Author Topic: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)  (Read 2663 times)

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Offline GlennSprigg

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Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« on: February 25, 2020, 12:54:57 pm »
I don't mind copping 'flak', again, but please be kind to old pensioners!!!   :)

My Missus & I got sick of using/buying cheap $30 inkjet printers.  I tried various cheap ReFill
options from overseas. Let's face it, they make NOTHING on the sale of new printers, and try
to make their money on 'NEW CARTRIDGES'. So, we try to circumvent that...  Up until now, we would
use the printer until empty of ink, and then BUY another for say $29, (a fraction of the cost for new
cartridges!), and keep at least ONE of the old 'printers' as a 'SCANNER'.

Now, for the 1st time, I purchased a new B&W & Color Laser Printer. So many quality Laser
printed pages, that would take us a few years to use up!! Ok, so lets look at re-usability.
'Brother' quote the likes of $120 to $140 for EACH colour drum/cartridge. However, on eBay, we can
not just get a 'refill' kit as per the various inkjet printers, but a complete new replacement Cartridge
for about $30. Now, I'm sorry, but I do not care about 'standard' parts. If it works, and our distant
future succeeds with an additional 2000 to 3000 pages on an originally $250 machine, then so be it !!!

NOW, all of a sudden, things we want/need every day, just happen! We are networked anyway, between
all devices, like PC's, Laptops, iPads & SmartPhones on our NBN router. Everything on any device is now
printable, as it all happens locally via the NBN/Router WiFi
PDF files, instructions, Airline bookings/tickets...

Mind you, I showed my missus recently that all you need is your phone at the airport to scan now...
Just wake me when we get there!!!   ???
 

Offline jfiresto

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2020, 01:22:29 pm »
I am long time laser printer fan and do not mind paying 90 dollars or euros for a manufacturer's toner cartridge if I will get many pages out of one. Kyocera claims 7000 pages per cartridge for the P2040dn black and white laser printer I recently got. That is about half the cost per page of the Okidata printer it replaced. I only replaced the Okidata, because after 20 years, the rubber pieces had hardened and were starting to misfeed the odd sheet from the 200-sheet paper tray.

You can see where a manufacturer makes money if you calculate the cost per page for their different models. I bought Kyocera's second least expensive, network printer because I do not print much per year. The toner for their least expensive model (it is different) costs twice as much per page and only makes sense if you plan to retire the printer before finishing off a full cartridge.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 01:26:03 pm by jfiresto »
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2020, 05:15:54 pm »
NOW, all of a sudden, things we want/need every day, just happen! We are networked anyway, between all devices, like PC's, Laptops, iPads & SmartPhones on our NBN router. Everything on any device is now printable, as it all happens locally via the NBN/Router WiFi PDF files, instructions, Airline bookings/tickets...

I must admit that I still get a kick out of the experience of having a photocopier at home. ;) 

One of the "dream machines" of my youth, when information still came on printed pages, and it was such a hassle to take a bike ride to the next "copy shop" to copy a book chapter or magazine article... We have had an inkjet printer + flatbed scanner combo for a decade now, but I am still pleased that this magic machine is sitting there right on my shelf. The recent upgrade to a laser printer with automatic document feeder helped to renew the enjoyment.  :)
 
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Online SilverSolder

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2020, 08:21:39 pm »
I've managed to go almost 100% paperless, even though I like printing.  I only print photographs / artwork / technical stuff (PCB artwork etc.) these days... 
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2020, 09:05:15 pm »
I got sick of inkjet printers about 12 years ago and bought a used color laser printer. Finally it was getting tired so I replaced it with a new much more compact HP color laserjet. I don't mind paying a few hundred bucks for a set of cartridges because a set of them lasts me years. It's far more expensive to buy $30 inkjet cartridges that dry up and clog after a few prints. Inkjet printers are nicer for photos but they're hopeless for someone who prints infrequently.

My printer has wifi but I've always used wired ethernet, I reserve wifi for laptops and mobile devices that actually need to be wireless, a wire offers far superior performance and better reliability.
 
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Online tooki

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2020, 09:08:10 pm »
I don't mind copping 'flak', again, but please be kind to old pensioners!!!   :)

My Missus & I got sick of using/buying cheap $30 inkjet printers.  I tried various cheap ReFill
options from overseas. Let's face it, they make NOTHING on the sale of new printers, and try
to make their money on 'NEW CARTRIDGES'. So, we try to circumvent that...  Up until now, we would
use the printer until empty of ink, and then BUY another for say $29, (a fraction of the cost for new
cartridges!), and keep at least ONE of the old 'printers' as a 'SCANNER'.

Now, for the 1st time, I purchased a new B&W & Color Laser Printer. So many quality Laser
printed pages, that would take us a few years to use up!! Ok, so lets look at re-usability.
'Brother' quote the likes of $120 to $140 for EACH colour drum/cartridge. However, on eBay, we can
not just get a 'refill' kit as per the various inkjet printers, but a complete new replacement Cartridge
for about $30. Now, I'm sorry, but I do not care about 'standard' parts. If it works, and our distant
future succeeds with an additional 2000 to 3000 pages on an originally $250 machine, then so be it !!!
Your original mistake was buying $30 printers. That’s a way more expensive way of buying ink than spending $200 on a printer and then having $12 (original!) cartridges.

Anyhow, nowadays, small laser printers use the old inkjet model, charging nothing for the printer and a fortune for toner that lasts just 1000 pages.

Meanwhile, for the past 5 years or so, the printers with the lowest page costs have been... inkjets. (Not all inkjets. Just that the cheapest per page inkjets actually have lower page costs than the cheapest page cost lasers.)

And more recently still, most of the brands have started selling inkjets that come filled with gigantic ink tanks that last for 5000-7000 pages before needing a refill. So you spend maybe $300 on the machine and don’t need to buy ink for years, and then it’s cheap, too.
 
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Offline angrybird

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2020, 07:11:33 pm »
Look at the printer with WireShark or a good network router...  These networked printers are sending massive data to numerous IP's as you use them.  I suspect this data includes information about any other wifi devices it spots as well as other devices on your network.  I had an HP MFP series connected to the internet and it sent more than 500MB in a month, and with limited use.  Data went to IP's belonging to facebook, google, twitter, etc as well as some unidentified IP's in Asia region.

I won't connect printers to the internet anymore.  There is no privacy laws to keep them from doing this as long as they claim the data is "anonymized", though it can be used to trace directly to you with easy data analysis.
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2020, 01:44:48 am »
I love laser printers, but in our house I couldn't get the missus to agree on one. In this case, we got the $150 office inkjet printer (HP Officejet Pro 8600) that has been in use for a number of years, is very frugal and the ink does not dry with our sparse printing output. When this one dies, I may either try the color laser again or perhaps get one of these Epson Ecotank printers, which are refillable inkjets.
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Offline angrybird

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2020, 02:50:29 am »
I love laser printers, but in our house I couldn't get the missus to agree on one. In this case, we got the $150 office inkjet printer (HP Officejet Pro 8600) that has been in use for a number of years, is very frugal and the ink does not dry with our sparse printing output. When this one dies, I may either try the color laser again or perhaps get one of these Epson Ecotank printers, which are refillable inkjets.

Color lasers just aren't economical and are usually too bulky for home use.  However if you start a small business, you are usually allowed to claim a loss X out of Y years and can write off your consumables like cartridges.

For mass printing of black and white documents, there are a lot of good deals for used laserjets that have good availability of aftermarket toner cartridges that are affordable and decent quality.  For this I prefer the P20xx series printers because you can get them with ethernet and duplexing (-dn option), they can do more than 20 pages per minute, and you usually find people selling them due to startup errors which require baking the PCB to melt the dentrites that have migrated between pins on the BGA chip.  In the long run, this does prove annoying and a bit silly though (Darn!  Time to throw the printer PCB in the oven again!)
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Offline james_s

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2020, 05:15:30 am »
Color lasers just aren't economical and are usually too bulky for home use.  However if you start a small business, you are usually allowed to claim a loss X out of Y years and can write off your consumables like cartridges.


