Author Topic: Come in through-hole components your time is up!  (Read 14400 times)

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Offline badvocTopic starter

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Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« on: May 05, 2017, 09:07:19 pm »
Hi All,

My username is Badvoc, i am a new member to this forum, it's great to be here  :-+

I was just wondering what the forums views are on through-hole components are? Do we think these types of components are going to be phased out in the future in favor of Surface Mount or the next new thing. And will this spell the end of hobbyist electronics for some people in the future?

I have yet to attempt using Surface Mount components and still rely on breadboards and prototyping boards for my projects and tinkering about, so i try and keep a good stock of though-hole parts, but i haven't yet noticed any difficulty in obtaining these components, what is everyone else's experience  or views on this subject?

Thanks for reading

Badvoc

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2017, 09:19:14 pm »
What do you mean, phased out in the future? They were phased out 20 years ago.
 

Offline JoeN

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2017, 09:26:48 pm »
For ICs, they are all but phased out as the above poster said.  Get used to surface mount, even if you are a hobbyist.  DIP Trace and OSHPark are your friends.  Other components, such as jacks, are through hole and will stay that way for mechanical strength.  Nobody is going to mount a 1 pound transformer on a PCB without fasteners, for example, it would peel away with the first one inch drop.  You still see some through-hole power transistors and the like, but there are surface packages taking over for this as well.  This surface package from Fairchild is so sexy (and such good specs):



I think a lot of the older similar through-hole parts are less expensive and get used under many circumstances because of price.
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Offline hans

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2017, 09:47:08 pm »
Through hole is already of the past.

In some applications still preferred though, like connectors for rigidity, although in consumer products this is also more often not the case (because cost).

Just learn to use surface mount. If through hole never existed we wouldn't know better. I think the hobby will not die out if there are still plenty of people that are able and willing to learn the new technologies (albeit at a lower pace or delayed compared to industry). And SMT is very accessible for hobbyists.

If it is still too difficult, there is still a whole range of cheap boards on Ebay, Adafruit, SparkFun etc. with lots of fun chips already connected. Just a few pin headers and wires and you're up and running.
 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2017, 10:16:21 pm »
For ic's, sure, for high power active devices and large wattage / larger capacitance /inductance you are still in the relm of through hole to even chassis mount. Each has there role, but i agree there is less and less need to use them as computing trends towards lower power and our switching devices become more effective.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2017, 11:54:04 pm »
I'm in the same boat myself, I use mostly through hole and would hate to see it go.  As a casual hobbyist I'm just not equipped for SMD. You need a very good microscope (not just zoom, but optical clarity, focus distance etc) and very precise tools.  I've attempted even "large" SMD parts but without proper equipment it's very hard.  You pretty much need to have proper circuit boards for them too, trying to solder them "free air" is much harder and more tedius.  They move around too much and with only 2 hands you can only do so much.  With through hole at least you stick them in the protoboard and flip them and the weight of the protoboard is enough for it to stay put while you solder.   It's not so much that SMD is not doable it just takes much more effort if you're not properly equipped.   But their real advantage is in mass automated production as threw hole is kinda a pain for that.

If it comes to a point where it's hard to find stuff in through hole I suppose the norm is going to be to get break out boards made out for prototyping etc.  You can buy them but they're kinda spendy if you want a lot of them but with how cheap it is to get PCBs made you could make your own.  I need to sit down and learn KIcad properly so I can do that myself.  I have a couple parts that I thought would be easy to deadbug but tried and it's super tedius to do. I'm sure I'd get it eventually but with proper boards it won't be as hard.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2017, 02:29:19 am »
Surface Mount Technology (SMT) is the technology of today, but Through Hole (TH) is still an effective method and I can see it hanging in there for a while yet.  Through hole is more than a mature technology, it's manufacture is now so well developed that while a market exists, running the machines isn't an economic problem at this time.  You will know when the market shrinks - prices will go up.

