Author Topic: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia  (Read 18415 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #75 on: December 27, 2020, 11:03:35 pm »


Quote
Who washes dishes by hand? I'll occasionally wash something that way if I need it right away or if it's too big to fit well in the dishwasher but I don't know anybody who regularly does their dishes by hand
you do now,dont own,never had nor ever  want a dishwasher,total waste of energy, space and money

Space, yeah there is that, UK houses are tiny compared to what I'm used to, no way around that. Money? I got my dishwasher for free but even a new one is only a few hundred bucks. Energy? It costs pennies per wash cycle, and washing by hand isn't free either, I end up using a lot more water washing by hand because the rinse water isn't recirculated at all, it runs right down the drain for each individual dish. A dishwasher also normally heats the water as it circulates so it stays hot without having to drain it and bring in more hot water. The main thing is time, a dishwasher cuts the time I spend washing a load of dishes down to a fraction, and time is by far the most valuable commodity I have. It is the one single thing that I cannot acquire more of and with the time saved not doing a chore I loathe a dishwasher would be an absolute bargain at 10 times what they actually cost.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #76 on: December 28, 2020, 09:38:08 am »
I'd be inclined to tell you to vacate so I can move someone else in there.
[/quote]
Well, unfortunately, you don't get to do that.

Frankly that wording "most laws are made for you" gives me the creeps. Big Brother knows best. Did you ever read the novel "1984"? It is frightening.
So typical. You cannot even imagine anything between "FREEDOOOM!!!" and a dystopian communism, do you.
Yes, if we mandate companies to install a small screw so small children don't choke to their death, we will live in a dystopia. And laws are stupid. And stupid people should die. And spending 30 seconds on a safety measure, is wrong, it makes your life unbearable. Really, you cannot see that you are being an ignorant [insert word here], ranting about safety laws in other countries...

Maybe with a machine, but it makes no difference with a human, who can see where the gunk is & remove it.

Who washes dishes by hand? I'll occasionally wash something that way if I need it right away or if it's too big to fit well in the dishwasher but I don't know anybody who regularly does their dishes by hand, nearly everyone has a dishwasher.
Have you ever stepped outside your country? Your state? Or, you know, see any documentaries on Fox news about other countries?
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #77 on: December 28, 2020, 10:42:10 am »


Quote
Who washes dishes by hand? I'll occasionally wash something that way if I need it right away or if it's too big to fit well in the dishwasher but I don't know anybody who regularly does their dishes by hand
you do now,dont own,never had nor ever  want a dishwasher,total waste of energy, space and money
Dishwashers use far less water (and because of that, far less energy) than handwashing. I have no idea where some people get the idea that dishwashers waste energy, because the exact opposite is true.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2020, 10:47:10 am »
IMHO, the US doesn't have a problem of excessive regulation, but of poorly-designed legislation.

But first, a lot of legislation isn't what people think it is. Your example of the gas cans is a perfect one. The law itself is not nearly as draconian or unreasonable as you make it out to be.

The CARB regulation requires the cans to seal automatically and to be made such as to reduce permeation of the fuel. It does NOT ban a vent:
Quote
A portable fuel container system may incorporate a secondary opening (i.e. an opening other than the opening needed for the spout) provided the secondary opening is not easily tampered with by a consumer, and it does not emit hydrocarbon vapors in excess of the amounts specified in this procedure during fueling, storage, transportation, or handling events.
Any secondary opening that relieves pressure and improves fuel flow during dispensing shall be normally closed and must automatically return to the closed position when released.
Source: https://www.arb.ca.gov/consprod/fuel-containers/pfc/pfccp501.pdf (the certification requirements)
https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/consprod/fuel-containers/pfc/pfcreg2016.pdf (the regulatory order itself, which references the certification requirements and gives them power of law)

The regulation places limits on vapor escape, requires it to be self-closing, so people don't accidentally leave it uncapped, and specifies that it may not leak. What the law doesn't do is tell manufacturers how to implement those requirements. What this means is that some manufacturers will take the easy and cheap route by making some shitty product with no vent.