My HP M254dw color laserjet is about the size of a breadbox, it's smaller than those stupid all in one printer/scanner units that are all the rage and was under $300 when I bought it. A set of OEM cartridges is kinda spendy but aftermarket is available and so far I'm still on the set that came with it. Back when I had inkjets I spent a lot more than $300 on cartridges that dried up and clogged after only a few prints. I often go weeks at a time without printing and inkjets really don't like to sit, at least not the ones I've had.

Another thing I really like about the laser is that the prints don't smear if they get damp.
 

Offline jfiresto

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2020, 09:04:03 am »
The roughly 5 µm toner particles (from a 1200 dpi laser printer) also make good targets for testing stereo microscopes.
 

Offline shakalnokturn

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2020, 10:59:40 am »
I gave up on playing with liquid ink printers 12-15 years ago, before that colour lasers weren't being thrown away too often so it kind of made sense to get covered in ink for the colour prints.

I liked the prints the Tektronix Phaser produced in its day, I've never owned one so I'm not aware of the clogging problems they may have.

I've been a black laser printer user for about 20 years now, I was (still am) a great fan of the LaserJet 4 and 5 with VFD display.
In 20 years IIRC I've only ever bought two new toner cartridges.
My most recent find is a colour HP MFC, I may have to buy a black cartridge for that as the drum is way past its best.

Colour laser printing is cheap when you don't have to buy anything, sometimes the printers are thrown-away with paper in the tray  :-+
 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2020, 12:39:50 pm »

I use both inkjet and laser printers, depending on what I'm doing.  I like printing large format photos, laser just isn't the right solution for that.  Printing masks for PCB lithography is more precise on inkjet (and can be made larger format).  Toner transfer works only on laser...
 

Offline angrybird

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2020, 01:55:23 pm »
Color lasers just aren't economical and are usually too bulky for home use.  However if you start a small business, you are usually allowed to claim a loss X out of Y years and can write off your consumables like cartridges.


My HP M254dw color laserjet is about the size of a breadbox, it's smaller than those stupid all in one printer/scanner units that are all the rage and was under $300 when I bought it. A set of OEM cartridges is kinda spendy but aftermarket is available and so far I'm still on the set that came with it. Back when I had inkjets I spent a lot more than $300 on cartridges that dried up and clogged after only a few prints. I often go weeks at a time without printing and inkjets really don't like to sit, at least not the ones I've had.

Another thing I really like about the laser is that the prints don't smear if they get damp.


That is pretty small but I should have mentioned what my personal idea of "small" is.  Do you remember the Canon BJ-200?   :-DD
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Online RoadRunner

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2020, 05:07:26 pm »
I own one those tank inkjet printer , they are quite economical, small and Easy to refill.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2020, 07:57:59 pm »
They're economical if you print a lot. If you're like me and frequently go a month or more between printing they will still clog up and waste a ton of ink on cleaning cycles.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2020, 08:13:20 pm »
For mass printing of black and white documents,
Oh yeah. If I only printed B&W or dithered I would have kept my precious HP Laserjet 4100DTN - sold it for a song due to its large footprint.

My HP M254dw color laserjet is about the size of a breadbox, it's smaller than those stupid all in one printer/scanner units that are all the rage and was under $300 when I bought it.
Thanks for the information about the smaller size color laserjet. Unfortunately we use the scanner quite heavily (more than the printer) and therefore can't live without a multifunctional. The 8600 is about the height of a Tektronix TDS7104 and fits perfectly on top of an Ikea Besta bookshelf unit we have.

They're economical if you print a lot. If you're like me and frequently go a month or more between printing they will still clog up and waste a ton of ink on cleaning cycles.
Fortunately for us the 8600 really keeps unclogged over the weeks between printouts.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2020, 08:14:53 pm by rsjsouza »
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2020, 09:24:04 pm »
I own one those tank inkjet printer , they are quite economical, small and Easy to refill.

I own one too (Epson EcoTank). It was nice until it started to spit large drops of ink on the paper unprompted. And now it turns out that there is no accepted way to mail it back for warranty repair, because there is no way to either drain or seal the ink system: "Ensure that the printer is not tipped or tilted during transport."  :clap:

Thank you very much, Epson. That was my first and last "EcoTank", and probably my last Epson product for a long time. It was quite expensive too -- with these printers, the ink is affordable, but you pay real money for the printer. 500 Euros for a photo-quality ET-7000...

Anybody wants to buy a complete set of unopened, original ink bottles? The printer did not even get through the first of the two included sets.  :rant:
 

Online Bud

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2020, 10:00:04 pm »
I am curious why in this era of obsession with black computer equipment if is difficult to find a black printer.
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Offline olkipukki

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2020, 10:00:17 pm »
Are people still using ink printers?  :o

The laser (colour) printers are cheap these days (yes, need take into account some manufacturer promotions, reseller discounts, vouchers etc.) and at the time you need to replace cartridges - literally through away it and buy new one  >:D


P.S.

Apple users, please do not forget to check AirPrint compatibility  :-DMM

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201311

 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2020, 01:12:55 am »
Are people still using ink printers?  :o
[...]

Inkjet is still by far the best for photographic prints...
 
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Online tooki

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2020, 11:09:05 am »
I am curious why in this era of obsession with black computer equipment if is difficult to find a black printer.
But is it, really?? I think we actually have a pretty good selection of them. I mean, look at the 90s, when every printer, without exception, was gray...

Nearly all of Canon's inkjets are black (some come in additional colors). Almost all Epson inkjets are, too.

HP's inkjets are mostly black, and their lasers are mostly half-black, half-gray. Brother is mostly black, even for laser.

Ultimately I think it's more by market: printers for home/SOHO use tend to be black, while ones targeted at larger offices are more likely to be gray. The closer you get to an enterprise printer, the more likely it is to be gray. And inkjets seem more likely to be black than lasers. But exceptions exist in every dimension.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2020, 12:25:10 pm »
Look at the printer with WireShark or a good network router...  These networked printers are sending massive data to numerous IP's as you use them.  I suspect this data includes information about any other wifi devices it spots as well as other devices on your network.  I had an HP MFP series connected to the internet and it sent more than 500MB in a month, and with limited use.  Data went to IP's belonging to facebook, google, twitter, etc as well as some unidentified IP's in Asia region.

I won't connect printers to the internet anymore.  There is no privacy laws to keep them from doing this as long as they claim the data is "anonymized", though it can be used to trace directly to you with easy data analysis.

Thanks to everyone for all for your replies!  However, to 'angrybird'...
I'm generally wary of what is connected to my WIFI, but my Brother HL-L3230CDW doesn't seem to
do anything 'behind the scenes'.  I utilize 'specialized' software that monitors ALL communications on
my router by any device/user, beyond the 'normal' monitoring people know of/use. There is no data
usage other than the expected handshaking to my other devices, and zero in sleep mode.

And yea, to others in general...  we wouldn't use but a fraction of what some people might in an office
or business environment, and there's no worries about 'clogged' inkjets between use, nor with spending
the fraction of the normal cost of 'propitiatory' toner cartridges when/if we need them after years!!

