first generation or two of lower-energy products seem to invariably suck, but they then figure it out. My Bosch dishwasher does just fine without using bathtubs of water (and I live alone, so my dishes take a while to pile up!), and so does my toilet, which flushes with more gusto than the water-guzzling old-style toilets my apartments in USA had.

Just as I said regarding the gas cans: don't blame the laws on crappy manufacturers who don't manage to make good products. At least not when other manufacturers exist who prove that compliant products can be good performers, efficient, and affordable, all at the same time.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 12:18:52 am by tooki »
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #101 on: December 29, 2020, 12:18:22 am »
Any of you who fully understand the consuption of beer from the glass will understand the sacrilege of not rinsing out the detergent.

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Offline tooki

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #102 on: December 29, 2020, 12:20:11 am »
Any of you who fully understand the consuption of beer from the glass will understand the sacrilege of not rinsing out the detergent.
Some Miele dishwashers have a mode specifically for drinking glasses that rinses extra well and doesn't use rinse aid, so as to ensure proper beer results! (Not surprising from a German appliance maker. :D )
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #103 on: December 29, 2020, 10:34:29 am »
Any of you who fully understand the consuption of beer from the glass will understand the sacrilege of not rinsing out the detergent.
I don't touch alcohol, nasty stuff, so no, I don't understand what you mean with that comment.

I'd definitely use more energy/water if I had a dishwasher. Modern dishwashers which try to save water are pretty crappy. My mum has one and she finds she has to soak the dishes before running it, otherwise it leaves a residue, so she probably uses more water than just doing them in the sink. It's worse because there's only two of them in the house, so the dishes piles up and the food dries hard, making it more difficult to wash. This is a classic example of regulation failure. Another is water saving toilets which require more than one flush and have a crappy siphon which ends up leaking, after a few years.
Absolutely not true any more. Manufacturers' first generation or two of lower-energy products seem to invariably suck, but they then figure it out. My Bosch dishwasher does just fine without using bathtubs of water (and I live alone, so my dishes take a while to pile up!), and so does my toilet, which flushes with more gusto than the water-guzzling old-style toilets my apartments in USA had.
Does it wash cold? If not, I doubt it. Most of the energy consumption in washing dishes is heating the water. I might use more water, but because it's cold, save of the odd item I need hot, I'll use less energy than any dishwasher which heats it up to 50oC.

Regarding the toilet: do you live at the top of a block of flats, with a long drop sewage pipe, by any chance? That makes a big difference. I live in a two story house, in a flat area. Both toilets are pretty crappy, but the one on the ground floor is the worse, of the two. My house is relatively new: April 2016.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #104 on: December 29, 2020, 12:38:25 pm »
In the apartment I grew up the situation was reversed as no individual water tanks were used. The flush valve was inside the wall and connected to a thick pipe that came from the massive water tank above the top floor. The issue was that the top floor did not have much pressure.
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Offline tooki

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #105 on: December 29, 2020, 01:47:55 pm »
Any of you who fully understand the consuption of beer from the glass will understand the sacrilege of not rinsing out the detergent.
I don't touch alcohol, nasty stuff, so no, I don't understand what you mean with that comment.
Alcohol is fine when enjoyed in moderation. No need for judginess.

Anyhow, residues on glassware can cause the foam ("head") on beer to either go crazy, or to not form at all, depending on the nature of the residue. Since the head is important to the flavor development in a poured beer, it's important to get it right.

Residue can also affect how other sparkling beverages behave. Ever noticed how often, pouring Coke into a glass, the first fill takes forever because it foams so much, but refills don't foam at all? Same processes.