But it is possible to make compliant cans that work just fine: https://www.jlconline.com/tools/trucks-equipment/gas-cans-that-actually-work_o

In fact, the regulatory order itself expressly allows for manufacturers to apply for an exemption from what little implementation details are given, if they have an "innovative" design that accomplishes the same goals a different way than the law envisions:
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The Executive Officer may exempt a portable fuel container from one or more of the requirements of section 2467.2 if a manufacturer demonstrates by clear and convincing evidence that, due to the product’s design, delivery system, or other factors, the use of the product will result in cumulative TOG emissions below the highest emitting representative portable fuel container system in its product category as determined from applicable testing.

This seems to me to be a very sensible, reasonable law, written such as to not prescribe a particular product design.

In other words, don't blame a law (which itself is perfectly sensible, both in intent and expression) for the shoddy work of crappy manufacturers who are simply too lazy to get it right.

No, the law is not sensible, the law is garbage. It was poorly thought out and poorly implemented, and it is an objectively true fact that 100% of the products compliant with the law are inferior to those on the market prior to the law, about 90% of them are complete shit and the other 10% cost three times as much as the old ones that worked. It's the self-closing mandate on the vent that makes it useless, so that nearly everybody who actually tries using one of these cans quickly modifies it to eliminate the problem. Only an idiot leaves the vent cap open when they're done using the fuel can, doing so allows the expensive fuel to evaporate and contamination to get in. Really, how hard it is it to close the vent when you finish and why do we need a law that mandates a stupid overly complex self closing vent? What next? Automatic zipping pants so people don't forget to put their pecker away when they finish peeing? No thanks, I'll drill a hole and install a tire valve stem as a vent and replace the nozzle whenever I encounter one of those cans, it is a functionally superior solution. Or I can pick up a can next door in Canada because they're sensible enough to have not adopted the ridiculous US law.

How anyone could say that the gas can law is sensible with a straight face I truly cannot understand. What the law intended may in some "treat everyone like helpless children who cannot be trusted to do anything right" society be reasonable, the unintended consequence that it actually results in is an array of worthless products that are compliant with the law as written but do exactly the opposite of what the law intended. That is virtually the definition of a stupid law written by people with no understanding of the thing they were trying to legislate. I don't think anyone who has ever actually used one of those newer cans could possibly agree that they're an improvement.
I can tell you’ve neither read the law itself, nor did you carefully read anything I wrote. Nor have you given two seconds’ thought as to why the law was needed: regulations occur because lots of people don’t act responsibly. If they did, we wouldn’t need regulations. Manufacturers of gas cans shouldn’t have needed to be told to design the canisters such as to not leak, and to be made of materials the gas doesn’t permeate. Consumers shouldn’t have needed to be told to close them. Yet every garage or shed holding an old style gas can constantly reeked of gasoline, indicating ongoing vapor leakage.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #79 on: December 28, 2020, 10:55:50 am »
The whole premise of something being safe (coin cell, live mains, or whatever) because it can't be accessed without the use of a tool has become worthless in a modern world, where pretty well everyone has the tool bits, even the tamper proof ones!
In the Democratic People's European Union mains extension cords increasingly use rivets for that reason |O
Hooray for repairability and sustanability :-DD
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #80 on: December 28, 2020, 11:15:37 am »
The whole premise of something being safe (coin cell, live mains, or whatever) because it can't be accessed without the use of a tool has become worthless in a modern world, where pretty well everyone has the tool bits, even the tamper proof ones!
In the Democratic People's European Union mains extension cords increasingly use rivets for that reason |O
Hooray for repairability and sustanability :-DD
Or maybe it’s because rivets are cheaper and easier to insert than tamper proof screws.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #81 on: December 28, 2020, 11:28:38 am »
Hmm, possibly that too :-DD
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #82 on: December 28, 2020, 12:11:36 pm »
Quote
Dishwashers use far less water (and because of that, far less energy) than handwashing
out of curiosity how much water?my washing up takes about 6L of water,4 cold and 2l boiled in the kettle,time taken about the same  time as it takes the kettle to boil for  the after dinner coffee
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #83 on: December 28, 2020, 12:24:53 pm »
Quote
Dishwashers use far less water (and because of that, far less energy) than handwashing
out of curiosity how much water?my washing up takes about 6L of water,4 cold and 2l boiled in the kettle,time taken about the same  time as it takes the kettle to boil for  the after dinner coffee
Modern dishwashers use about 13L per load, including the rinse. A typical person uses around 100 liters to wash and rinse the same amount of dishes by hand, according to a study by the University of Bonn.