Mind you, I never thought about the claims of 'better' Photos with an Inkjet!!  I suppose it must also
depend on the specialized glossy/mat/sheen papers used???  Even with the past's Inkjets, it always
seemed cheaper/better to take a memory-stick to 'Office-Works' etc, & pay mere CENTS for a print!!
However, aren't they just using Laser Printers anyway??? (All-be-it a high quality one?)
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2020, 03:45:16 pm »
O used to have am Epson Photo 820 that had quite impressive photo printing. All other problems apart (clogged heads, tiny cartridges), the cost per 4x6 photo was prohibitive but immensely better than the typical drugstore printing service. However, the more professional services such as shutterfly were more expensive but, in the end, much more cost effective (quality was much better than the drugstore, but worse than the printer).

I haven't had a photo printer in years due to the cost.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Lord of nothing

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2020, 05:36:37 pm »
Can some one PLEASE fix the horrible formation of the Text:
Made in Japan, destroyed in Sulz im Wienerwald.
 
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Online tooki

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #25 on: February 29, 2020, 09:18:17 pm »
Can some one PLEASE fix the horrible formation of the Text:
That user always puts in unnecessary line breaks. I’ve mentioned it to him a few times but it’s fallen on deaf ears.
 
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Online tooki

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #26 on: February 29, 2020, 09:31:50 pm »
Look at the printer with WireShark or a good network router...  These networked printers are sending massive data to numerous IP's as you use them.  I suspect this data includes information about any other wifi devices it spots as well as other devices on your network.  I had an HP MFP series connected to the internet and it sent more than 500MB in a month, and with limited use.  Data went to IP's belonging to facebook, google, twitter, etc as well as some unidentified IP's in Asia region.

I won't connect printers to the internet anymore.  There is no privacy laws to keep them from doing this as long as they claim the data is "anonymized", though it can be used to trace directly to you with easy data analysis.

Thanks to everyone for all for your replies!  However, to 'angrybird'...
I'm generally wary of what is connected to my WIFI, but my Brother HL-L3230CDW doesn't seem to
do anything 'behind the scenes'.  I utilize 'specialized' software that monitors ALL communications on
my router by any device/user, beyond the 'normal' monitoring people know of/use. There is no data
usage other than the expected handshaking to my other devices, and zero in sleep mode.

And yea, to others in general...  we wouldn't use but a fraction of what some people might in an office
or business environment, and there's no worries about 'clogged' inkjets between use, nor with spending
the fraction of the normal cost of 'propitiatory' toner cartridges when/if we need them after years!!

Mind you, I never thought about the claims of 'better' Photos with an Inkjet!!  I suppose it must also
depend on the specialized glossy/mat/sheen papers used???  Even with the past's Inkjets, it always
seemed cheaper/better to take a memory-stick to 'Office-Works' etc, & pay mere CENTS for a print!!
However, aren't they just using Laser Printers anyway??? (All-be-it a high quality one?)
Quality photo printing on ANY type of printer is reliant on using high quality materials, both the papers and the inks. (They need to be not only high quality, but also correctly matched. Not all papers work well with all inks, and vice versa, which is why every printer manufacturer makes and recommends photo papers for their printers.)

Laser isn’t optimal for photos, even today, since it uses comparatively coarse dots and only the 4 basic colors of toner. Photo books use laser printing, but it looks like a printed magazine, and the gloss is sometimes weird. Inkjet not only allows for finer dots at more arbitrary locations, and in many cases allowing for multiple dot sizes. But above all, often uses additional ink colors to achieve better smoothness. Some printers have used 11 different inks, with various shades of cyan, magenta, and gray, and sometimes added red, green, or blue, in addition to the standard CMYK. And it’s comparatively easy to scale up an inkjet mechanism from letter size up to paper 6 feet wide. This is why inkjet has become THE standard for art prints, since you can get extraordinary detail and quality, yet still do it on a large print. (There are even bigger inkjets that can print banners and ads 12 feet wide, but at lower resolution since those things aren’t looked at from so close.)

The in-store printers are dye sublimation, which produces continuous-tone prints that have the same smoothness as traditional silver halide prints.

P.S. Lord of Nothing is absolutely correct. PLEASE stop inserting manual line breaks. They are not necessary in any way, and they destroy the layout when viewing on a phone.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2020, 12:20:52 pm »
To "Lord of Nothing"  &  "tooki"  (and who ever else...).
The line above, for example, & this one, is short!, so I hit ENTER.
I'm not trying to piss anyone off deliberately, and I guess I (wrongfully) assume that the VAST majority of peoples screens these days are at least 1024 wide now, (usually 'much' more!), although I admit that I did not consider the likes of Mobile-Phones...  I just personally dislike long continuous lines like this, where even my low-res laptop is 1366 wide, almost cramming Paragraphs into one line!!   ;D

I do often think about this, though...
Say I had a list like this, below, hitting ENTER after each one...
 1:  Theory about the Universe and Everything.
 2:  I'm getting old, but don't bury me yet, please!
 3:  I woke up on the right side of the ground this morning!
 4:  This line is longer, but I don't think about counting how many letters I've typed now before an auto line-wrap?
      (On YOUR screen... not mine!!)

Did item '4' above word-wrap???  For you, I wouldn't know. Sorry.
I just 'try' to keep things/text in neat Blocks. It's not my desire to offend...   :phew:
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 12:34:35 pm by GlennSprigg »
 

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2020, 01:00:43 pm »
To "Lord of Nothing"  &  "tooki"  (and who ever else...).
The line above, for example, & this one, is short!, so I hit ENTER.
I'm not trying to piss anyone off deliberately, and I guess I (wrongfully) assume that the VAST majority of peoples screens these days are at least 1024 wide now, (usually 'much' more!), although I admit that I did not consider the likes of Mobile-Phones...  I just personally dislike long continuous lines like this, where even my low-res laptop is 1366 wide, almost cramming Paragraphs into one line!!   ;D

I do often think about this, though...
Say I had a list like this, below, hitting ENTER after each one...
 1:  Theory about the Universe and Everything.
 2:  I'm getting old, but don't bury me yet, please!
 3:  I woke up on the right side of the ground this morning!
 4:  This line is longer, but I don't think about counting how many letters I've typed now before an auto line-wrap?
      (On YOUR screen... not mine!!)

Did item '4' above word-wrap???  For you, I wouldn't know. Sorry.
I just 'try' to keep things/text in neat Blocks. It's not my desire to offend...   :phew:

If you are reading text on a phone,  rotating it 90 degrees to landscape view is often a better overall experience.
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2020, 01:20:17 pm »
To "Lord of Nothing"  &  "tooki"  (and who ever else...).
The line above, for example, & this one, is short!, so I hit ENTER.
[...]
I just personally dislike long continuous lines like this, where even my low-res laptop is 1366 wide, almost cramming Paragraphs into one line!!   ;D

Say I had a list like this, below, hitting ENTER after each one...
 1:  Theory about the Universe and Everything.
 2:  I'm getting old, but don't bury me yet, please!
[...]

Hi Glenn,

Regarding general formatting, my advice would be: Splitting a text into meaningful paragraphs is fine, of course. Hit Enter twice to start a new paragraph. But trying to manually end lines within a paragraph is a bad idea.

Yes, pretty much everyone has at least 1024 pixels per line on their displays today. But some of these displays nevertheless show a limited number of words per line, to keep the words readable. This is the case for small mobile devices, and even for large desktop monitors operated at large text sizes, for those of us with impaired vision.

Regarding the topic of lists: That's what the "Insert Ordered List" button in the forum's text editor is for! It inserts a template for a numbered list. It will be formatted in a way to ensure optimum line breaks for every display and browser when readers view it later -- similar to how the browser breaks the lines in a regular paragraph, depending on the available space. There is also an "Insert Unordered List" button, for lists with bullet points.
 