However, this state of Electronics as a hobby has been discussed elsewhere - and there is one aspect of the nature of electronics that is clear: It is changing.

In the early days, you would build a crystal set - where you actually had a crystal and a cat's whisker which you played around with to get your diode rectification.  I still have the rather cumbersome setup my father had in the 1940's.  When I was a kid, I bought a crystal set kit - which had a semiconductor diode.  No fiddling required.  The 'craft' had moved on.  Nobody tries rolling their own diodes for this application these days - unless they are doing something retro, nostalgic or educational.

When I was a young lad, ICs were something you had heard about, but would never have expected to have them to play with.  Instead, my Philips EE20 kit had discrete components, with the most exotic being an AF114 transistor.  DTL and RTL packages were around, but not big in my world.  Then things moved on.

The days of the 741, 555 and 7400 series TTL brought a whole new world of capability - and they were embraced with eagerness.  The two transistor flip flop was replaced by the far more capable 555 timer in a vast array of applications.  Our designs became more adventurous, our objectives more complex and the ability to achieve them far more readily found.  Then things moved on ... again.

We now live in a world of electronics where it is commonplace to be able to work with microprocessors, FPGAs and the like which are a scale of capability I could not have imagined 30 years ago, let alone be able to afford.  A couple of years ago, I was able to buy 5 Arduino Nano clones for $1.97 each - delivered to my letter box.  That level of price, performance and capability is something that would have blown my mind when I was in high school, yet today is commonplace.

So it is with the packaging.  We are looking at greater capability which brings greater complexity and the need for space to accommodate it - and since the older TH packages contained so much wasted space on the footprint, package reduction is only natural.

Bottom line ... don't be afraid of SMD.  All you need is a steady hand and either good eyesight or a headband magnifier.  Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty, it's how you learn.

The days of setting up your own cat's whisker diode for a run-of-the-mill project are long gone.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 02:31:58 am by Brumby »
 

Offline badvocTopic starter

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2017, 07:01:54 am »
Thanks everyone for all the useful feedback, much appreciated  :-+
 
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Offline badvocTopic starter

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2017, 07:08:11 am »
What do you mean, phased out in the future? They were phased out 20 years ago.

Hi Monkeh, thanks for the reply. I was just wondering if these types of components would become unavailable to purchase in the future. I don't see a problem now, but just wondered if manufacturers will stop producing at some point.

Offline Zbig

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2017, 09:27:04 am »
EDIT:

Just had my coffee, sat down and re-read my previous post. Then I realized I was an arrogant prick with what and how I wrote previously. Anyway, here's the first PCB I ever made, not so much to brag about as to hopefully prove SMT is not rocket science and is the way to go, even for an amateur like myself.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 10:39:00 am by Zbig »
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2017, 09:53:46 am »
PTH is still very relevant in some situations.

EXAMPLES:
  TO-220 devices when needed to be connected to a vertically mounted heatsink.
  SMA connectors on PCBs. Why? Mechanical robustness.
  DC power input connectors or photo jack connectors. Why? Mechanical robustness.
  Female header connectors. Why? Cost.
  Optocouplers. Why? Isolation, although you can now get many in SMD with the same isolation characteristics.
  PCB mounted speakers. Why? Cost and availability.
  High power resistors.

Other than those and a few other examples, SMD is the way to go. These days, there is little reason or excuse not to use SMD in general. My eyesight is not crash hot, and yet I can solder 0402 resistors without too much fuss. I have even hand soldered 0201's - not much fun, but doable.

For SMD, older folks might need some visual aids. You will need a decent soldering iron, decent solder, decent flux and decent tweezers. A hot air de-soldering tool helps too.

PTH ICs are generally very old school. It's like wearing flares and body shirts. You'd look like a dag. Time to get with the times.
 

Offline hans

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2017, 09:57:01 am »
TH ICs are being phased out. NXP dropped all their DIP parts for their logic ICs and other legacy ICs (like some old microcontrollers).