If you're actually washing and rinsing a dishwasher load's worth of dishes in 6L of water, then you are at the very fringes of the curve.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #84 on: December 28, 2020, 03:22:42 pm »
Quote
Dishwashers use far less water (and because of that, far less energy) than handwashing
out of curiosity how much water?my washing up takes about 6L of water,4 cold and 2l boiled in the kettle,time taken about the same  time as it takes the kettle to boil for  the after dinner coffee
Modern dishwashers use about 13L per load, including the rinse. A typical person uses around 100 liters to wash and rinse the same amount of dishes by hand, according to a study by the University of Bonn.

If you're actually washing and rinsing a dishwasher load's worth of dishes in 6L of water, then you are at the very fringes of the curve.

I place the first lot of things (usually cutlery), in the sink, partially fill with hot water, wash a batch, rinse them under the hot tap, & dry them with a teatowel.
The rinsing water from each lot goes straight back into the sink, not down the drain.

Each successive group of things, like glasses, cups, plates, & so on are done the same way.
A large wash does mean I will need to lose some water, so as to not overflow, but not a lot.

I don't like leaving detergent residue on dishes, so that is why I rinse them-----other people do not care, so leave that step out.

A small sink like mine will probably be filled with around 6.0 litres of water, so allowing for a bit of loss, I am probably looking at using around 10 litres max.
This also is used to wash down the sink area, the counter round it, & often the cooktop.

As we have a Solar HWS, the water heating cost is negligible.
There was a dishwasher installed in our kitchen when we bought this house, but we found it was an unending source of trouble, being out of service more than in service, & ditched it.

I can't work out how anyone uses 100 litres to do a handwash, unless they are slavishly imitating how a machine does the job.

Back in the day, when we lived in an area without mains power or water, Mum (or us kids) would wash up in a "washing up dish" about the same size as my sink.
The water was heated in a biggish kettle on a wood stove.
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #85 on: December 28, 2020, 03:31:59 pm »
Quote
I can't work out how anyone uses 100 litres to do a handwash
same here,i doubt i  even use that in a day.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #86 on: December 28, 2020, 04:01:31 pm »
Quote
I can't work out how anyone uses 100 litres to do a handwash
same here,i doubt i  even use that in a day.
In the old days I referred to, our well only gave brackish water--OK for the livestock, but no good for humans.
Our primary source of water was rainwater from one very large water tank, one a bit smaller, & one "100gallon" (approx460l) tank which we used as a "working source", topping it up as required, from the big tanks or, for a relatively short period at the end of Summer, by water hauled from a standpipe in the nearest small town in a "44gallon (Imp) /55Gallon (US)/200 litre" drum.

On one occasion, we tried taking the big "100gallon" tank to the standpipe, but the logistic problems made that unworkable.

I have " spelt out" the size of the drum we did use in all three systems of measures to give some sense of how much water "100 litres" really is------a whole lot!

It is just as well that those researchers at the Uni of Bonn have jobs as academics---------they would be unemployable as dishwashers!
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #87 on: December 28, 2020, 04:07:17 pm »
Quote
I can't work out how anyone uses 100 litres to do a handwash
same here,i doubt i  even use that in a day.
Do you not shower?

