Author Topic: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia  (Read 18420 times)

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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #50 on: December 25, 2020, 09:32:37 pm »
And here in the US there are quite a few safety rules made without considering whether they actually improve safety.
That’s everywhere: politicians need to be seen as “doing something about [problem]” so they pass a law addressing that one thing without evaluating follow-on effects or the big picture in general.

One that I believe has finally been corrected was one that forbid employers from providing iced or chilled water to their workers.  It had a huge impact on me and my fellow workers as I worked my way through school in and outdoor steel fabrication yard where we didn't really know how hot it was because the available glass bulb thermometers went to the top and popped.  Something well over 120 F.  It finally was recognized that the rule had propagated from a time before mechanical refrigeration, when ice came from lakes and ponds cut and stored during the winter for summer use.  And when no real provisions were made to assure that the ice wasn't cut from animal latrines or contaminated by rodents in storage.
Citation needed.

By the time the US started passing food safety and workplace safety laws, ice harvesting was already dead, since mechanical refrigeration had fully replaced harvested ice with manufactured ice.

What is true is that ice water can be dangerous in extremely hot environments. For that reason, some employers might have chosen to not offer it. That or they were cheapskates.

I don't have a citation, this is from my teen years.  It was in osha early days and I was told that their first rule sets were just a union of all the state safety laws.  And included this archaic law from one of the northern tier states got swept into the mix.   As to the dangers of serving iced or chilled drinks, if it is a problem every restaurant and fast food place in the southern tier of states is killing people right and left.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2020, 12:17:01 am »
As a design engineer, the most regulation there is, the better. Even if it causes headaches sometimes.

Bullshit. There needs to be some regulation, but there is already way, way too much regulation in the world and much of it does nothing BUT cause headaches. Over-regulation ruins products that could be good, and takes perfectly good products that worked off the market and replaces them with crap. Want a specific example? Try using one of the idiotic CARB-compliant portable gas (petrol) cans that are mandated across the USA now. They are not allowed to have a vent (because vapor may escape) and they are required to be "child proof". The result is cans that blow up like a balloon if left in the sun then spray gasoline vapor everywhere when you manage to release the nozzle, an act which usually requires 3 hands. Then because there can't be a vent, as gas pours out the air has to go in the nozzle so they go GLUG gurgle gurgle GLUG gurgle GLUG and dump gas all over the place when trying to fill the small tanks on portable equipment. If you want to use one to put gas in a car forget it, the stupid nozzles won't fit properly in a lot of car gas fillers, and if you do manage to get it in they flow so slowly that your arm will fall off trying to hold the thing up. They are absolutely useless garbage that accomplish the exact opposite of everything they the new regulation was supposed to do. It's so bad that an array of companies sprouted up selling "water jugs" and nozzles for said jugs which are quite obviously gas cans but can't be sold as such. I HATE excessive safety regulations, I'd roll back a huge range of regulations given the chance. If you want to buy some overly regulated headache inducing piece of crap that is your right, but don't force it on me.
IMHO, the US doesn't have a problem of excessive regulation, but of poorly-designed legislation.

But first, a lot of legislation isn't what people think it is. Your example of the gas cans is a perfect one. The law itself is not nearly as draconian or unreasonable as you make it out to be.

The CARB regulation requires the cans to seal automatically and to be made such as to reduce permeation of the fuel. It does NOT ban a vent:
Quote
A portable fuel container system may incorporate a secondary opening (i.e. an opening other than the opening needed for the spout) provided the secondary opening is not easily tampered with by a consumer, and it does not emit hydrocarbon vapors in excess of the amounts specified in this procedure during fueling, storage, transportation, or handling events.
Any secondary opening that relieves pressure and improves fuel flow during dispensing shall be normally closed and must automatically return to the closed position when released.
Source: https://www.arb.ca.gov/consprod/fuel-containers/pfc/pfccp501.pdf (the certification requirements)
https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/consprod/fuel-containers/pfc/pfcreg2016.pdf (the regulatory order itself, which references the certification requirements and gives them power of law)

The regulation places limits on vapor escape, requires it to be self-closing, so people don't accidentally leave it uncapped, and specifies that it may not leak. What the law doesn't do is tell manufacturers how to implement those requirements. What this means is that some manufacturers will take the easy and cheap route by making some shitty product with no vent.