I'd definitely use more energy/water if I had a dishwasher. Modern dishwashers which try to save water are pretty crappy. My mum has one and she finds she has to soak the dishes before running it, otherwise it leaves a residue, so she probably uses more water than just doing them in the sink. It's worse because there's only two of them in the house, so the dishes piles up and the food dries hard, making it more difficult to wash. This is a classic example of regulation failure. Another is water saving toilets which require more than one flush and have a crappy siphon which ends up leaking, after a few years.
Absolutely not true any more. Manufacturers' first generation or two of lower-energy products seem to invariably suck, but they then figure it out. My Bosch dishwasher does just fine without using bathtubs of water (and I live alone, so my dishes take a while to pile up!), and so does my toilet, which flushes with more gusto than the water-guzzling old-style toilets my apartments in USA had.
Does it wash cold? If not, I doubt it. Most of the energy consumption in washing dishes is heating the water. I might use more water, but because it's cold, save of the odd item I need hot, I'll use less energy than any dishwasher which heats it up to 50oC.
I was talking about the claim that modern, efficient dishwashers don't work well. There might be some models that suck (which has always been the case), but it's certainly untrue as a blanket statement.

Regarding the toilet: do you live at the top of a block of flats, with a long drop sewage pipe, by any chance? That makes a big difference. I live in a two story house, in a flat area. Both toilets are pretty crappy, but the one on the ground floor is the worse, of the two. My house is relatively new: April 2016.
Nope, I'm actually on the bottom floor. 
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #106 on: December 29, 2020, 05:34:31 pm »
Any of you who fully understand the consuption of beer from the glass will understand the sacrilege of not rinsing out the detergent.
I don't touch alcohol, nasty stuff, so no, I don't understand what you mean with that comment.
Alcohol is fine when enjoyed in moderation. No need for judginess.
Don't be overly sensitive. It's my opinion. I don't enjoy the effects of alcohol, even in moderation. It's truly nasty stuff.

Quote
Nope, I'm actually on the bottom floor.
I bet there's a fairly long drop before the sewer, otherwise it wouldn't flush so well. When the toilet flushes, the inertia and siphon effect of the water passing down the long pipe, helps suck the rest of the contents of the toilet bowl out. If you've got a short pipe going into the sewer, it won't flush so well.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #107 on: December 29, 2020, 08:55:53 pm »
Nope, I'm actually on the bottom floor.
So your toilet is on the *bottom* floor?
Somebody had to say it...
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #108 on: December 29, 2020, 08:57:26 pm »
Nope, I'm actually on the bottom floor.
So your toilet is on the *bottom* floor?
Somebody had to say it...

This thread is in the shitter.
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Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #109 on: December 29, 2020, 09:59:30 pm »
I bet there's a fairly long drop before the sewer, otherwise it wouldn't flush so well. When the toilet flushes, the inertia and siphon effect of the water passing down the long pipe, helps suck the rest of the contents of the toilet bowl out. If you've got a short pipe going into the sewer, it won't flush so well.

I don't see how the length of the drop makes much if any difference - all the toilet plumbing I'm familiar with is vented very close to the point it joins the drain stack, specifically to PREVENT the trap from being sucked dry by a slug of water going down the pipe.

https://www.bhg.com/home-improvement/plumbing/drain-venting/

http://blowneyedbeauties.blogspot.com/2013/05/toilet-vent-stack-diagram.html

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If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #110 on: December 30, 2020, 12:14:51 am »
I can tell you’ve neither read the law itself, nor did you carefully read anything I wrote. Nor have you given two seconds’ thought as to why the law was needed: regulations occur because lots of people don’t act responsibly. If they did, we wouldn’t need regulations. Manufacturers of gas cans shouldn’t have needed to be told to design the canisters such as to not leak, and to be made of materials the gas doesn’t permeate. Consumers shouldn’t have needed to be told to close them. Yet every garage or shed holding an old style gas can constantly reeked of gasoline, indicating ongoing vapor leakage.