Quote
Dishwashers use far less water (and because of that, far less energy) than handwashing
out of curiosity how much water?my washing up takes about 6L of water,4 cold and 2l boiled in the kettle,time taken about the same  time as it takes the kettle to boil for  the after dinner coffee
Modern dishwashers use about 13L per load, including the rinse. A typical person uses around 100 liters to wash and rinse the same amount of dishes by hand, according to a study by the University of Bonn.

If you're actually washing and rinsing a dishwasher load's worth of dishes in 6L of water, then you are at the very fringes of the curve.

I place the first lot of things (usually cutlery), in the sink, partially fill with hot water, wash a batch, rinse them under the hot tap, & dry them with a teatowel.
The rinsing water from each lot goes straight back into the sink, not down the drain.

Each successive group of things, like glasses, cups, plates, & so on are done the same way.
A large wash does mean I will need to lose some water, so as to not overflow, but not a lot.

I don't like leaving detergent residue on dishes, so that is why I rinse them-----other people do not care, so leave that step out.

A small sink like mine will probably be filled with around 6.0 litres of water, so allowing for a bit of loss, I am probably looking at using around 10 litres max.
This also is used to wash down the sink area, the counter round it, & often the cooktop.

As we have a Solar HWS, the water heating cost is negligible.
There was a dishwasher installed in our kitchen when we bought this house, but we found it was an unending source of trouble, being out of service more than in service, & ditched it.

I can't work out how anyone uses 100 litres to do a handwash, unless they are slavishly imitating how a machine does the job.

Back in the day, when we lived in an area without mains power or water, Mum (or us kids) would wash up in a "washing up dish" about the same size as my sink.
The water was heated in a biggish kettle on a wood stove.
I'm definitely with you on rinsing all the detergent off!

I often use cold water to wash things which aren't greasy, such as coffee cups, cereal bowls and glasses. I find modern detergents work quite well, even with cold water. It does take a little longer to dry, but that's a non-issue, as it's just me, there's always room on the draining board. Using tea towels is very unhygienic. Hot water is for things caked in grease. I expect some people may think using cold water is less hygienic, than hot water, because they don't believe it kills germs, but the water would have to be scalding hot to do that and modern washing up liquid is a fairly good antiseptic.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #88 on: December 28, 2020, 04:14:50 pm »


Quote
Who washes dishes by hand? I'll occasionally wash something that way if I need it right away or if it's too big to fit well in the dishwasher but I don't know anybody who regularly does their dishes by hand
you do now,dont own,never had nor ever  want a dishwasher,total waste of energy, space and money
Dishwashers use far less water (and because of that, far less energy) than handwashing. I have no idea where some people get the idea that dishwashers waste energy, because the exact opposite is true.

That depends on how much washing up you have.

I live by myself so I generate perhaps two plates, a mug, a saucepan or frying pan and a few utensils a day. It takes little water and about 5 minutes tops to do the daily washing up. The dishwasher takes at least an hour.

The only time I use the dishwasher is to wash lab glassware since I may have 20 or more 500 ml bottles. But that's rare, too.

I could so easily live without a dishwasher. Indeed, I'd live without a clothes dryer except it's forbidden to air-dry clothes outside where I live.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #89 on: December 28, 2020, 04:22:16 pm »
A typical person uses around 100 liters to wash and rinse the same amount of dishes by hand, according to a study by the University of Bonn.

That's just FUD. Or people are so used to using dishwashers, they don't know how to do dishes by hand efficiently. I use about 10 liters. It's not difficult unless you are stupid.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #90 on: December 28, 2020, 04:44:10 pm »
People are notoriously stupid.
But then again, all those Science™ studies measuring things like the amount of water it takes to wash the dishes across a whole country makes you think that those scientist guys gotta have some clairvoyance powers ::)
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #91 on: December 28, 2020, 06:28:49 pm »
A typical person uses around 100 liters to wash and rinse the same amount of dishes by hand, according to a study by the University of Bonn.