But it is possible to make compliant cans that work just fine: https://www.jlconline.com/tools/trucks-equipment/gas-cans-that-actually-work_o

In fact, the regulatory order itself expressly allows for manufacturers to apply for an exemption from what little implementation details are given, if they have an "innovative" design that accomplishes the same goals a different way than the law envisions:
Quote
The Executive Officer may exempt a portable fuel container from one or more of the requirements of section 2467.2 if a manufacturer demonstrates by clear and convincing evidence that, due to the product’s design, delivery system, or other factors, the use of the product will result in cumulative TOG emissions below the highest emitting representative portable fuel container system in its product category as determined from applicable testing.

This seems to me to be a very sensible, reasonable law, written such as to not prescribe a particular product design.

In other words, don't blame a law (which itself is perfectly sensible, both in intent and expression) for the shoddy work of crappy manufacturers who are simply too lazy to get it right.


Meanwhile, remember that safety and environmental laws are written in blood. They're not there for shits and giggles, but because they're needed to prevent harm. The fact that millions of easily-avoided workplace injuries happen each year shows that the need for such regulations is real. Similarly, the abominable state of the nutritional supplements industry demonstrates precisely why medical products need strong oversight. Those are just two examples.


I do, however, agree that regulations need to be done right, and that means a) making a sincere effort to weigh the benefits of the change against the negative consequences, and b) being willing to quickly and decisively rescind or modify a regulation if it has unforeseen negative consequences. But the latter is something governments in USA are almost never willing to do. So bad regulation, instead of being rescinded, gets more and more crap slathered onto it, with lawmakers digging in their heels rather than simply saying "hey, this didn't work out, so let's undo it, regroup, and do something else".


What I am absolutely against are the kinds of regulations (the kind usually snuck in as "pork") designed to tip the scales for a particular company or special interest group, or more broadly, anything designed only to be anti-competitive, without significant merit of its own. 


One that I believe has finally been corrected was one that forbid employers from providing iced or chilled water to their workers.  It had a huge impact on me and my fellow workers as I worked my way through school in and outdoor steel fabrication yard where we didn't really know how hot it was because the available glass bulb thermometers went to the top and popped.  Something well over 120 F.  It finally was recognized that the rule had propagated from a time before mechanical refrigeration, when ice came from lakes and ponds cut and stored during the winter for summer use.  And when no real provisions were made to assure that the ice wasn't cut from animal latrines or contaminated by rodents in storage.
Citation needed.

By the time the US started passing food safety and workplace safety laws, ice harvesting was already dead, since mechanical refrigeration had fully replaced harvested ice with manufactured ice.

What is true is that ice water can be dangerous in extremely hot environments. For that reason, some employers might have chosen to not offer it. That or they were cheapskates.

I don't have a citation, this is from my teen years.  It was in osha early days and I was told that their first rule sets were just a union of all the state safety laws.  And included this archaic law from one of the northern tier states got swept into the mix.   As to the dangers of serving iced or chilled drinks, if it is a problem every restaurant and fast food place in the southern tier of states is killing people right and left.
<sass>Honey, I lived in the deep south until I was 12 (and in Maryland for 10 years)… I know all about those sticky, sweltering 100˚F-in-the-shade-and-90%-humidity summers! :P

Anyhow, I said it can be dangerous, in that it can cause problems if drunk too quickly. My mom grew up in Miami and says she had a high school classmate who died from chugging lots of ice water after getting heatstroke playing sports outdoors in the summer. They were taught to be careful. Of course, deaths are very, very rare. But chugging ice water can also lead to light-headedness and stomach cramps, and it actually rehydrates the body more slowly than more temperate water.
 
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Offline Doctorandus_P

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2020, 12:42:23 am »
I'm wondering how long it will take before people are forbidden to drive a car because it's considered too dangerous.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2020, 01:21:11 am »
What happened to the common sense of keeping small stuff that can be potentially swallowed away from the reach of your toddler? Are they going to legislate that also medicines and magnets must be kept in a locked safe (both can kill if swallowed) and clothing irons and hot water are to be totally verboten if there is a toddler in the household? What about knives? Do they also have to be all dull if there are kids around?

This is a pretty ridiculous answer to this problem, IMO.
You joke, but hot water from the tap is legislated in Australia to be "warm water" for just this reason.:
https://www.vba.vic.gov.au/consumers/guides/hot-water-safety
With special lower limits for the very old and very young.

