General > General Technical Chat

Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia

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james_s:

--- Quote from: tooki on December 27, 2020, 12:17:01 am ---IMHO, the US doesn't have a problem of excessive regulation, but of poorly-designed legislation.

But first, a lot of legislation isn't what people think it is. Your example of the gas cans is a perfect one. The law itself is not nearly as draconian or unreasonable as you make it out to be.

The CARB regulation requires the cans to seal automatically and to be made such as to reduce permeation of the fuel. It does NOT ban a vent:

--- Quote ---A portable fuel container system may incorporate a secondary opening (i.e. an opening other than the opening needed for the spout) provided the secondary opening is not easily tampered with by a consumer, and it does not emit hydrocarbon vapors in excess of the amounts specified in this procedure during fueling, storage, transportation, or handling events.
Any secondary opening that relieves pressure and improves fuel flow during dispensing shall be normally closed and must automatically return to the closed position when released.
--- End quote ---
Source: https://www.arb.ca.gov/consprod/fuel-containers/pfc/pfccp501.pdf (the certification requirements)
https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/consprod/fuel-containers/pfc/pfcreg2016.pdf (the regulatory order itself, which references the certification requirements and gives them power of law)

The regulation places limits on vapor escape, requires it to be self-closing, so people don't accidentally leave it uncapped, and specifies that it may not leak. What the law doesn't do is tell manufacturers how to implement those requirements. What this means is that some manufacturers will take the easy and cheap route by making some shitty product with no vent.

But it is possible to make compliant cans that work just fine: https://www.jlconline.com/tools/trucks-equipment/gas-cans-that-actually-work_o

In fact, the regulatory order itself expressly allows for manufacturers to apply for an exemption from what little implementation details are given, if they have an "innovative" design that accomplishes the same goals a different way than the law envisions:

--- Quote ---The Executive Officer may exempt a portable fuel container from one or more of the requirements of section 2467.2 if a manufacturer demonstrates by clear and convincing evidence that, due to the product’s design, delivery system, or other factors, the use of the product will result in cumulative TOG emissions below the highest emitting representative portable fuel container system in its product category as determined from applicable testing.
--- End quote ---

This seems to me to be a very sensible, reasonable law, written such as to not prescribe a particular product design.

In other words, don't blame a law (which itself is perfectly sensible, both in intent and expression) for the shoddy work of crappy manufacturers who are simply too lazy to get it right.

--- End quote ---

No, the law is not sensible, the law is garbage. It was poorly thought out and poorly implemented, and it is an objectively true fact that 100% of the products compliant with the law are inferior to those on the market prior to the law, about 90% of them are complete shit and the other 10% cost three times as much as the old ones that worked. It's the self-closing mandate on the vent that makes it useless, so that nearly everybody who actually tries using one of these cans quickly modifies it to eliminate the problem. Only an idiot leaves the vent cap open when they're done using the fuel can, doing so allows the expensive fuel to evaporate and contamination to get in. Really, how hard it is it to close the vent when you finish and why do we need a law that mandates a stupid overly complex self closing vent? What next? Automatic zipping pants so people don't forget to put their pecker away when they finish peeing? No thanks, I'll drill a hole and install a tire valve stem as a vent and replace the nozzle whenever I encounter one of those cans, it is a functionally superior solution. Or I can pick up a can next door in Canada because they're sensible enough to have not adopted the ridiculous US law.

How anyone could say that the gas can law is sensible with a straight face I truly cannot understand. What the law intended may in some "treat everyone like helpless children who cannot be trusted to do anything right" society be reasonable, the unintended consequence that it actually results in is an array of worthless products that are compliant with the law as written but do exactly the opposite of what the law intended. That is virtually the definition of a stupid law written by people with no understanding of the thing they were trying to legislate. I don't think anyone who has ever actually used one of those newer cans could possibly agree that they're an improvement. 

james_s:

--- Quote from: vk6zgo on December 27, 2020, 01:21:11 am ---In Western Australia, the water from the hot tap is quite hot enough for any practical purposes.
Actual "boiling" water in your system is a great way to get vapour lock & "banging" sounds from your pipes.
How many people would ever check the temperature of the hot water flowing into their washing machine?

--- End quote ---

It's quite hot enough for anything you do, but not everybody has the same requirements and expectations as you. How about leaving the choice of water temperature up to the consumer? Really, how hard is it to have a control like our water heaters have which shows the recommended maximum but does not prevent those who desire hotter water from turning it up higher? If you often run out of hot water you can turn it up higher and then it mixes with more cold water at the tap and you get the effect of a larger water heater. Why are some people so obsessed with dictating what other people do?

vk6zgo:

--- Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2020, 01:48:15 am ---
--- Quote from: vk6zgo on December 27, 2020, 01:21:11 am ---In Western Australia, the water from the hot tap is quite hot enough for any practical purposes.
Actual "boiling" water in your system is a great way to get vapour lock & "banging" sounds from your pipes.
How many people would ever check the temperature of the hot water flowing into their washing machine?