That's just FUD. Or people are so used to using dishwashers, they don't know how to do dishes by hand efficiently. I use about 10 liters. It's not difficult unless you are stupid.
Not FUD. The study said the spread was huge: between 30 and 440L!!! o_O

But the upshot is, a dishwasher pretty much always uses less water, and because of that, less energy.

I also suspect that the people who say they use just a few L aren't comparing the same amount of dishes.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #92 on: December 28, 2020, 06:44:31 pm »
A typical person uses around 100 liters to wash and rinse the same amount of dishes by hand, according to a study by the University of Bonn.

That's just FUD. Or people are so used to using dishwashers, they don't know how to do dishes by hand efficiently. I use about 10 liters. It's not difficult unless you are stupid.
Not FUD. The study said the spread was huge: between 30 and 440L!!! o_O

But the upshot is, a dishwasher pretty much always uses less water, and because of that, less energy.

I also suspect that the people who say they use just a few L aren't comparing the same amount of dishes.
You didn't say how many dishes, or anything about the water temperature. I'm pretty sure I use less energy when washing cold, than any dishwasher and I still use less, even when I need to use hot water. I never fill the the sink. I wet the dishes, apply detergent to the brush, scrub and cold rinse. If a pan is very greasy, I put a small amount of hot water and detergent in it, leave it to soak, scrub to loosen the grease and rinse with cold water.
 


Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #94 on: December 28, 2020, 07:41:35 pm »
I can save more water by peeing in my garden instead of flushing a toilet...
 
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Offline themadhippy

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #95 on: December 28, 2020, 07:59:57 pm »
if its yellow let it mellow
if its brown flush it down
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #96 on: December 28, 2020, 08:27:07 pm »
Shielding a child all the time is not a good thing either.

On average, city kids exposed to more danger has more "street smart".  They are far more likely to be able to deal with danger and unknowns.

As a child in the city, I was pocket picked at least once and rob at knife point three times.  Of that three, twice I was very fearful of my life.  The third time which was the last time, I was as in control as they were.  True, they got the knives and got away scot-free with some money, but I got to keep what I wanted to keep.

It is common for youths to think they are immortal.  "It only happens to someone else" is a common thought, but too often they forgot: to someone else, you are someone else.

If you over-protected your child, you will spend the rest of your life worrying about the danger around them - simple ones that your wisdom and experience of age would help you avoid with ease.  I often wish that my kid had been robbed a time or two as long as there was no personal injury.  Now I am paying for that mistake of over-protecting while I observe my (now a young adult) kid's blissful ignorance of real danger.

Simple things that may hurt very very bad but wont kill or permanently damage a child, let them learn by mistake.  You get a more capable child as a result.

Frankly that wording "most laws are made for you" gives me the creeps. Big Brother knows best. Did you ever read the novel "1984"? It is frightening.

As one of our former President had said: "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."

Too many has been indoctrinated with blind trust in government.  While some politicians are good, but they are by far the minority.  The last politician I know of who retired (not defeated) after decades of service and went back into a meager civilian life was over a decade ago.  These days, politicians drastically increased their own net-worth while as politicians, and yet they keep on getting "elected" back in.  So, that "one generation" appears to be here, now.  Feels like December 1983 to me now.

EDIT:
Changed "was decades ago" to "was over a decade ago" in the last paragraph.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 08:30:15 pm by Rick Law »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #97 on: December 28, 2020, 10:00:03 pm »
https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/dishwashers/articles/dishwasher-vs-washing-by-hand

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1470-6431.2010.00973.x
I can see the point about wasting loads of water, whilst waiting for it to warm up, hence why I use cold.