Owing to plumbers not wanting to run multiple hot water feeds within a house all outlets have the same temperature. This leads to people boiling water in a kettle when they want to do the washing with "hot" water.

In Western Australia, the water from the hot tap is quite hot enough for any practical purposes.
Actual "boiling" water in your system is a great way to get vapour lock & "banging" sounds from your pipes.
How many people would ever check the temperature of the hot water flowing into their washing machine?
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2020, 01:31:28 am »
I'm wondering how long it will take before people are forbidden to drive a car because it's considered too dangerous.
I don't know when this is going to happen, but with self driving cars the barriers are starting to crumble.

One thing is that, in my opinion, the barrier to maneuver a multi-ton piece of metal is very, very low. A comparison between the type of driving lessons my parents and I had was very revealing - a metric ton of information and good practices were thrown out of the window, but fortunately they taught me well at home. Also, people confuse that driving is a concession and not a right. 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2020, 01:41:45 am »
IMHO, the US doesn't have a problem of excessive regulation, but of poorly-designed legislation.

But first, a lot of legislation isn't what people think it is. Your example of the gas cans is a perfect one. The law itself is not nearly as draconian or unreasonable as you make it out to be.

The CARB regulation requires the cans to seal automatically and to be made such as to reduce permeation of the fuel. It does NOT ban a vent:
Quote
A portable fuel container system may incorporate a secondary opening (i.e. an opening other than the opening needed for the spout) provided the secondary opening is not easily tampered with by a consumer, and it does not emit hydrocarbon vapors in excess of the amounts specified in this procedure during fueling, storage, transportation, or handling events.
Any secondary opening that relieves pressure and improves fuel flow during dispensing shall be normally closed and must automatically return to the closed position when released.
Source: https://www.arb.ca.gov/consprod/fuel-containers/pfc/pfccp501.pdf (the certification requirements)
https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/consprod/fuel-containers/pfc/pfcreg2016.pdf (the regulatory order itself, which references the certification requirements and gives them power of law)

The regulation places limits on vapor escape, requires it to be self-closing, so people don't accidentally leave it uncapped, and specifies that it may not leak. What the law doesn't do is tell manufacturers how to implement those requirements. What this means is that some manufacturers will take the easy and cheap route by making some shitty product with no vent.

But it is possible to make compliant cans that work just fine: https://www.jlconline.com/tools/trucks-equipment/gas-cans-that-actually-work_o

In fact, the regulatory order itself expressly allows for manufacturers to apply for an exemption from what little implementation details are given, if they have an "innovative" design that accomplishes the same goals a different way than the law envisions:
Quote
The Executive Officer may exempt a portable fuel container from one or more of the requirements of section 2467.2 if a manufacturer demonstrates by clear and convincing evidence that, due to the product’s design, delivery system, or other factors, the use of the product will result in cumulative TOG emissions below the highest emitting representative portable fuel container system in its product category as determined from applicable testing.

This seems to me to be a very sensible, reasonable law, written such as to not prescribe a particular product design.

In other words, don't blame a law (which itself is perfectly sensible, both in intent and expression) for the shoddy work of crappy manufacturers who are simply too lazy to get it right.

No, the law is not sensible, the law is garbage. It was poorly thought out and poorly implemented, and it is an objectively true fact that 100% of the products compliant with the law are inferior to those on the market prior to the law, about 90% of them are complete shit and the other 10% cost three times as much as the old ones that worked. It's the self-closing mandate on the vent that makes it useless, so that nearly everybody who actually tries using one of these cans quickly modifies it to eliminate the problem. Only an idiot leaves the vent cap open when they're done using the fuel can, doing so allows the expensive fuel to evaporate and contamination to get in. Really, how hard it is it to close the vent when you finish and why do we need a law that mandates a stupid overly complex self closing vent? What next? Automatic zipping pants so people don't forget to put their pecker away when they finish peeing? No thanks, I'll drill a hole and install a tire valve stem as a vent and replace the nozzle whenever I encounter one of those cans, it is a functionally superior solution. Or I can pick up a can next door in Canada because they're sensible enough to have not adopted the ridiculous US law.