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Offline rdl

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2020, 07:58:21 pm »
My display is 1920x1080, but I also use a 27" monitor which sits on a normal size desk. If the browser was using the full screen I'd be constantly turning my head right and left to read each line. That gets uncomfortable after a while, so instead the browser is only around 60-70% of full width. With all the empty space most pages insert this ends up appearing about the same as a normal sized hardback book. Inserting unnecessary line breaks causes many lines to end abruptly in the middle of the page.
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2020, 08:30:16 pm »
@GlennSprigg, just to give some illustration regarding the manual line breaks delimiting continuous text.

This is how your last post is shown on a 1280x720 screen  :-+
943030-0

This is how your first post is shown on the same screen above :(
943026-1

This is how your first post is shown in a Galaxy S9 cellphone on its 2990x1440 screen :--
943040-2

That is how your last post is shown in the same screen above.  :-+
943036-3
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 08:34:28 pm by rsjsouza »
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Offline james_s

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2020, 06:31:55 am »
The thing that jumps out at me is that a 2990x1440 is displaying maybe half the information than can reasonably be fit on a paltry 640x480 display. The low information density trend drives me nuts, modern UI design reminds me of Duplo blocks for kiddies, resolutions get higher so they make UI elements bigger. What's the point of such a high resolution display if not to fit a lot of content on it at once?
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2020, 10:49:39 am »
To "Lord of Nothing"  &  "tooki"  (and who ever else...).
The line above, for example, & this one, is short!, so I hit ENTER.
I'm not trying to piss anyone off deliberately, and I guess I (wrongfully) assume that the VAST majority of peoples screens these days are at least 1024 wide now, (usually 'much' more!), although I admit that I did not consider the likes of Mobile-Phones...  I just personally dislike long continuous lines like this, where even my low-res laptop is 1366 wide, almost cramming Paragraphs into one line!!   ;D
Add my name to the annoyed list.

If long lines bother you, resize your browser window or increase the zoom setting.

Adding new lines might make it look good to you, on your display, but you don't know what resolution/font setting other people use, which is likely to mess it up.

If you refuse to change, you risk being put on many ignore lists.
 
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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2020, 12:41:24 pm »
The thing that jumps out at me is that a 2990x1440 is displaying maybe half the information than can reasonably be fit on a paltry 640x480 display. The low information density trend drives me nuts, modern UI design reminds me of Duplo blocks for kiddies, resolutions get higher so they make UI elements bigger. What's the point of such a high resolution display if not to fit a lot of content on it at once?

eBay is a good example.  On my 1920x1200 display here,  I can see exactly 3 listings when the browser is maximized.   In the old days, you would see probably a dozen listings on a much lower resolution monitor...   but the "white pixel supremacist" designers seem to have a real phobia about using pixels that have any colour other than white...
 
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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2020, 04:56:18 pm »
I completely agree with everyone who hates these modern “airy” layouts.

I’ve never understood people who get big displays and then just run everything maximized, with huge margins, especially once we went widescreen. (And it’s those people who are responsible for many such websites, since designers don’t want their sites to be “ugly” on such widescreen displays.) I run a windowed OS because of being able to... drumroll... have windows!* Running full-screen negates this!

The only things I EVER use full screen for are video playback, games, and flipping through photos.

*I find it particularly perplexing that Windows is such a maximized-focused GUI. Like... you’re called Windows, why do you not encourage people to actually use windows, and not full screen or tiled apps?!?
 

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2020, 07:02:30 pm »

The problem is that many "ordinary" computer users get lost if there are too many windows open...  or too much information on the display for them to take in.   So Microsoft (and others) have the issue of needing to cater to the lowest common denominator...   

Sadly, what seems to be happening, is that "skilled users" are now being ignored...
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2020, 01:33:13 am »
The thing that jumps out at me is that a 2990x1440 is displaying maybe half the information than can reasonably be fit on a paltry 640x480 display. The low information density trend drives me nuts, modern UI design reminds me of Duplo blocks for kiddies, resolutions get higher so they make UI elements bigger. What's the point of such a high resolution display if not to fit a lot of content on it at once?
I agree that the number of pixels is quite wasted with such little amount of information, but I also see the issue from another angle.

The cellphone screen is simply too small - cramming more pixels there will forcefully have some sort of redundancy, given that you need to cater to both the eye (high resolution) and the finger (a ridiculously low resolution). Add aging to the mix and you get clashing requirements that should have been solved with an appropriate scaling/zoom natively integrated into the oS (and not by every developer such as the browsers, for example).

One additional aspect is that the extra pixels per character bring better readability (as well as the use of greyscale/RGB subpixel). Coming from a long tradition of reading books in palmtops and smartphones, I can tell my eyes feel quite comfortable with the newer screens. Sure, age does not help and I now have difficulty with the smaller fonts.

In time: I also hate the plastered and toy-like appearance of modern OSes and GUIs (I had a rant somewhere in EEV about one of the latest updates to the Android of my Samsung Galaxy S9, but I can't seem to find it).
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2020, 01:48:31 am »
you’re called Windows, why do you not encourage people to actually use windows, and not full screen or tiled apps?!?

It is simple. Because their CEO, whose name i can't pronounce, likes it that way personally.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 
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Offline rdl

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2020, 02:16:32 am »
In the 90's a 640x480 display would typically be on a 14" screen. Those same pixels today on a 2990x1440 display would need a 65" screen. A bit too big for the average desk. Extra pixels have to be used just to make things look good and text readable, so I don't think a proportional increase of information density is possible, but it could be much better than it is.

Many game companies have failed miserably at providing some kind of text scaling for high resolution screens resulting in information that's all but unreadable if you play on a TV. Web and OS designers seem to be at the other end of the spectrum, exaggerating the size of elements far too much. Youtube is an example.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2020, 06:13:24 pm »
In the 90's a 640x480 display would typically be on a 14" screen. Those same pixels today on a 2990x1440 display would need a 65" screen. A bit too big for the average desk. Extra pixels have to be used just to make things look good and text readable, so I don't think a proportional increase of information density is possible, but it could be much better than it is.

Many game companies have failed miserably at providing some kind of text scaling for high resolution screens resulting in information that's all but unreadable if you play on a TV. Web and OS designers seem to be at the other end of the spectrum, exaggerating the size of elements far too much. Youtube is an example.

I have no difficulty reading small text on a high resolution screen. I was running 800x600 on a 14" monitor, later 1024x768 on a 15", then I got a 17" and was initially 1280x1024 and later a better one that could do 1600x1200. For those with less acute vision it would be nice to be able to zoom in, or just use a lower resolution display in the first place. I've always liked having very high information density though and am endlessly annoyed by the current trends. There's no point in having all those pixels if you're not going to make use of them.

Many years ago when we used one of the earlier messenger apps to communicate at work I could keep it down in a little window in the corner of a 1280x1024 display and still have space to have a spreadsheet open and some notes. In more recent years the messaging apps got bigger and bigger and now with Slack I have it as narrow as it will go on whatever crazy resolution my employer issued Macbook Pro is and it still consumes probably 1/5th of the display. It should be half that size or less.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 06:15:08 pm by james_s »
 
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Offline daveyk

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2020, 06:32:06 pm »
"My Missus & I got sick of using/buying cheap $30 inkjet printers."

Not laser, but I would add my 2 cents.  I purchased two Epson ET-3750 EcoTank Printers.  One for upstairs and one for my small business.  The one for my business has printed through two ink refills in less than a year.  That is a huge amount of printing, a lot of it in High Quality double-sided mode.  It is about $300-$350 (I forget), but the ink is dirt cheap.  You refill the ink tanks from large bottle of ink.  In high quality mode, it is a bit slow, but the printing is probably about as good as a laserjet, not as nice as a wax, sublimation printer, but I am very happy them.

I am now interested in a laserjet printer, probably monochrome is fine.  I primarily want it for printing circuit board PCB transfers, but I am thinking I may get a color one that can do double-sides for use in the business too.  Toner cartridges cost is the main reason I didn't get a laser printer.  It seems you found one with inexpensive cartridges on ebay for your printer.  I have to read through the rest of the messages and see if you mentioned the model of the printer you choose. 