I don't have to because it's irrelevant. Look, the law may be well intentioned, and if you read it, it may sound very reasonable but the bottom line is that the result of the law is that a majority of the products on the market which are fully compliant with the law and able to be sold are garbage. Not only are they difficult to use and not fit for the purpose for which they are sold, but they result in a large increase in the amount of raw gasoline and vapors spilled into the environment, and reduced safety because of the way they spill gas all over the place. Blame the manufactures of the cans if you want but that's ignoring the FACT that these problems did not exist prior to the law. It's absolutely irrelevant what the law intended, what problem it was meant to solve, and who the blame is placed on after the fact because the actual result is the problem is worse than it was before. If a container can be sold that is compliant with the law yet results in an increase in spilled fuel and other problems then it's a bad law, period. The problem with the whole thing is people with your attitude who perceive a problem and believe the law is good because it "does something" about the problem, while ignoring the mountains of evidence demonstrating that most of the products on the market which comply with the law do not actually solve the problem, they simply comply with the law as written. What part of this are you failing to grasp? Bad law, end of story.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #111 on: December 30, 2020, 12:16:58 am »
Have you ever stepped outside your country? Your state? Or, you know, see any documentaries on Fox news about other countries?

Yes, I've traveled extensively throughout the Western half of Canada, I've been to several parts of England, I've never watched Fox news in my life. Assume much?

And why are you so obsessed with a fucking screw? Can you honestly say with a straight face that mandating a screw makes children safer? I knew how to remove screws by the time I was 3 years old, they're not an obstacle for kids, they're just a nuisance for me. Can you truly not understand how annoying it is to be treated like a child and have a nanny state government trying to micromanage every detail of your life? Does it make you feel smug and superior to mock others for not wanting to be told what to do? 

Another one for my ignore list...
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 12:23:48 am by james_s »
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #112 on: December 30, 2020, 12:28:42 am »
Have you ever stepped outside your country? Your state? Or, you know, see any documentaries on Fox news about other countries?

Yes, I've traveled extensively throughout the Western half of Canada, I've been to several parts of England, I've never watched Fox news in my life. Assume much?

And why are you so obsessed with a fucking screw? Can you honestly say with a straight face that mandating a screw makes children safer? I knew how to remove screws by the time I was 3 years old, they're not an obstacle for kids, they're just a nuisance for me. Can you truly not understand how annoying it is to be treated like a child and have a nanny state government trying to micromanage every detail of your life? Does it make you feel smug and superior to mock others for not wanting to be told what to do? 

Another one for my ignore list...

Does it make you feel smug and superior to mock others for not sharing your belief or your violent opposition to something which really doesn't hurt you? Stop choosing to be offended and get a grip.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #113 on: January 04, 2021, 02:37:38 am »
I can tell you’ve neither read the law itself, nor did you carefully read anything I wrote. Nor have you given two seconds’ thought as to why the law was needed: regulations occur because lots of people don’t act responsibly. If they did, we wouldn’t need regulations. Manufacturers of gas cans shouldn’t have needed to be told to design the canisters such as to not leak, and to be made of materials the gas doesn’t permeate. Consumers shouldn’t have needed to be told to close them. Yet every garage or shed holding an old style gas can constantly reeked of gasoline, indicating ongoing vapor leakage.

I don't have to because it's irrelevant.
But it's not irrelevant. Examining it is necessary to truly understand the problem. Your "solution" of just whining and telling everyone they're wrong doesn't actually solve anything. It doesn't solve the vapor escape problems that existed before, it doesn't solve the usability problems with the shitty cans, and it doesn't solve the vapor escape caused by the shitty cans' shitty usability. All your attitude does is try and shut down discussion, and cause animosity.


Look, the law may be well intentioned, and if you read it, it may sound very reasonable but the bottom line is that the result of the law is that a majority of the products on the market which are fully compliant with the law and able to be sold are garbage. Not only are they difficult to use and not fit for the purpose for which they are sold, but they result in a large increase in the amount of raw gasoline and vapors spilled into the environment, and reduced safety because of the way they spill gas all over the place. Blame the manufactures of the cans if you want but that's ignoring the FACT that these problems did not exist prior to the law. It's absolutely irrelevant what the law intended, what problem it was meant to solve, and who the blame is placed on after the fact because the actual result is the problem is worse than it was before. If a container can be sold that is compliant with the law yet results in an increase in spilled fuel and other problems then it's a bad law, period.
If you'd read the law, you'd know that if those cans are unable to be used without spilling gas, then they aren't compliant with the law (neither as intended nor as written), and the manufacturer needs to be taken to task.