I strongly disagree with not rinsing. Read the label on a detergent bottle and note the ingredients and safety warnings: it's not something you want to be eating. Fair enough, in small quantities it'll do no harm, but I use it very concentrated, with minimal water, so rinsing is mandatory, otherwise I'd taste it and what about other residues such as raw meat and blood? No way will I eat that! As far as waiting for the dishes to pile up, or using a bucket is concerned: that wouldn't save me any water, because I never fill the sink or use the plug. I just wet the dishes, so use the same amount of water, per dish, irrespective of the quantity.

I'm not bothered about saving water, because I live in an area with relatively high rainfall and drought is rare. Saving energy is more important. My energy bills are low. I have my central heating thermostat set to 15oC, when I'm up and 10oC, when I'm out/asleep. I normally take cold showers and wash my hands cold. I live on my own. I've realised it takes so long to run the water hot, by the time it's warm, my hands are already clean, so I just use cold and my skin is better for it too.

I'd definitely use more energy/water if I had a dishwasher. Modern dishwashers which try to save water are pretty crappy. My mum has one and she finds she has to soak the dishes before running it, otherwise it leaves a residue, so she probably uses more water than just doing them in the sink. It's worse because there's only two of them in the house, so the dishes piles up and the food dries hard, making it more difficult to wash. This is a classic example of regulation failure. Another is water saving toilets which require more than one flush and have a crappy siphon which ends up leaking, after a few years.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #98 on: December 28, 2020, 10:37:44 pm »
You didn't say how many dishes, or anything about the water temperature. I'm pretty sure I use less energy when washing cold, than any dishwasher and I still use less, even when I need to use hot water. I never fill the the sink. I wet the dishes, apply detergent to the brush, scrub and cold rinse. If a pan is very greasy, I put a small amount of hot water and detergent in it, leave it to soak, scrub to loosen the grease and rinse with cold water.

My Bosch dishwasher uses 6L of water and 1kWh of electricity to wash dishes, on the eco setting (50 celsius),  and about 10L of water and 1.4kWh of electricity on the intensive setting (70 celsius.)
With that it can wash 20+ plates/dishes/cups/mugs/etc plus all the utensils and I don't have to get my hands dirty.   Dishes come out perfectly clean every time.   Saves energy, water* and effort - why not use it?

*Even if you aren't concerned about water usage due to sufficient supply in your area, more water usage increases energy usage by the water supplier, who has to pass the bills on to someone.  It also requires more sewage treatment, which is pretty energy intensive itself.
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Coin cell safety improvement a world first in Australia
« Reply #99 on: December 28, 2020, 10:59:13 pm »
You didn't say how many dishes, or anything about the water temperature. I'm pretty sure I use less energy when washing cold, than any dishwasher and I still use less, even when I need to use hot water. I never fill the the sink. I wet the dishes, apply detergent to the brush, scrub and cold rinse. If a pan is very greasy, I put a small amount of hot water and detergent in it, leave it to soak, scrub to loosen the grease and rinse with cold water.

My Bosch dishwasher uses 6L of water and 1kWh of electricity to wash dishes, on the eco setting (50 celsius),  and about 10L of water and 1.4kWh of electricity on the intensive setting (70 celsius.)
With that it can wash 20+ plates/dishes/cups/mugs/etc plus all the utensils and I don't have to get my hands dirty.   Dishes come out perfectly clean every time.   Saves energy, water* and effort - why not use it?
Sounds good, but I don't have the space in my kitchen.

Quote
*Even if you aren't concerned about water usage due to sufficient supply in your area, more water usage increases energy usage by the water supplier, who has to pass the bills on to someone.  It also requires more sewage treatment, which is pretty energy intensive itself.
True, but water is still cheaper for me than electricity/gas so even if I use a little more water than that, I honestly don't know, since I don't measure, it's still cheaper doing it by hand with cold water. Even if we just consider the environment, not cost, suppose I use double the amount of water per dish than that machine. I doubt that adds up to an extra 1kWh used by the treatment works.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 11:02:23 pm by Zero999 »
 


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