Is there a good color wax printer out there like the Xerox we had a work?  I forget the model but it had 4 or 5 WAX cubes instead of a toner cartridge.  It had the best printout I have ever seen in a color printer and it was as fast as a laser.  It did need services a couple times a year, but it was used hard, probably printing 200-500 pages a day.  I would love one of those, or similar, for here at home. LOL, I can only dream.  I wonder if WAX printers are okay for PCB transfer paper?  I would highly doubt it.

Dave
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2020, 06:46:50 pm »
Is there a good color wax printer out there like the Xerox we had a work?  I forget the model but it had 4 or 5 WAX cubes instead of a toner cartridge.  It had the best printout I have ever seen in a color printer and it was as fast as a laser.
I vaguely remember those. People did love them but I haven't heard of one in a very long time.

Quote
I am now interested in a laserjet printer, probably monochrome is fine.
Our setup here in the home lab is a monochrome laser and a color inkjet. We generate far more monochrome output than we do color, so the advantages of a laser printer (lower cost per page, no smearing, better tolerance of various media types, etc.) make good sense.

The reason this thread caught my eye is that we just replaced our LaserJet 1200 after 20+ years of flawless performance. The rule of thumb for SOHO laser mechanisms is they are designed to yield 12-15K pages over their lifetime. I printed out a status page on the 1200 just before its mechanism literally disintegrated, and we were over 48K pages! We definitely got our money's worth out of that printer.

After copious research, we replaced it with a Canon LBP226dw. For under $300 delivered it is easily 2-3X faster than the 1200, does duplex printing which will slash our paper consumption, includes Ethernet (no more dependence upon a specific host PC so everyone else can access the printer!), etc. It's better in every way. Longevity remains to be seen but as I think we paid about $1K for the 1200 we're already 1/3rd the price. The toner cartridges are readily available at every big box office supply store plus all the online shippers, so no problem with consumables.

Meanwhile the USB-connected ink jet continues to crank along when we need color images. Having one of each type of printer is really the best answer for our situation.
 

Offline daveyk

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2020, 06:48:52 pm »
"My HP M254dw color laserjet is about the size of a breadbox, it's smalle"

About $320 on Amazon.  A full set of high yield cartridges is $700!

I just don't know what the correct decision is.

 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2020, 06:53:53 pm »
"My HP M254dw color laserjet is about the size of a breadbox, it's smalle"

About $320 on Amazon.  A full set of high yield cartridges is $700!
I just don't know what the correct decision is.

Maybe reading and quoting less selectively can help with your decision:  :P

My HP M254dw color laserjet is about the size of a breadbox, it's smaller than those stupid all in one printer/scanner units that are all the rage and was under $300 when I bought it. A set of OEM cartridges is kinda spendy but aftermarket is available and so far I'm still on the set that came with it.
 

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2020, 08:24:06 pm »
"My Missus & I got sick of using/buying cheap $30 inkjet printers."

Not laser, but I would add my 2 cents.  I purchased two Epson ET-3750 EcoTank Printers.  One for upstairs and one for my small business.  The one for my business has printed through two ink refills in less than a year.  That is a huge amount of printing, a lot of it in High Quality double-sided mode.  It is about $300-$350 (I forget), but the ink is dirt cheap.  You refill the ink tanks from large bottle of ink.  In high quality mode, it is a bit slow, but the printing is probably about as good as a laserjet, not as nice as a wax, sublimation printer, but I am very happy them.

I am now interested in a laserjet printer, probably monochrome is fine.  I primarily want it for printing circuit board PCB transfers, but I am thinking I may get a color one that can do double-sides for use in the business too.  Toner cartridges cost is the main reason I didn't get a laser printer.  It seems you found one with inexpensive cartridges on ebay for your printer.  I have to read through the rest of the messages and see if you mentioned the model of the printer you choose. 

Is there a good color wax printer out there like the Xerox we had a work?  I forget the model but it had 4 or 5 WAX cubes instead of a toner cartridge.  It had the best printout I have ever seen in a color printer and it was as fast as a laser.  It did need services a couple times a year, but it was used hard, probably printing 200-500 pages a day.  I would love one of those, or similar, for here at home. LOL, I can only dream.  I wonder if WAX printers are okay for PCB transfer paper?  I would highly doubt it.
I think your printer knowledge is kinda outdated.

The wax inkjets (inkjets is what they were, after all!) were never the best print quality. What they had was awesome speed and great economy provided they were never switched off. (Priming the system after powering up consumed enormous amounts of wax, more than 10% of a refill per warmup cycle, making them exclusively suitable for fairly high-volume office operations — they were totally unsuitable for home use). Anyway, their print quality was matched or exceeded by aqueous inkjet 20 years ago, and their speed matched by even cheap lasers 15 years ago, so Xerox stopped making them a few years ago. (I bet they would have worked very well for PCB transfers, though!!!)

Dye sublimation printers only survive as dedicated printers for photo printing, mostly for in-store kiosks and little mini home photo printers. In their previous domains of photography and prepress proofing, dye sub printers have been completely replaced by aqueous inkjet and color laser.


Whether you go for inkjet or laser, the best advice I can give you is to not go cheap on the printer itself. The cheaper the machine, the more expensive the consumables. There is no meaningful difference in print cost between laser and inkjet per se: it depends entirely on the model. (As I've explained in other threads, cheap lasers have completely moved to the razor-and-blades model, as cheap inkjets have always done. Meanwhile, for B&W office printers and things like mass mailing printers for utilities, inkjet now has the lowest page costs.) Inkjet will ultimately give the best print quality for photos, while laser has the advantage of having no ink to dry up, so much better for sporadic use.
 

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2020, 12:55:26 am »
"My Missus & I got sick of using/buying cheap $30 inkjet printers."

Not laser, but I would add my 2 cents.  I purchased two Epson ET-3750 EcoTank Printers.  One for upstairs and one for my small business.  The one for my business has printed through two ink refills in less than a year.  That is a huge amount of printing, a lot of it in High Quality double-sided mode.  It is about $300-$350 (I forget), but the ink is dirt cheap.  You refill the ink tanks from large bottle of ink.  In high quality mode, it is a bit slow, but the printing is probably about as good as a laserjet, not as nice as a wax, sublimation printer, but I am very happy them.

I am now interested in a laserjet printer, probably monochrome is fine.  I primarily want it for printing circuit board PCB transfers, but I am thinking I may get a color one that can do double-sides for use in the business too.  Toner cartridges cost is the main reason I didn't get a laser printer.  It seems you found one with inexpensive cartridges on ebay for your printer.  I have to read through the rest of the messages and see if you mentioned the model of the printer you choose. 

Is there a good color wax printer out there like the Xerox we had a work?  I forget the model but it had 4 or 5 WAX cubes instead of a toner cartridge.  It had the best printout I have ever seen in a color printer and it was as fast as a laser.  It did need services a couple times a year, but it was used hard, probably printing 200-500 pages a day.  I would love one of those, or similar, for here at home. LOL, I can only dream.  I wonder if WAX printers are okay for PCB transfer paper?  I would highly doubt it.

Dave

Keep in mind also that color laser is not good for PCB transfer projects - the "ink" is not the right type.  It needs to be monochrome, and there are some brands of monochrome printers (and aftermarket toner) that won't work...   do your homework before buying something for PCB work.


 

Offline jfiresto

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2020, 07:35:16 pm »
... After copious research, we replaced it with a Canon LBP226dw. For under $300 delivered it is easily 2-3X faster than the 1200, does duplex printing which will slash our paper consumption, includes Ethernet (no more dependence upon a specific host PC so everyone else can access the printer!), etc. It's better in every way. Longevity remains to be seen....