Remember: I'm not saying that all failed laws are written well. Many aren't. But this one just isn't an example of a badly designed or badly written law.



The problem with the whole thing is people with your attitude who perceive a problem and believe the law is good because it "does something" about the problem, while ignoring the mountains of evidence demonstrating that most of the products on the market which comply with the law do not actually solve the problem, they simply comply with the law as written. What part of this are you failing to grasp?
Didja actually read my posts? Obviously not:

I am absolutely not a blind "well it does something" supporter of bad laws. I expressly said that if a law is not working as intended, then it should be amended or rescinded. Like… even if you don't agree with my ultimate conclusion, you need to be respectful and fair, and give me credit for the things I said that basically agree with you:
I do, however, agree that regulations need to be done right, and that means a) making a sincere effort to weigh the benefits of the change against the negative consequences, and b) being willing to quickly and decisively rescind or modify a regulation if it has unforeseen negative consequences. But the latter is something governments in USA are almost never willing to do. So bad regulation, instead of being rescinded, gets more and more crap slathered onto it, with lawmakers digging in their heels rather than simply saying "hey, this didn't work out, so let's undo it, regroup, and do something else".
You certainly cannot claim that I think "eh, the law tried, that's good enough" even distantly agrees with my views.



Bad law, end of story.
Uhhhh, no. Bad manufacturers, "end of story."

(Except that I absolutely don't think that "end of story" is how one should end things like that, because that doesn't resolve the problem. The story should end with the manufacturers being held accountable and/or the law being amended. Foot stomping and whining don't accomplish anything.)
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #114 on: January 04, 2021, 03:02:24 am »
Any of you who fully understand the consuption of beer from the glass will understand the sacrilege of not rinsing out the detergent.
I don't touch alcohol, nasty stuff, so no, I don't understand what you mean with that comment.
Alcohol is fine when enjoyed in moderation. No need for judginess.
Don't be overly sensitive. It's my opinion. I don't enjoy the effects of alcohol, even in moderation. It's truly nasty stuff.
Then you say "I don't like it". Saying that something is "nasty" (as in, an inherent trait of the thing, as opposed to your opinion on it) is just plain rude.


Quote
Nope, I'm actually on the bottom floor.
I bet there's a fairly long drop before the sewer, otherwise it wouldn't flush so well. When the toilet flushes, the inertia and siphon effect of the water passing down the long pipe, helps suck the rest of the contents of the toilet bowl out. If you've got a short pipe going into the sewer, it won't flush so well.
I don't believe the physics of siphons work that way. Inertia has nothing to do with it. But moreover, my toilet (like all of them I have ever seen here in Switzerland) is a non-siphon toilet. In my case (like in essentially all modern toilets here) it's a washdown toilet.


Assuming your country flag is correct, you're in the UK, where washdown toilets are also the norm. True siphon toilets (the dominant type in my home country of USA) are entirely different beasts.
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2021, 09:02:30 am »
How the hell did coin cell batteries turn into a discussion about water and dishwashers?!

Wait... don't answer that.
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2021, 11:06:27 am »
How the hell did coin cell batteries turn into a discussion about water and dishwashers?!

Wait... don't answer that.
It's like Godwin's law, but with dishwashers and American jerrycans.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2021, 11:15:09 am »
I bet there's a fairly long drop before the sewer, otherwise it wouldn't flush so well. When the toilet flushes, the inertia and siphon effect of the water passing down the long pipe, helps suck the rest of the contents of the toilet bowl out. If you've got a short pipe going into the sewer, it won't flush so well.

I don't believe the physics of siphons work that way. Inertia has nothing to do with it. But moreover, my toilet (like all of them I have ever seen here in Switzerland) is a non-siphon toilet. In my case (like in essentially all modern toilets here) it's a washdown toilet.