How anyone could say that the gas can law is sensible with a straight face I truly cannot understand. What the law intended may in some "treat everyone like helpless children who cannot be trusted to do anything right" society be reasonable, the unintended consequence that it actually results in is an array of worthless products that are compliant with the law as written but do exactly the opposite of what the law intended. That is virtually the definition of a stupid law written by people with no understanding of the thing they were trying to legislate. I don't think anyone who has ever actually used one of those newer cans could possibly agree that they're an improvement. 
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2020, 01:48:15 am »
In Western Australia, the water from the hot tap is quite hot enough for any practical purposes.
Actual "boiling" water in your system is a great way to get vapour lock & "banging" sounds from your pipes.
How many people would ever check the temperature of the hot water flowing into their washing machine?

It's quite hot enough for anything you do, but not everybody has the same requirements and expectations as you. How about leaving the choice of water temperature up to the consumer? Really, how hard is it to have a control like our water heaters have which shows the recommended maximum but does not prevent those who desire hotter water from turning it up higher? If you often run out of hot water you can turn it up higher and then it mixes with more cold water at the tap and you get the effect of a larger water heater. Why are some people so obsessed with dictating what other people do?
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #57 on: December 27, 2020, 02:36:38 am »
In Western Australia, the water from the hot tap is quite hot enough for any practical purposes.
Actual "boiling" water in your system is a great way to get vapour lock & "banging" sounds from your pipes.
How many people would ever check the temperature of the hot water flowing into their washing machine?

It's quite hot enough for anything you do, but not everybody has the same requirements and expectations as you. How about leaving the choice of water temperature up to the consumer? Really, how hard is it to have a control like our water heaters have which shows the recommended maximum but does not prevent those who desire hotter water from turning it up higher? If you often run out of hot water you can turn it up higher and then it mixes with more cold water at the tap and you get the effect of a larger water heater. Why are some people so obsessed with dictating what other people do?

Because many Australians have Solar hot water systems on the roof, where you can't get to them, even if they had variable controls, & other types of heaters are not normally fitted with such controls (not from the Victorian law quoted earlier---that's just the way they make 'em, in Oz, China, or whatever).

If you keep your hands under the hot tap in my kitchen, it gets painful enough that you have to move your hand away.
An adult's hand looks red after this, but not damaged ------a child would suffer burns.

Many people do "cold water"washes these days,-------modern fabric doesn't much like hot water, any "germ reducing" effect of clothes washing with hot water has been pretty much debunked, & in any case disinfectant added to the water will do about as much, or more.

Nobody uses hot water out of the tap for cooking, due to the (maybe) small amount of metallic contamination more likely in storage of hot water than direct flow from the mains.
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2020, 03:59:22 am »
Aside from the potential risk factors associated with coin cells there are a multitude of devices around that simply should not use them in the first place. For example, I have a set of poorly designed kitchen scales which look like they were originally made to take two CR-2032 batteries but instead eat only one at a time. In desperation recently I modified them to take two AA batteries in an external holder but there is more than ample room to fit a couple of AA or AAA batteries internally which is what the manufacturer should have done in the first place. I also encountered the same thing again in a set of digital bathroom scales which also used two CR-2032 batteries, sick of replacing batteries I wired those up to a plug pack.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2020, 04:20:40 am »
In Western Australia, the water from the hot tap is quite hot enough for any practical purposes.
Actual "boiling" water in your system is a great way to get vapour lock & "banging" sounds from your pipes.
How many people would ever check the temperature of the hot water flowing into their washing machine?

It's quite hot enough for anything you do, but not everybody has the same requirements and expectations as you. How about leaving the choice of water temperature up to the consumer? Really, how hard is it to have a control like our water heaters have which shows the recommended maximum but does not prevent those who desire hotter water from turning it up higher? If you often run out of hot water you can turn it up higher and then it mixes with more cold water at the tap and you get the effect of a larger water heater. Why are some people so obsessed with dictating what other people do?

Because many Australians have Solar hot water systems on the roof, where you can't get to them, even if they had variable controls, & other types of heaters are not normally fitted with such controls (not from the Victorian law quoted earlier---that's just the way they make 'em, in Oz, China, or whatever).

If you keep your hands under the hot tap in my kitchen, it gets painful enough that you have to move your hand away.
An adult's hand looks red after this, but not damaged ------a child would suffer burns.

Many people do "cold water"washes these days,-------modern fabric doesn't much like hot water, any "germ reducing" effect of clothes washing with hot water has been pretty much debunked, & in any case disinfectant added to the water will do about as much, or more.