Longevity may prove to be the deciding factor. The P2040dw is a similar model from Kyocera if you ever need another brand to try. I will look at the Canon if my P2040dn (a dw without WiFi) does not last.
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2020, 11:33:22 pm »
Longevity may prove to be the deciding factor.
Agreed, and it will be hard to match the 1200's 48K page count. Back in their heyday, HP bought the laser mechanisms straight from Canon and built their printers around them (I interviewed at the HP printer division in Boise and learned many interesting things!). If the 1200 is any indication, I'm hopeful that same Canon longevity is still in the new printer!  :)
 

Offline jfiresto

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2020, 09:49:39 am »
I am pretty sure my first laserprinter, from QMS, used a Canon engine.

On paper, the Kyocera P2040dn/dw is meant for a serious amount of use, with a maximum 50 000 pages per month duty cycle, and drum+wear items replacement every 100 000 pages. Extending the warranty from 1 to 3 years, roughly doubles the price of the printer. Assuming their customers average 25 000 pages a month, that suggests a product design life of perhaps half a million pages.

The design life in years is another and the more important matter. I assume it is at least three years. I just hope that much lighter use does not shorten the printer's useful life, as it did with my father's old, Tektronix color laser printer.
 

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2020, 03:26:46 pm »
 I gave up on color inkjet a number of years ago. I print so little in color that the ink was always drying up, netting me only a few pages worth of yield from each expensive cartridge or refill. For infrequent use, even heavy use with long idle times between uses, you can't beat laser - the color toner doesn't dry up just sitting there, it's ready to go even if you haven't printed in color for a month.
 I happen to have a Canon. I found a good source on Amazon that has proven to work reliably, for third party replacement toners. For the cost of one Canon genuine color cartridge, I get a pack that has all 3 colors, plus 2 blacks - since I (actually, it's my GF) prints a LOT of text, we go through black toner like crazy. Even with the 2:1 ratio, I still buy extra blacks.
 I've had this about 5 years now, it's probably printed close if not over the rated pages per year, and just keeps on chugging. It has WiFi, wired ethernet, and USB, but since it sits 5 feet from my switch, I have it plugged in instead of using WiFi.
 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2020, 03:01:04 am »
I gave up on color inkjet a number of years ago. I print so little in color that the ink was always drying up, netting me only a few pages worth of yield from each expensive cartridge or refill. For infrequent use, even heavy use with long idle times between uses, you can't beat laser - the color toner doesn't dry up just sitting there, it's ready to go even if you haven't printed in color for a month.
 I happen to have a Canon. I found a good source on Amazon that has proven to work reliably, for third party replacement toners. For the cost of one Canon genuine color cartridge, I get a pack that has all 3 colors, plus 2 blacks - since I (actually, it's my GF) prints a LOT of text, we go through black toner like crazy. Even with the 2:1 ratio, I still buy extra blacks.
 I've had this about 5 years now, it's probably printed close if not over the rated pages per year, and just keeps on chugging. It has WiFi, wired ethernet, and USB, but since it sits 5 feet from my switch, I have it plugged in instead of using WiFi.

I'm making sure to get the worst of all worlds, by caring for several different inkjets as well as mono laser...  please don't talk me into looking into color laser as well!    :scared:
 

Online tooki

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2020, 10:23:42 am »
I gave up on color inkjet a number of years ago. I print so little in color that the ink was always drying up, netting me only a few pages worth of yield from each expensive cartridge or refill. For infrequent use, even heavy use with long idle times between uses, you can't beat laser - the color toner doesn't dry up just sitting there, it's ready to go even if you haven't printed in color for a month.
For sure, I also recommend lasers for people who print sporadically. But FWIW, there are massive differences in inkjets’ tolerances for downtime. 1990s-2000s Epsons were notorious for being spectacularly intolerant of downtime. By the end of the 2000s, I would not recommend them for anything other than busy offices (where high-quality color was needed) where they’d be used on a daily basis. Even just once-weekly use wasn’t enough to guarantee they wouldn’t clog.

In contrast, Canon inkjets with the separate ink tanks, at least the ones from 2000 on, have proven to be excellent performers in this regard. Yes, they’ll still use a bit more ink after a very long downtime, but they don’t clog up, even after months of sitting idle. I’m still using my 2008 Canon MP970, and in literally 12 years, I’ve only had to deep-clean the heads once or twice. (And with it being such an old model, I’ve been able to stock up on genuine Canon ink for free or close to it by trawling the classifieds for unopened ink from people who upgraded to a newer printer and had leftover spare tanks.)

Finally, while it’s a much smaller problem than inkjet ink drying up, laser cartridges do not have unlimited shelf life. Just last night, I pulled out the small B&W laser (also a classifieds freebie) that I have for PCB making, only to discover that in the probably 2-3 years it was sitting in the cupboard, the imaging drum has gone bad — it has a horizontal stripe across the drum, presumably from the prolonged contact with another roller. I’ve heard of this problem before, as well as of the rubber wiper blades going hard. Either way, a new print cartridge solves it, and it takes years, not months, to happen. But it does happen. :P

(Then, last night, the printer decided to not eject the toner transfer sheet, but instead wrap it around the fuser drum and iron it tight. In the process of getting that off, I caused a few scratches on the fuser drum, effectively ruining it. Good thing it was a freebie with a nearly-empty cartridge!!!)
 

Online tooki

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2020, 10:35:39 am »
Is there a good color wax printer out there like the Xerox we had a work?  I forget the model but it had 4 or 5 WAX cubes instead of a toner cartridge.  It had the best printout I have ever seen in a color printer and it was as fast as a laser.  It did need services a couple times a year, but it was used hard, probably printing 200-500 pages a day.  I would love one of those, or similar, for here at home. LOL, I can only dream.  I wonder if WAX printers are okay for PCB transfer paper?  I would highly doubt it.
Addendum to my prior reply to you:

The reason the wax-inkjet Phaser printers were so fast was that they had page-width printheads (one for each color, of course), so it took merely one pass (edit: probably a few, see SeanB’s reply) of the transfer belt transfer drum under the heads to create the image, and then one swift transfer to the paper while ejecting. Pairing that with the fast CPUs they put inside those things is what let them have the superb print speeds.

Anyway, while wax inkjet is now gone, page-width aqueous inkjet now exists. HP sells it as their “PageWide” printers. I’ve not had a chance to try one yet, but if their specs are to be believed, they’ve got outstanding print speeds, with the same low time-to-first-page times as a prewarmed wax Phaser. And the ink for them is cheap. (As in, the cartridges cost a bit, but they’re enormous. AFAIK these have some of the lowest page costs of any desktop/office printers in existence.) Like the wax Phasers, they’re sold as small-workgroup office printers. What I have no idea about is their resilience to sporadic use. I know HP uses a lot of technologies to prevent and clear clogs (like back suction to reverse clogs back out, instead of trying to force them out forward like previous ones), but I just have no practical experience with these.

As for print quality, they wouldn’t be my first choice for photos, as even their maximum resolution (1200x1200dpi) isn’t that high. But I have seen the output from them, and it’s great for business graphics, text, and other everyday documents.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 02:50:59 pm by tooki »
 

Offline jfiresto

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2020, 10:38:07 am »
... I pulled out the small B&W laser (also a classifieds freebie) that I have for PCB making, only to discover that in the probably 2-3 years it was sitting in the cupboard, the imaging drum has gone bad — it has a horizontal stripe across the drum, presumably from the prolonged contact with another roller....