Assuming your country flag is correct, you're in the UK, where washdown toilets are also the norm. True siphon toilets (the dominant type in my home country of USA) are entirely different beasts.

Steve Mould recently mentioned the different types of toilets in connection with syphons:

https://youtu.be/D07aJB0Blzw

In the US, sewer lines are vented at the source through a roof vent so any suction would just pull air in from outside.  Inertia causes the siphon to continue past the point where air is drawn through.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 06:10:43 pm by David Hess »
 

Offline VK3DRBTopic starter

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2021, 09:50:43 am »
How the hell did coin cell batteries turn into a discussion about water and dishwashers?!

Wait... don't answer that.
How did the discussion of coin cell battery safety morph to toilets? I guess they think safety is part of Cisterns Engineering :-DD.

As for safety, any small parts are dangerous to young kids, especially in the choking area. Toddlers walking around with sharp objects like screwdrivers is also very risky. As is pots with boiling water or whatever with the handles in reach of young children. Also mains walls sockets not covered, especially in countries like Australia with 230 VAC mains. And of course swimming pools. Parents and grandparents should do a serious safety audit of their home.

When I was a kid I was sucking a stone and got it trapped in my windpipe. Almost choked to death. As a kid my friends and I threw asbestos fibres at each other at a building site and I had a tor used for hopscotch made of asbestos. When I was about 5, I could not swim but I managed to walk underwater across an irrigation channel on my uncle's farm for a distance of about 4 metres - I was very lucky not to have drowned. "You should not be here" - a quote from the "11.22.63" sci-fi TV Series.

 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #119 on: January 07, 2021, 06:47:25 pm »
Any of you who fully understand the consuption of beer from the glass will understand the sacrilege of not rinsing out the detergent.
I don't touch alcohol, nasty stuff, so no, I don't understand what you mean with that comment.
Alcohol is fine when enjoyed in moderation. No need for judginess.
Don't be overly sensitive. It's my opinion. I don't enjoy the effects of alcohol, even in moderation. It's truly nasty stuff.
Then you say "I don't like it". Saying that something is "nasty" (as in, an inherent trait of the thing, as opposed to your opinion on it) is just plain rude.
Yes, nasty, dirty, revolting: all words commonly used to describe things one finds unpleasant. You really need to be less sensitive. I wasn't even replying to you, yet you took offence on someone else's behalf, when they haven't even complained about being offended.

Quote
Quote
Nope, I'm actually on the bottom floor.
I bet there's a fairly long drop before the sewer, otherwise it wouldn't flush so well. When the toilet flushes, the inertia and siphon effect of the water passing down the long pipe, helps suck the rest of the contents of the toilet bowl out. If you've got a short pipe going into the sewer, it won't flush so well.
I don't believe the physics of siphons work that way. Inertia has nothing to do with it. But moreover, my toilet (like all of them I have ever seen here in Switzerland) is a non-siphon toilet. In my case (like in essentially all modern toilets here) it's a washdown toilet.

Assuming your country flag is correct, you're in the UK, where washdown toilets are also the norm. True siphon toilets (the dominant type in my home country of USA) are entirely different beasts.
Yes, I'm in the UK and it is a washdown toilet. I believe the momentum of the water going down the drain is helping to flush the upstairs toilet, better than the downstairs. They're both exactly the same brand, model and age, so I can't think of any other reason why this is the case. The only other explanation is the downstairs one has some sort of fault, but it's not like it doesn't flush at all, just not so well.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #120 on: January 07, 2021, 09:34:09 pm »
I'm having a late breakfast and wondering if it was necessary to draw in the 'item'.

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Offline tooki

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #121 on: January 08, 2021, 04:54:52 pm »
Quote
Quote
Nope, I'm actually on the bottom floor.
I bet there's a fairly long drop before the sewer, otherwise it wouldn't flush so well. When the toilet flushes, the inertia and siphon effect of the water passing down the long pipe, helps suck the rest of the contents of the toilet bowl out. If you've got a short pipe going into the sewer, it won't flush so well.
I don't believe the physics of siphons work that way. Inertia has nothing to do with it. But moreover, my toilet (like all of them I have ever seen here in Switzerland) is a non-siphon toilet. In my case (like in essentially all modern toilets here) it's a washdown toilet.