However, I see this more of a materialization of a decision taken 10-20 years ago. Look up any modern analog signal or digital logic chip. Almost none of these are available in DIP. They are all at least SOIC, often SSOP packages. I wouldn't be surprised if more silicon vendors like TI will follow in the upcoming 5-10 years.


Dave did a great soldering tutorial on SMT. There are not that many tools required to do the job, although some people may find a microscope a necessity if they have unfavorable eyesight. For me I only use a 4x loop for inspection.
I wouldn't even get too dragged along into using flux for every solder joint. The stuff smells, sticks, makes a giant mess, and with good fresh solder there is also flux inside it. Only for QFP or QFN chips I will use flux to make sure the soldering job will succeed.
 

Offline rs20

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2017, 10:03:27 am »
VK3DRB, you can add other large passives to that list (capacitor, inductors) too. Easier to solder, soldering process doesn't stress the part as much, and more mechanically robust.
 

Offline ZeTeX

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2017, 11:13:45 am »
My lab is stocked with TH parts, how am I supposed to transfer it all to SMT?
I'm very slowly trying to buy only SMT and use only SMT but I have a lot of TH capacitors, resistors, op amps, diodes, bjt, fets, what not, and I can't afford to just stop use them and order a LOT of SMT parts.

For a beginner who just started I can advice to use SMT when can, and try to order mostly SMD.
 

Online brabus

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2017, 12:38:43 pm »
During one of my latest product designs, I could not afford to mount an SMD 3.5mm jack header, due to the fact that all the stress is taken by the solder joints and I did not want random jacks to detach themselves from the boards on the field. I found a very good PTH part, which allowed me even some space saving on the PCB, thanks to the straight vertical pins instead of SMD large pads.

The choice between SMD and PTH was in some other cases more fine, e.g.: high voltage paths, mechanically/thermically stressed PCBs, solderability (does this word even exist in English?), producibility.

 

Offline rob77

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2017, 02:28:22 pm »
You need a very good microscope (not just zoom, but optical clarity, focus distance etc) and very precise tools.  I've attempted even "large" SMD parts but without proper equipment it's very hard.
let me disagree.. you don't even need a microscope. a cheap 4x magnifying glass is enough (the one old ladies use for knitting is good enough). SOIC packages and 1206 passives are doable without any kind of magnification. furthermore you need a pair of sharp tipped tweezers, solder paste and source of hot-air for soldering, if you're careful you can even use a  hot-air gun for paint striping (low setting and heating board from 10-15cm till the paste flows). so no expensive equipment needed.
Quote
You pretty much need to have proper circuit boards for them too, trying to solder them "free air" is much harder and more tedius.  They move around too much and with only 2 hands you can only do so much.  With through hole at least you stick them in the protoboard and flip them and the weight of the protoboard is enough for it to stay put while you solder. 
fully agree you have to have proper PCBs for SMD. that's why it makes sense to make your own PCBs (unless you want to wait weeks for your cheap boards from China)
Quote
It's not so much that SMD is not doable it just takes much more effort if you're not properly equipped. 
actually the effort is on par with building on proto-boards.. more effort goes into designing and making the PCB and much less effort into actual assembly, but at the end of the day it's the same amount of effort.
 

Offline daqq

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2017, 03:24:40 pm »
I'd say that connectors (and sockets or other potentially mechanically stressed components) will be available as through-hole (or at least have mechanical holding pins) - there's just no reasonable way to replace the mechanical stability this provides.

Also, the heavier parts will be mostly through-hole - large ass capacitors, transformers, a lot of what makes a PSU.

Also, the power parts seem to be more easily mountable onto heatsinks when they are through-hole.

That said, in the future there will be less components available as through hole devices, for already stated reasons.
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Online Zero999

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2017, 05:41:59 pm »
I wouldn't even get too dragged along into using flux for every solder joint. The stuff smells, sticks, makes a giant mess, and with good fresh solder there is also flux inside it. Only for QFP or QFN chips I will use flux to make sure the soldering job will succeed.
I don't see why some people feel the need to use a load of flux.I just use rosin cored solder for everything, The only time I need extra flux is when the board or components are badly oxidised.
 