Are you sure it was not (not so) prolonged light pollution?
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2020, 07:32:47 pm »
Are you sure it was not (not so) prolonged light pollution?
That was my first thought too. There's a reason many (most? all?) toner cartridges that have an integral drum are shipped in black plastic bags.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2020, 10:30:23 am »
Are you sure it was not (not so) prolonged light pollution?
That was my first thought too. There's a reason many (most? all?) toner cartridges that have an integral drum are shipped in black plastic bags.

He said the m/c was in a 'cupboard', and the drum would be hidden inside the m/c. Can't see light being a problem.
I'd be more curious about how it now printed, with regards to quality??
 

Online tooki

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2020, 11:32:56 am »
... I pulled out the small B&W laser (also a classifieds freebie) that I have for PCB making, only to discover that in the probably 2-3 years it was sitting in the cupboard, the imaging drum has gone bad — it has a horizontal stripe across the drum, presumably from the prolonged contact with another roller....

Are you sure it was not (not so) prolonged light pollution?
Definitely sure it wasn’t. The printer was in a closed cardboard box, and the cartridge was inside the printer. No way for light to get in. Before going into the box, it worked flawlessly.

The damage to the drum is mechanical: it’s a roughened (textured) line about 1.5mm thick. So it’s not just desensitization of the photosensitive coating.

(It’s a moot point anyway at this point: the printer subsequently decided to commit suicide by wrapping an A5 sheet of toner transfer paper around the fuser drum, and the rotations ironed it down nice and tight. No idea why it choked on the A5, since that is a supported paper size, and it had no trouble with the A4 sheets of transfer paper. In the process of removing that mess, I caused a few scratches to the fuser drum’s Teflon coating. On paper, that just causes very minor flaws, but on toner transfer paper, where toner adhesion is deliberately weak, it tears off chunks of toner. :/ Luckily this thing was a freebie I didn’t pay one cent for!)
 

Online tooki

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2020, 11:43:01 am »
Are you sure it was not (not so) prolonged light pollution?
That was my first thought too. There's a reason many (most? all?) toner cartridges that have an integral drum are shipped in black plastic bags.

He said the m/c was in a 'cupboard', and the drum would be hidden inside the m/c. Can't see light being a problem.
I'd be more curious about how it now printed, with regards to quality??
Other than the banding due to the imaging drum damage (and prior to the fuser drum damage), the print quality was absolutely flawless. The PCBs I made (using the band-free center portion of the image, which was just wide enough for my circuit) came out very well, with sharply defined edges. (Only the center fill of broad traces could have used a bit more toner, even with the highest density setting.)

I suppose it helps that I have a really good laminator. It cost me $1 on the local auction site, but apparently would have cost over $400 when it was new. A few passes thought it on high heat (with the PCB and transfer sheet sandwiched in a folded sheet of plain paper) and done. This was actually the first time I’ve done toner transfer, and it worked better than I’d hoped for, the printer issues notwithstanding.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2020, 12:40:42 pm »
Addendum to my prior reply to you:

The reason the wax-inkjet Phaser printers were so fast was that they had page-width printheads (one for each color, of course), so it took merely one pass of the transfer belt under the heads to create the image, and then one swift transfer to the paper while ejecting. Pairing that with the fast CPUs they put inside those things is what let them have the superb print speeds.

Anyway. while wax inkjet is now gone, page-width aqueous inkjet now exists. HP sells it as their “PageWide” printers. I’ve not had a chance to try one yet, but if their specs are to be believed, they’ve got outstanding print speeds, with the same low time-to-first-page times as a prewarmed wax Phaser. And the ink for them is cheap. (As in, the cartridges cost a bit, but they’re enormous. AFAIK these have some of the lowest page costs of any desktop/office printers in existence.) Like the wax Phasers, they’re sold as small-workgroup office printers. What I have no idea about is their resilience to sporadic use. I know HP uses a lot of technologies to prevent and clear clogs (like back suction to reverse clogs back out, instead of trying to force them out forward like previous ones), but I just have no practical experience with these.

As for print quality, they wouldn’t be my first choice for photos, as even their maximum resolution (1200x1200dpi) isn’t that high. But I have seen the output from them, and it’s great for business graphics, text, and other everyday documents.

Phasor printers do have a page width print head, but it makes up an image on the heated transfer drum from multiple rotations of the drum, stepping the head over a pixel width at a time to build up the full page image, then it transfers the hot wax film image from the oil layer onto the paper in a single rotation. There are around 50 IIRC of each colour wax jets, each with it's own channel for hot wax in the main casting, and each with it's own piezo actuator to pump out a droplet of hot wax onto the drum surface as it passes by, just clearing the head. go through the menu structure and get to the test print, and it will make a set of 4 colour bars down the page, each corresponding to a print head output.

Not cheap to run though, as they use around a half stick of the wax ( black still free right) per colur during start up, as the heads are heated up, the vacuum head is pulled over the nozzle area, and the pump runs to pull hot wax through the head multiple times, to clear any air bubbles out of the wax passages. Then the wax is deposited into the maintenance tray as a black blob. then the maintenance tray is lifted up so the wiper pad can clean the drum surface, then it applies the oil film needed to float the image before transferring to the paper as it passes through.

They suck with transparencies, smearing them, but work well on any card or paper stock you run through them, as the paper path is nearly straight. they also are exactly the same cost per page, so I almost always would print anything as white or coloured images on a solid black (at least to the page borders) background.

Still got one in the garage, but as the wax blocks were over $100 per colour, for 3 blocks, or a month's supply in standby, I have not powered it for a decade. Got plenty of black though, I have been using them as candles, just stick a hole in the middle, and put in a wick.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2020, 01:00:18 pm »
... I pulled out the small B&W laser (also a classifieds freebie) that I have for PCB making, only to discover that in the probably 2-3 years it was sitting in the cupboard, the imaging drum has gone bad — it has a horizontal stripe across the drum, presumably from the prolonged contact with another roller....

Are you sure it was not (not so) prolonged light pollution?
Definitely sure it wasn’t. The printer was in a closed cardboard box, and the cartridge was inside the printer. No way for light to get in. Before going into the box, it worked flawlessly.

The damage to the drum is mechanical: it’s a roughened (textured) line about 1.5mm thick. So it’s not just desensitization of the photosensitive coating.

(It’s a moot point anyway at this point: the printer subsequently decided to commit suicide by wrapping an A5 sheet of toner transfer paper around the fuser drum, and the rotations ironed it down nice and tight. No idea why it choked on the A5, since that is a supported paper size, and it had no trouble with the A4 sheets of transfer paper. In the process of removing that mess, I caused a few scratches to the fuser drum’s Teflon coating. On paper, that just causes very minor flaws, but on toner transfer paper, where toner adhesion is deliberately weak, it tears off chunks of toner. :/ Luckily this thing was a freebie I didn’t pay one cent for!)

Re: your last paragraph. While recently looking at glossy paper options, especially when people so often now want to print PCB circuits, I was warned to never use paper meant for an InkJet printer, (has a special coating for ink absorption), as the Laser printers have way too much heat and can melt that coating!  Don't know if this applies to you or not?
 

Online tooki

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2020, 03:04:56 pm »
Addendum to my prior reply to you:

The reason the wax-inkjet Phaser printers were so fast was that they had page-width printheads (one for each color, of course), so it took merely one pass of the transfer belt under the heads to create the image, and then one swift transfer to the paper while ejecting. Pairing that with the fast CPUs they put inside those things is what let them have the superb print speeds.

Anyway. while wax inkjet is now gone, page-width aqueous inkjet now exists. HP sells it as their “PageWide” printers. I’ve not had a chance to try one yet, but if their specs are to be believed, they’ve got outstanding print speeds, with the same low time-to-first-page times as a prewarmed wax Phaser. And the ink for them is cheap. (As in, the cartridges cost a bit, but they’re enormous. AFAIK these have some of the lowest page costs of any desktop/office printers in existence.) Like the wax Phasers, they’re sold as small-workgroup office printers. What I have no idea about is their resilience to sporadic use. I know HP uses a lot of technologies to prevent and clear clogs (like back suction to reverse clogs back out, instead of trying to force them out forward like previous ones), but I just have no practical experience with these.