Assuming your country flag is correct, you're in the UK, where washdown toilets are also the norm. True siphon toilets (the dominant type in my home country of USA) are entirely different beasts.
Yes, I'm in the UK and it is a washdown toilet. I believe the momentum of the water going down the drain is helping to flush the upstairs toilet, better than the downstairs. They're both exactly the same brand, model and age, so I can't think of any other reason why this is the case. The only other explanation is the downstairs one has some sort of fault, but it's not like it doesn't flush at all, just not so well.

I’d be looking into the tank. It’s probably not opening its valve as fully, or it’s not filling to the same amount.

That graphic, while amusing, is kinda wrong. The water level in the drain pipe cannot be higher than in the bowl. The little dam in the back is what defines the water level. The key thing in a washdown toilet is that the pipe does NOT fill with water. It flows “open” like in a sewer. That image was clearly originally of one with a floor drain, not a wall drain. I’ve added a corrected version using my mad art skillz: fat yellow for the floor drain flow, red for the correct wall drain position, thin yellow for wall drain flow. I’ve also attached an image of a modern designer bowl whose geometry is somewhat closer to your image’s. :p
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #122 on: January 08, 2021, 06:29:46 pm »
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Nope, I'm actually on the bottom floor.
I bet there's a fairly long drop before the sewer, otherwise it wouldn't flush so well. When the toilet flushes, the inertia and siphon effect of the water passing down the long pipe, helps suck the rest of the contents of the toilet bowl out. If you've got a short pipe going into the sewer, it won't flush so well.
I don't believe the physics of siphons work that way. Inertia has nothing to do with it. But moreover, my toilet (like all of them I have ever seen here in Switzerland) is a non-siphon toilet. In my case (like in essentially all modern toilets here) it's a washdown toilet.

Assuming your country flag is correct, you're in the UK, where washdown toilets are also the norm. True siphon toilets (the dominant type in my home country of USA) are entirely different beasts.
Yes, I'm in the UK and it is a washdown toilet. I believe the momentum of the water going down the drain is helping to flush the upstairs toilet, better than the downstairs. They're both exactly the same brand, model and age, so I can't think of any other reason why this is the case. The only other explanation is the downstairs one has some sort of fault, but it's not like it doesn't flush at all, just not so well.

That graphic, while amusing, is kinda wrong. The water level in the drain pipe cannot be higher than in the bowl.
I accept that my drawing is wrong, but there was reasoning behind it. I know that the water level in the drain will not sit higher than the bowl in the steady state, but after it's flushed, I thought the inertia due to the water flowing down the drain, would suck on the water in the bowl, momentarily reducing the surface level. I have noticed, that after I flush, the water level in the bowl does drop slightly, before going back up again.

Quote
The little dam in the back is what defines the water level. The key thing in a washdown toilet is that the pipe does NOT fill with water. It flows “open” like in a sewer. That image was clearly originally of one with a floor drain, not a wall drain. I’ve added a corrected version using my mad art skillz: fat yellow for the floor drain flow, red for the correct wall drain position, thin yellow for wall drain flow. I’ve also attached an image of a modern designer bowl whose geometry is somewhat closer to your image’s. :p
What stops the pipe behind the toilet from filling with water?