--- End quote ---

It's quite hot enough for anything you do, but not everybody has the same requirements and expectations as you. How about leaving the choice of water temperature up to the consumer? Really, how hard is it to have a control like our water heaters have which shows the recommended maximum but does not prevent those who desire hotter water from turning it up higher? If you often run out of hot water you can turn it up higher and then it mixes with more cold water at the tap and you get the effect of a larger water heater. Why are some people so obsessed with dictating what other people do?

--- End quote ---

Because many Australians have Solar hot water systems on the roof, where you can't get to them, even if they had variable controls, & other types of heaters are not normally fitted with such controls (not from the Victorian law quoted earlier---that's just the way they make 'em, in Oz, China, or whatever).

If you keep your hands under the hot tap in my kitchen, it gets painful enough that you have to move your hand away.
An adult's hand looks red after this, but not damaged ------a child would suffer burns.

Many people do "cold water"washes these days,-------modern fabric doesn't much like hot water, any "germ reducing" effect of clothes washing with hot water has been pretty much debunked, & in any case disinfectant added to the water will do about as much, or more.

Nobody uses hot water out of the tap for cooking, due to the (maybe) small amount of metallic contamination more likely in storage of hot water than direct flow from the mains.

Muttley Snickers:
Aside from the potential risk factors associated with coin cells there are a multitude of devices around that simply should not use them in the first place. For example, I have a set of poorly designed kitchen scales which look like they were originally made to take two CR-2032 batteries but instead eat only one at a time. In desperation recently I modified them to take two AA batteries in an external holder but there is more than ample room to fit a couple of AA or AAA batteries internally which is what the manufacturer should have done in the first place. I also encountered the same thing again in a set of digital bathroom scales which also used two CR-2032 batteries, sick of replacing batteries I wired those up to a plug pack.

Someone:

--- Quote from: vk6zgo on December 27, 2020, 02:36:38 am ---
--- Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2020, 01:48:15 am ---
--- Quote from: vk6zgo on December 27, 2020, 01:21:11 am ---In Western Australia, the water from the hot tap is quite hot enough for any practical purposes.
Actual "boiling" water in your system is a great way to get vapour lock & "banging" sounds from your pipes.
How many people would ever check the temperature of the hot water flowing into their washing machine?

--- End quote ---

It's quite hot enough for anything you do, but not everybody has the same requirements and expectations as you. How about leaving the choice of water temperature up to the consumer? Really, how hard is it to have a control like our water heaters have which shows the recommended maximum but does not prevent those who desire hotter water from turning it up higher? If you often run out of hot water you can turn it up higher and then it mixes with more cold water at the tap and you get the effect of a larger water heater. Why are some people so obsessed with dictating what other people do?

--- End quote ---

Because many Australians have Solar hot water systems on the roof, where you can't get to them, even if they had variable controls, & other types of heaters are not normally fitted with such controls (not from the Victorian law quoted earlier---that's just the way they make 'em, in Oz, China, or whatever).

If you keep your hands under the hot tap in my kitchen, it gets painful enough that you have to move your hand away.
An adult's hand looks red after this, but not damaged ------a child would suffer burns.

Many people do "cold water"washes these days,-------modern fabric doesn't much like hot water, any "germ reducing" effect of clothes washing with hot water has been pretty much debunked, & in any case disinfectant added to the water will do about as much, or more.

Nobody uses hot water out of the tap for cooking, due to the (maybe) small amount of metallic contamination more likely in storage of hot water than direct flow from the mains.

--- End quote ---
dishwashing works much better with a higher temperature water.

Most water heaters do have a way to adjust their operating temperature as its important for hygiene/public health and a plumber is supposed to verify/calibrate it. That is another temperature control in addition to the tempering valve.

Western Australia enacted the legislation later but they do have it in force:
https://noprobsplumbing.com.au/tempering-valve/ (lacking a better reference since I'm not in that market/jurisdiction)
Existing installations are exempt, and as mentioned above its possible to have an install where the kitchen and laundry taps do have a higher temperature but very very few domestic installs add that extra expense. That you haven't experienced it doesn't mean its not a requirement in the building codes.

I personally don't feel enough pain to remove my hand quickly from a 50 degree C water flow, but its still hot enough you can't remain submerged in it for long. So your measure of "Hot" is practically meaningless. Some food/cooking fats melt above 50 degrees, which is why dishwashing really benefits from higher temperatures.

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