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2017, 08:52:31 pm »
You need a very good microscope (not just zoom, but optical clarity, focus distance etc) and very precise tools.  I've attempted even "large" SMD parts but without proper equipment it's very hard.
let me disagree.. you don't even need a microscope. a cheap 4x magnifying glass is enough (the one old ladies use for knitting is good enough). SOIC packages and 1206 passives are doable without any kind of magnification. furthermore you need a pair of sharp tipped tweezers, solder paste and source of hot-air for soldering, if you're careful you can even use a  hot-air gun for paint striping (low setting and heating board from 10-15cm till the paste flows). so no expensive equipment needed.
 

The issue I find is mostly trying to get everything to stay steady and making movements that are tiny enough.  The natural shake of my hand is much higher magnitude than the size of most SMD pins.  I guess you could consider the shake as "noise" and what you want to solder the "signal".  The "noise to signal" ratio becomes very high when trying to work at such small parts.  I can see fine with magnifier, I just can't actually maneuver that precisely.  Eventually I get it, but I find it takes much more effort.  I don't have any fancy tweezers or anything like that though, most of the stuff you buy these days is garbage crap from China, I have some tweezers but they don't really seem to pick up or hold stuff very well. 

One thing that's crossed my mind is to have some kind of spring loaded set of metal pins/fingers that can push down on chips, if you can have something keep it steady on a thick heavy piece of wood then you can solder magnet wire to each lead without the chip wanting to go everywhere. 

I guess bottom line is once you can find a proper way of doing it, it's probably not that hard after all.  I do see that a lot of ICs are only in SMD so by trying to do only TH I'm really limiting myself in selection.  I have these 30amp current sensors that are SMD and I under estimated how small they are when I ordered them.  I'm surprised you can even pass 30 amps through something that small!  You normally need like #10 conductor for 30 amps and the whole chip is smaller than that.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2017, 10:27:32 pm »
I'm in the same boat myself, I use mostly through hole and would hate to see it go.  As a casual hobbyist I'm just not equipped for SMD. You need a very good microscope (not just zoom, but optical clarity, focus distance etc) and very precise tools.  I've attempted even "large" SMD parts but without proper equipment it's very hard.  You pretty much need to have proper circuit boards for them too, trying to solder them "free air" is much harder and more tedius.  They move around too much and with only 2 hands you can only do so much.  With through hole at least you stick them in the protoboard and flip them and the weight of the protoboard is enough for it to stay put while you solder.   It's not so much that SMD is not doable it just takes much more effort if you're not properly equipped.   But their real advantage is in mass automated production as threw hole is kinda a pain for that.


I guess I have to disagree.  Surface mount is faster and easier than through-hole even for me, an aged hobbyist.  I squirt some solder paste on the pads, place the parts and cook the board in one of two ways.  The cheapest is to use a hot plate where the flat surface is sufficient for the size of the board.  Like this:
http://www.target.com/p/oster-single-burner-hot-plate-ckstsb100/-/A-13773420

The second way is to modify a toaster oven (mine is the now obsolete Black & Decker InfraWave with an Arduino controller) by adding controls and, in my case, sheets of insulation:
http://www.rocketscream.com/shop/reflow-oven-controller-shield-arduino-compatible

The third possibility that I sometimes use is to just place the parts in the solder paste, hold them down with curved tweezers and hit the junction with a soldering iron.  This is pretty slow compared to either of the other methods.

SMD is NOT an issue.  All you need is solder paste, flux, a decent soldering iron and, perhaps, a hot plate or toaster oven.  Some people use the hot air rework tools to good advantage.  I haven't found mine to be helpful.

I don't even bother to buy stencils, I just dab the solder paste on by hand.