Nobody uses hot water out of the tap for cooking, due to the (maybe) small amount of metallic contamination more likely in storage of hot water than direct flow from the mains.
dishwashing works much better with a higher temperature water.

Most water heaters do have a way to adjust their operating temperature as its important for hygiene/public health and a plumber is supposed to verify/calibrate it. That is another temperature control in addition to the tempering valve.

Western Australia enacted the legislation later but they do have it in force:
https://noprobsplumbing.com.au/tempering-valve/ (lacking a better reference since I'm not in that market/jurisdiction)
Existing installations are exempt, and as mentioned above its possible to have an install where the kitchen and laundry taps do have a higher temperature but very very few domestic installs add that extra expense. That you haven't experienced it doesn't mean its not a requirement in the building codes.

I personally don't feel enough pain to remove my hand quickly from a 50 degree C water flow, but its still hot enough you can't remain submerged in it for long. So your measure of "Hot" is practically meaningless. Some food/cooking fats melt above 50 degrees, which is why dishwashing really benefits from higher temperatures.
 

Offline Doctorandus_P

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2020, 06:59:02 am »
Some time ago I made a mistake during dishwashing with gloves on. I held one hand too close to the running tap and hot water ran into the glove and burned my hand. It took me some seconds to take of the glove and cool my hand, but it kept hurting for about half a day. I later checked the temperature and it was 74 Celcius.

The next day it did not trouble me anymore.
I'm glad to have the right to do stupid things.
It's from mistakes like this that you learn to be a bit more careful.
If you try to diminish all risk from life a fool will just find a bigger stupidity to commit.
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2020, 07:09:33 am »
In Western Australia, the water from the hot tap is quite hot enough for any practical purposes.
Actual "boiling" water in your system is a great way to get vapour lock & "banging" sounds from your pipes.
How many people would ever check the temperature of the hot water flowing into their washing machine?

It's quite hot enough for anything you do, but not everybody has the same requirements and expectations as you. How about leaving the choice of water temperature up to the consumer? Really, how hard is it to have a control like our water heaters have which shows the recommended maximum but does not prevent those who desire hotter water from turning it up higher? If you often run out of hot water you can turn it up higher and then it mixes with more cold water at the tap and you get the effect of a larger water heater. Why are some people so obsessed with dictating what other people do?

Because many Australians have Solar hot water systems on the roof, where you can't get to them, even if they had variable controls, & other types of heaters are not normally fitted with such controls (not from the Victorian law quoted earlier---that's just the way they make 'em, in Oz, China, or whatever).

If you keep your hands under the hot tap in my kitchen, it gets painful enough that you have to move your hand away.
An adult's hand looks red after this, but not damaged ------a child would suffer burns.

Many people do "cold water"washes these days,-------modern fabric doesn't much like hot water, any "germ reducing" effect of clothes washing with hot water has been pretty much debunked, & in any case disinfectant added to the water will do about as much, or more.

Nobody uses hot water out of the tap for cooking, due to the (maybe) small amount of metallic contamination more likely in storage of hot water than direct flow from the mains.
dishwashing works much better with a higher temperature water.

Most water heaters do have a way to adjust their operating temperature as its important for hygiene/public health and a plumber is supposed to verify/calibrate it. That is another temperature control in addition to the tempering valve.

Western Australia enacted the legislation later but they do have it in force:
https://noprobsplumbing.com.au/tempering-valve/ (lacking a better reference since I'm not in that market/jurisdiction)
Existing installations are exempt, and as mentioned above its possible to have an install where the kitchen and laundry taps do have a higher temperature but very very few domestic installs add that extra expense. That you haven't experienced it doesn't mean its not a requirement in the building codes.

I personally don't feel enough pain to remove my hand quickly from a 50 degree C water flow, but its still hot enough you can't remain submerged in it for long. So your measure of "Hot" is practically meaningless. Some food/cooking fats melt above 50 degrees, which is why dishwashing really benefits from higher temperatures.
Maybe with a machine, but it makes no difference with a human, who can see where the gunk is & remove it.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2020, 09:15:08 am »

 Also, people confuse that driving is a concession and not a right.

Well actually it is.  Where did we start thinking that anything not specifically allowed was forbidden?