As for print quality, they wouldn’t be my first choice for photos, as even their maximum resolution (1200x1200dpi) isn’t that high. But I have seen the output from them, and it’s great for business graphics, text, and other everyday documents.

Phasor printers do have a page width print head, but it makes up an image on the heated transfer drum from multiple rotations of the drum, stepping the head over a pixel width at a time to build up the full page image, then it transfers the hot wax film image from the oil layer onto the paper in a single rotation. There are around 50 IIRC of each colour wax jets, each with it's own channel for hot wax in the main casting, and each with it's own piezo actuator to pump out a droplet of hot wax onto the drum surface as it passes by, just clearing the head. go through the menu structure and get to the test print, and it will make a set of 4 colour bars down the page, each corresponding to a print head output.

Not cheap to run though, as they use around a half stick of the wax ( black still free right) per colur during start up, as the heads are heated up, the vacuum head is pulled over the nozzle area, and the pump runs to pull hot wax through the head multiple times, to clear any air bubbles out of the wax passages. Then the wax is deposited into the maintenance tray as a black blob. then the maintenance tray is lifted up so the wiper pad can clean the drum surface, then it applies the oil film needed to float the image before transferring to the paper as it passes through.

They suck with transparencies, smearing them, but work well on any card or paper stock you run through them, as the paper path is nearly straight. they also are exactly the same cost per page, so I almost always would print anything as white or coloured images on a solid black (at least to the page borders) background.

Still got one in the garage, but as the wax blocks were over $100 per colour, for 3 blocks, or a month's supply in standby, I have not powered it for a decade. Got plenty of black though, I have been using them as candles, just stick a hole in the middle, and put in a wick.
Thanks for the info!! Sadly, there is very little technical info on these things available online.


A bit of research says that the regular A4 size models had 440 nozzles per color.

How much do the heads move? From illustrations, it’s clear it’s page-wide, so 440 nozzles for a color, onto roughly 8.25” wide paper, works out to about 50dpi, which would mean 12 rotations to achieve the normal 600dpi print output. So does the head, in essence, just wiggle over a total of 1/50” in 1/600” steps? Given the high print speeds, this must mean the drum is rotating at a ferocious rate, explaining why the page is ultimately ejected with such enthusiasm!


I remember how much wax they used on startup. (And the free black.) As I stated earlier, this made them wholly unsuitable for anything other than workgroups, where it’d get used regularly and never, ever turned off.


Odd that you had smearing on transparencies. The ones I saw come out of these were flawless. (But like color laser transparencies, almost worthless, since the opacity of the color pigments meant that a colorful transparency still appeared nearly black and white when projected! Aqueous inkjet with dye inks is far better for this.)
 

Online tooki

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2020, 03:10:57 pm »
... I pulled out the small B&W laser (also a classifieds freebie) that I have for PCB making, only to discover that in the probably 2-3 years it was sitting in the cupboard, the imaging drum has gone bad — it has a horizontal stripe across the drum, presumably from the prolonged contact with another roller....

Are you sure it was not (not so) prolonged light pollution?
Definitely sure it wasn’t. The printer was in a closed cardboard box, and the cartridge was inside the printer. No way for light to get in. Before going into the box, it worked flawlessly.

The damage to the drum is mechanical: it’s a roughened (textured) line about 1.5mm thick. So it’s not just desensitization of the photosensitive coating.

(It’s a moot point anyway at this point: the printer subsequently decided to commit suicide by wrapping an A5 sheet of toner transfer paper around the fuser drum, and the rotations ironed it down nice and tight. No idea why it choked on the A5, since that is a supported paper size, and it had no trouble with the A4 sheets of transfer paper. In the process of removing that mess, I caused a few scratches to the fuser drum’s Teflon coating. On paper, that just causes very minor flaws, but on toner transfer paper, where toner adhesion is deliberately weak, it tears off chunks of toner. :/ Luckily this thing was a freebie I didn’t pay one cent for!)

Re: your last paragraph. While recently looking at glossy paper options, especially when people so often now want to print PCB circuits, I was warned to never use paper meant for an InkJet printer, (has a special coating for ink absorption), as the Laser printers have way too much heat and can melt that coating!  Don't know if this applies to you or not?
Definitely not. I said “toner transfer paper” because I bought toner transfer paper made specifically for this purpose. It’s paper with one side laminated with a non-stick coating that just baaaarely holds onto the fused toner. So when you then use a laminator to apply it to the PCB, the toner adheres to the copper and readily releases from the transfer paper.

(From my writings on printers, including the replies in this thread, I’d think it was obvious that I have more than a passing understanding of printer technologies, and certainly would know not to use inkjet photo papers in a laser printer.  ;) )
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2020, 11:55:45 am »
Sorry...   :-[
Am only online every few days and can't read everything.  ^-^
Hope you and your family are safe in these troubled times!!
 
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Online tooki

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2020, 09:41:41 am »
Sorry...   :-[
Am only online every few days and can't read everything.  ^-^
Hope you and your family are safe in these troubled times!!
Thank you, you as well!

I’m fortunate that my home electronics lab is reasonably well equipped (both in equipment and parts), so rather than going into work, I can do it from home. (I’m interning at a vocational school before beginning an apprenticeship as an electronics technician in the fall.)
 

Online rrinker

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2020, 06:35:04 pm »
 Interesting - the best overheads I ever saw were from a wax Tektronix printer we had at the place I worked. There was a certain quality to them, reminded me of an elementary school art project where we used crayon shavings then pressed it with a hot iron. The ones we used were special blanks made for that type of printer - I can't imagine an ordinary type working well. Even ink jets have problems, the transparencies designed for inkjet printing usually have a slightly rough surface on the inked side to allow it to adhere.

 I did have one problem with my color laser, because of rarely actually needing color, I ran it for a long time with the color toners actually empty. Until it started leaving a pattern of lines on black and white prints. Cleaning didn't help, looking at the black cartridge, it was fine. But I pulled a color cartridge - black stripe across the drum. Checked the other 3 - same thing. Scraped, not deposited - I guess they don;t like running with absolutely no toner. Replaced the colors - black printed perfectly fine again.
 

Online tooki

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Re: Color Laser Printer WIFI (Although I'm old!)
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2020, 11:03:18 pm »
Interesting - the best overheads I ever saw were from a wax Tektronix printer we had at the place I worked. There was a certain quality to them, reminded me of an elementary school art project where we used crayon shavings then pressed it with a hot iron.
Encaustic painting. ;)

A transparency like that sounds interesting, but not necessarily good.

The ones we used were special blanks made for that type of printer - I can't imagine an ordinary type working well. Even ink jets have problems, the transparencies designed for inkjet printing usually have a slightly rough surface on the inked side to allow it to adhere.
Well yeah, you have to use special transparencies for any printer (the ones for writing on with pens will melt in a laser, in an inkjet the ink beads up on them, and I’m honestly not sure what would have happened in a wax printer).

The roughness of inkjet transparencies isn’t visible when projected. What I can say is that by 1998 or so, when I had a 720dpi epson inkjet, the color transparencies from it absolutely wowed people, because they looked spectacular. (For what it’s worth, the roughness was just for grip, in particular for early HP Deskjets, which had a U-shape paper path with feeble rollers that just wouldn’t reliably transport smoother transparencies. It’s the gelatinous coating that makes them amenable to aqueous inks. Some inkjet transparencies had only very, very subtle texture. And there exist opaque glossy inkjet films based on the same types of coatings, but without any texture at all.)
 


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