Quote
If it comes to a point where it's hard to find stuff in through hole I suppose the norm is going to be to get break out boards made out for prototyping etc.  You can buy them but they're kinda spendy if you want a lot of them but with how cheap it is to get PCBs made you could make your own.  I need to sit down and learn KIcad properly so I can do that myself.  I have a couple parts that I thought would be easy to deadbug but tried and it's super tedius to do. I'm sure I'd get it eventually but with proper boards it won't be as hard.

Adapters for prototyping work well.  They are just as hard to solder.

I don't have a microscope but I have been getting a lot of use out of my Optivisor.  I have two, one is a little more powerful but the field of view sucks.  I have to get my head right down there.

Drag soldering is another option.  Just smear the pads with flux, place the part and hold it down.  Put just a tiny bit of solder on the tip and hit the corner pins.  Once the device is locked in place, put a little more solder on the tip and run it down the pins.  It's amazing how well drag soldering works.  Google for videos.

I buy all my PCBs from ExpressPCB.  As a result of the MiniBoard concept, my boardsize is limited.  Using SMDs means I can still build projects with many dozens of components.  ExpressPCB software is probably the least sophisticated on the market but it is very easy to use and autorouting never makes a mess.  It doesn't have autorouting...
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2017, 10:43:23 pm »
Like I said if you have the right equipment (which you have) it's not as hard.  I'm talking about someone who may not have all that equipment. With just a solder iron (even a crappy fire stick with a thick tip) and regular solder, you can do through hole much easier than SMD.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2017, 11:33:28 pm »
Like I said if you have the right equipment (which you have) it's not as hard.  I'm talking about someone who may not have all that equipment. With just a solder iron (even a crappy fire stick with a thick tip) and regular solder, you can do through hole much easier than SMD.

Yes, through-hole is easier to solder but if there are no through-hole devices, it just doesn't matter.

It turns out that a large tip works well for drag soldering.  A fine pointed tip is almost worthless.
I think my tip is a 1/8" chisel type and it is all I have ever used.

Flux is the only thing that is really required that the beginner might not have.  It isn't required to use solder paste.  In fact, for drag soldering, it isn't even used. 

For the 'no extra equipment' approach to SMD, drag soldering works well.  Just put flux on the pads, place and hold the component and drag a bit of solder off the tip.  Add a little more solder and drag some more.  It's truly easy!

Flux is the key!

OK, add SolderWick.  It is inevitable that there will be solder bridges.  Put some flux over the affected pins, lay the braid across and hit it with the iron.  The problem with SolderWick is that it will sometimes take too much solder off.  Expect to have to apply more flux and drag a bit more solder.

SMD is easy, it doesn't have much of a startup cost and there is no reason to hang back because, sooner or later, you will be left behind.  We're simply out of the DIP business.

 
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2017, 12:05:54 am »
I usually use visual aids - microscope, Vision Mantis or a 5X Inspector Gadget. But a very handy device is a decent mobile telephone with a magnifier app. The app illuminates the object and you can vary the magnification. A good phone will have a nice macro.

http://www.altronics.com.au/inspectagadget/
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2017, 12:09:11 am »
I'm all for newer technology  :-+ 

Has any company produced through-hole SMD adapters ?      ;)
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2017, 12:14:40 am »
I still struggle with the idea of needing to switch to primarily SMD / PCB work for one-off prototypes or projects.  If building several of something it is no doubt more efficient but I just don't see that for my hobbyist use - at least not yet.

I used to think it as needed for anything but low frequency projects until I learned that dead bug and Manhattan style prototyping can work well for any of the speeds I'm likely to require in the near future.

The lack of through hole ICs has forced me to learn to solder surface mount using adapter pcbs. Repair work has as well.  But otherwise I have no need for it on a regular basis.

The biggest drawback for me at this point is that I have absolutely no interest in spending time in front of a computer screen doing PCB layout. I spend way too much time on a computer for my day job. One of the main reasons I've taken up electronics as a hobby is to be able to build things with my hands and get away from the computer
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 12:16:44 am by mtdoc »
 
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