Restrictions on any activity should be thoughtful concessions to the public good.  Licensing for vehicle operation is one of those rightful concessions in my opinion, but should always be thought of that way.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2020, 09:43:44 am »
That you haven't experienced it doesn't mean its not a requirement in the building codes.
...and that people won't just mod it themselves if they really want "real" hot water, codes be damned.

Then again, living in a nanny state probably beats the motivation out of you to do anything but comply. ::)
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2020, 10:21:16 am »

 Also, people confuse that driving is a concession and not a right.

Well actually it is.  Where did we start thinking that anything not specifically allowed was forbidden?

Restrictions on any activity should be thoughtful concessions to the public good.  Licensing for vehicle operation is one of those rightful concessions in my opinion, but should always be thought of that way.
Re-reading my post I wonder if it could be interpreted in two ways, so I am unsure if we have the same point of view. The way I see it is that a right is something you have inalienably. Driving is something that, although many people have, it is conceded after you prove yourself capable and need to constantly prove compliance.

Ah, found the phrase: "driving is a privilege and not a right".
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2020, 10:26:41 am »
Aside from the potential risk factors associated with coin cells there are a multitude of devices around that simply should not use them in the first place.
I agree with you if the rate of replacement is indeed too high, but otherwise I would take a CR2032 any day. Too many appliances lost due to these stupid ultra low quality AA/AAA cells. :rant:
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2020, 11:32:50 am »
I'm wondering how long it will take before people are forbidden to drive a car because it's considered too dangerous.
Or a motorcycle. Especially one that used a coin cell somewhere.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #67 on: December 27, 2020, 11:45:36 am »
In Western Australia, the water from the hot tap is quite hot enough for any practical purposes.
Actual "boiling" water in your system is a great way to get vapour lock & "banging" sounds from your pipes.
How many people would ever check the temperature of the hot water flowing into their washing machine?

It's quite hot enough for anything you do, but not everybody has the same requirements and expectations as you. How about leaving the choice of water temperature up to the consumer? Really, how hard is it to have a control like our water heaters have which shows the recommended maximum but does not prevent those who desire hotter water from turning it up higher? If you often run out of hot water you can turn it up higher and then it mixes with more cold water at the tap and you get the effect of a larger water heater. Why are some people so obsessed with dictating what other people do?
Because often times the user of a device and the purchaser of a device is not the same person.
I was able to tell my landlord few years ago, that the installed electrical cabinet, with a single fuse, is not up to the building code. If I wanted, I could refuse to pay rent until he fixes it. Because the law said so. He fixed it within a week.

The same applies to many work related objects. The less regulation there is, the shittiest tools and appliances you get for your job. And if you ask for the safe and reliable tools: "but we already have one, use that".

This is not a unique situation, billions of people use object, that someone else purchased. Like toys. A kid will want a toy, based on the Disney figure on it's side, not the quality of the injection mold, or the battery compartment.

It is probably hard to understand this on the "land of the free*", but most laws are made for you, not against you. Because freedom also means that everyone is free to take advantage of you. That stupid screw costs 0.1 cent. And you are not a toy designer, move on.

*read it as explained in Jim Jefferies: Freedumb
 
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #68 on: December 27, 2020, 01:25:27 pm »

 Also, people confuse that driving is a concession and not a right.

Well actually it is.  Where did we start thinking that anything not specifically allowed was forbidden?

Restrictions on any activity should be thoughtful concessions to the public good.  Licensing for vehicle operation is one of those rightful concessions in my opinion, but should always be thought of that way.
Re-reading my post I wonder if it could be interpreted in two ways, so I am unsure if we have the same point of view. The way I see it is that a right is something you have inalienably. Driving is something that, although many people have, it is conceded after you prove yourself capable and need to constantly prove compliance.

Ah, found the phrase: "driving is a privilege and not a right".

I am not sure we agree.  We do agree that driving should be restricted to those who have demonstrated that they can responsibly share the roads with others.  But we seem to come at it from different directions.  I view it as a restriction on the general right of anyone to do anything.  A step that while necessary, should be taken carefully and reluctantly.  While you seem to view it as a generous and limited gift to be parceled out.

In a more electronics related example restrictions on radio emissions are needed for the common good.  Use of the spectrum in the absence of that common good requirement is not something that should be owned by the government.  And no one pretends that it was prior to 1900 or so.  Hertz and Marconi didn't have to ask permission to perform their experiments.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #69 on: December 27, 2020, 07:28:42 pm »
I view it as a restriction on the general right of anyone to do anything.  A step that while necessary, should be taken carefully and reluctantly.  While you seem to view it as a generous and limited gift to be parceled out.
I see your point and I come from the same position (english is not my first language and, from time to time, I still stumble). Perhaps it was my sentence about the low bar, but I dunno.