Quote
I’d be looking into the tank. It’s probably not opening its valve as fully, or it’s not filling to the same amount.
I think I might talk to my dad who's a chartered surveyor. If he doesn't know what's wrong, he'll be able to recommend a good plumber. It'll have to wait until the COVID situation improves, as the toilet still works and even if it stops, I've still got the upstairs one.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #123 on: January 10, 2021, 01:28:19 am »
Quote
Quote
Nope, I'm actually on the bottom floor.
I bet there's a fairly long drop before the sewer, otherwise it wouldn't flush so well. When the toilet flushes, the inertia and siphon effect of the water passing down the long pipe, helps suck the rest of the contents of the toilet bowl out. If you've got a short pipe going into the sewer, it won't flush so well.
I don't believe the physics of siphons work that way. Inertia has nothing to do with it. But moreover, my toilet (like all of them I have ever seen here in Switzerland) is a non-siphon toilet. In my case (like in essentially all modern toilets here) it's a washdown toilet.

Assuming your country flag is correct, you're in the UK, where washdown toilets are also the norm. True siphon toilets (the dominant type in my home country of USA) are entirely different beasts.
Yes, I'm in the UK and it is a washdown toilet. I believe the momentum of the water going down the drain is helping to flush the upstairs toilet, better than the downstairs. They're both exactly the same brand, model and age, so I can't think of any other reason why this is the case. The only other explanation is the downstairs one has some sort of fault, but it's not like it doesn't flush at all, just not so well.

That graphic, while amusing, is kinda wrong. The water level in the drain pipe cannot be higher than in the bowl.
I accept that my drawing is wrong, but there was reasoning behind it. I know that the water level in the drain will not sit higher than the bowl in the steady state, but after it's flushed, I thought the inertia due to the water flowing down the drain, would suck on the water in the bowl, momentarily reducing the surface level. I have noticed, that after I flush, the water level in the bowl does drop slightly, before going back up again.

Quote
The little dam in the back is what defines the water level. The key thing in a washdown toilet is that the pipe does NOT fill with water. It flows “open” like in a sewer. That image was clearly originally of one with a floor drain, not a wall drain. I’ve added a corrected version using my mad art skillz: fat yellow for the floor drain flow, red for the correct wall drain position, thin yellow for wall drain flow. I’ve also attached an image of a modern designer bowl whose geometry is somewhat closer to your image’s. :p
What stops the pipe behind the toilet from filling with water?

Because the drain pipes on washdown toilets are huge. They’re not the deliberately thin drains of siphon toilets. This is all explained in the wiki article by the way...

As such, there is no “suction” on the water in the bowl. It’s at ambient air pressure.

Go to your kitchen sink with a skillet. Put some peas in it. Turn on the tap at full blast. Hold the pan at a 45 degree angle and hold it under the tap. See how the water flushes the peas out of the skillet? You’ve just demonstrated how a washdown toilet works. No suction, vacuum, or siphon involved.
 
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Offline nuclearcat

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #124 on: January 10, 2021, 03:14:11 am »
Back to the beginning. Has anyone read https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2020L01656 at all?
(10 Fasteners for doors or covers to compartments holding button / coin batteries must be captive etc.)
As i understand, it's enough to stop making shitty flimsy battery covers that fall apart from touch.
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The consumer goods must be designed to ensure the screws or similar fasteners used to secure the door or cover providing access to the compartment are captive and remain with the door or cover.

"one child a month"

Yeah so who cares. Natural selection. If we needed to prevent any misuse of any product everything would be forbidden, even spoons.
Well, actually things are serious:
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Every day in Australia there is at least one child who needs to be hospitalised because they have swallowed a button battery.
In most cases such injury ends up in lifelong disabilities.

It seems to me that this is a bit extreme regulation.
Manufacturers should mark devices child-safe or not child-safe, maybe making separate version (like tv remotes), that are slightly more expensive due manufacturing efforts.
Families with small children should buy child-safe devices and it is THEIR responsibility, to keep non-child-safe devices away. And when such marking "child safe" exist - it will be really trivial. If it is electronic device and you don't see marking "child safe" - keep it damn locked, like a loaded gun.
Because some specialized devices have sealing gasket designed for specific way they are opened, and redesigning them to be children-safe wont be trivial, most likely device will disappear from australian market. Like this: https://help.thermoworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Classic-Thermapen-Battery-Cover-Open.jpg
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 03:15:45 am by nuclearcat »
 


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