In a more electronics related example restrictions on radio emissions are needed for the common good.  Use of the spectrum in the absence of that common good requirement is not something that should be owned by the government.  And no one pretends that it was prior to 1900 or so.  Hertz and Marconi didn't have to ask permission to perform their experiments.
Yes, at the beginning of a new technology the regulations are not in place, but they end up creeping up at some time - faster if there is a potential for or actual competition/revenue.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #70 on: December 27, 2020, 10:38:57 pm »
If you keep your hands under the hot tap in my kitchen, it gets painful enough that you have to move your hand away.
An adult's hand looks red after this, but not damaged ------a child would suffer burns.

That's how hot water is supposed to work. I can't hold my hand under the hot water from the tap in my kitchen, it's hot. If it was so cool that I could hold my hand under it then it isn't hot enough to be acceptable. I'm not a child, I don't have children, if I did then I would consider turning down the hot water until they are old enough to be taught not to put their hands under hot water. If you want lukewarm water then you have that choice, but you have no right to dictate to everyone else how hot their water can be, or to tell them what is hot enough. Your get to rule your household, no further.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #71 on: December 27, 2020, 10:45:05 pm »
Maybe with a machine, but it makes no difference with a human, who can see where the gunk is & remove it.

Who washes dishes by hand? I'll occasionally wash something that way if I need it right away or if it's too big to fit well in the dishwasher but I don't know anybody who regularly does their dishes by hand, nearly everyone has a dishwasher.
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #72 on: December 27, 2020, 10:50:48 pm »


Quote
Who washes dishes by hand? I'll occasionally wash something that way if I need it right away or if it's too big to fit well in the dishwasher but I don't know anybody who regularly does their dishes by hand
you do now,dont own,never had nor ever  want a dishwasher,total waste of energy, space and money
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #73 on: December 27, 2020, 10:55:23 pm »
Because often times the user of a device and the purchaser of a device is not the same person.
I was able to tell my landlord few years ago, that the installed electrical cabinet, with a single fuse, is not up to the building code. If I wanted, I could refuse to pay rent until he fixes it. Because the law said so. He fixed it within a week.

The same applies to many work related objects. The less regulation there is, the shittiest tools and appliances you get for your job. And if you ask for the safe and reliable tools: "but we already have one, use that".

This is not a unique situation, billions of people use object, that someone else purchased. Like toys. A kid will want a toy, based on the Disney figure on it's side, not the quality of the injection mold, or the battery compartment.

It is probably hard to understand this on the "land of the free*", but most laws are made for you, not against you. Because freedom also means that everyone is free to take advantage of you. That stupid screw costs 0.1 cent. And you are not a toy designer, move on.

*read it as explained in Jim Jefferies: Freedumb


I'd be inclined to tell you to vacate so I can move someone else in there.

I don't care what the screw costs, I care that it's annoying because I have to go find a damn screwdriver every time I want to change the batteries on something, then I have to go put the screwdriver away when I'm finished, and it's so bloody pointless because any 3 year old could go get a screwdriver as easily as I can so what's even the point? Whenever reasonably possible I throw away the screw and find an alternate method to hold the cover on. The old style covers that click shut are so much more convenient and I resent having my convenience reduced in a futile attempt to protect some other person from their own incompetence. The requirement doesn't accomplish the stated goal of making anyone safer, it ONLY makes things less convenient for the majority.

Frankly that wording "most laws are made for you" gives me the creeps. Big Brother knows best. Did you ever read the novel "1984"? It is frightening. Anybody trying to dictate choices for my own good and protect me from myself can go to hell. I deeply resent it, I'm not a child and refuse to be treated like one. The attitude is increasingly prevalent and makes my blood boil. We have created an entire generation that expects to be perpetually shielded from anything and everything that could possibly cause them harm and it results in people who are incapable of dealing with anything.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2020, 11:03:04 pm »
The whole premise of something being safe (coin cell, live mains, or whatever) because it can't be accessed without the use of a tool has become worthless in a modern world, where pretty well everyone has the tool bits, even the tamper proof ones!
Best Regards, Chris
 
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