Author Topic: Come in through-hole components your time is up!  (Read 14396 times)

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Offline rs20

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2017, 09:02:12 am »
I think the most valid advantage of through-hole work is that it's the best if you need to design + deliver a circuit in a single day. But if you have a week or two spare and want to make something truly wonderful, then PCB+SMD is absolutely where it's at. And also, to borrow an analogy from cooking; it's worth making a distinction between "cooking time" (waiting for PCBs and parts to arrive) vs "preparation time" (actual time spent on designing PCBs, soldering, breaking veroboard tracks, etc). I'd confidently claim that for any decently complex project, the prep time for the SMD+PCB route is easily less than the throughhole+veroboard(or whatever) route.

I still struggle with the idea of needing to switch to primarily SMD / PCB work for one-off prototypes or projects.  If building several of something it is no doubt more efficient but I just don't see that for my hobbyist use - at least not yet.

Each to their own -- I did a reasonably complex veroboard design once, and grew tired of breaking all the tracks and having to design around the arbitrary imposition of horizontal traces. I encountered some small layout issue, and it just snowballed. I gave up at copied the same design down into the PCB software and the design took less time than the physical process of preparing (yet alone designing) the veroboard, it's a third the size and has twice the features. And this is a design that has a lot of through-hole (high power) components; being able to easily integrate SMD parts (an being able to access the huge library of SMD-only parts {i.e., anything developed in the last 20 years}) is yet another massive bonus on top of that.  But see below, I understand that different people have different priorities so might see things differently.

The biggest drawback for me at this point is that I have absolutely no interest in spending time in front of a computer screen doing PCB layout. I spend way too much time on a computer for my day job.

Interesting -- I grew up in front of a computer screen, so I don't find it any more taxing than being awake. I.e., I consider designing PCBs on the computer to be an entirely different and distinct activity from my day job, software engineering.
 

Offline TAMHAN

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2017, 02:58:31 pm »
This is a decision I recently had a BIG fight about with Raper, over a relatively simple design. We ended up going partially SMD, and I bought a Mantis to do hand soldering of prototypes. Here is what was our reasoning:

Pro SMD
Smaller

Our design shrunk by 50% as we could stack a process computer above another planar's SMD part.

Cheaper
No words...

Side-looking LEDs
Don't beat me: having to bend 5000 LEDs to make "side looking ones" by hand is a nuissance. Also, getting multiple LEDs next to one another to "look" the same length is difficult. With side looking LEDs, its super easy.



Pro and Contra SMD
Vibration resistance of SMALL parts - Questionable

According to various books I bought, SMD parts are more tolerant to vibration than their TTH counterparts. This is something my practical experience disputes: I saw multiple boards where SMD inductors (always inductors) had dislodged.

Looking for some input from the esteemed quorum on the last point!

Feel like some additional tamile wisdom? Visit my YouTube channel -> https://www.youtube.com/user/MrTamhan for 10min tid-bits!
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2017, 05:13:15 pm »

The biggest drawback for me at this point is that I have absolutely no interest in spending time in front of a computer screen doing PCB layout. I spend way too much time on a computer for my day job.

Interesting -- I grew up in front of a computer screen, so I don't find it any more taxing than being awake. I.e., I consider designing PCBs on the computer to be an entirely different and distinct activity from my day job, software engineering.

I've also been using a computers starting with a Z80 in the late 70sl. I spent a few years in my work life in the early 90s programming with LabView which has some similarities to PCB layout.  Now I spend way to much of my work day in front of a screen, using an Electronic Medical Record.

I have not doubt that once proficient with a PCB CAD software package that it's a quick and efficient way produce a small project.  But for me there are 2 roadblocks:

1)The thought of spending the screen time needed to become proficient with a PCB CAD software package makes me want to throw up.

2) I'm an inpatient sort - and when I want to build something, I want it NOW - waiting for the turn around from the PCB fab would be a buzz kill for me. The thought of setting up the needed space to make my own boards is also a non-starter.

Well, still I have no doubt that if I continue to advance in my knowledge and hobbiest skills, I will have to bite the bullet and tackle those obstacles.  In the meantime I'm having fun doing it the old school way.. :)
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2017, 05:59:50 pm »
Speaking of doing stuff the old school way it's mostly how I roll:


 


TBH though, I think I would have been better off getting boards made even if it was a one of project, that took way longer than I had anticipated. :P    But the nice part with this way is that I don't need to wait on a 3rd party or mess with making boards myself.   I tried to dead bug SMD but it's way too tedius to do. It can be done, but just not my idea of fun. Haha.   Suppose I need to figure out a better process to make it easier.  Maybe some kind of jig or something.  Then just make my own TH parts for one of projects using sections of perf board.   For anything I want to do more than one of then it makes sense to get boards made.  Or even get break out boards made instead of trying to deadbug. 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 06:02:46 pm by Red Squirrel »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2017, 06:11:04 pm »
Excellent Red Squirrel!  :-+

The thing is, no matter how long it took, it was time spent using your hands versus staring at a screen and clicking a mouse.

 

Offline rob77

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2017, 07:34:18 pm »
Excellent Red Squirrel!  :-+

The thing is, no matter how long it took, it was time spent using your hands versus staring at a screen and clicking a mouse.

so clicking a mouse is not "time spent using your hands"  :-//
btw  you can do your own boards ( i men manufacture them yourself) to have the "i made it with my hands" feeling. i'm making my own boards and using SMD parts and it's even better (in terms of good feeling from making it)  than protoboarding because let's admit it.. nice green boards with smd parts are tending to be more aesthetic than protoboards.
i'm not saying doing it the old way is inferior.. not at all.. i even admire the patience of people capable of routing wires for hours (like Red Squirrel above  :-+ ) , i'm just saying the smd boards are more aesthetic and you also have the "i made it with my hands satisfactory feeling" if you manufacture your boards at home like i do ;)

here are some examples of my boards:

 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2017, 07:42:39 pm »
Wow those actually home made? What kind of process did you use for that?  Did not really figure you could do SMD with toner transfer as most printers won't have enough DPI.  I imagine you're using something more precise like some kind of milling machine? 
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2017, 07:52:03 pm »
Excellent Red Squirrel!  :-+

The thing is, no matter how long it took, it was time spent using your hands versus staring at a screen and clicking a mouse.

so clicking a mouse is not "time spent using your hands"  :-//
btw  you can do your own boards ( i men manufacture them yourself) to have the "i made it with my hands" feeling.

No, using a mouse is not using one's hands in the sense of building something by hand. There's a certain primal satisfaction that some people feel when building something by hand.  For some people it can be taken to an extreme - for example wood workers who only use hand tools - no power tools.

The idea of making my own boards with the toner transfer, etc type methods using chemical etchant has no appeal to me but to each his or her own.
 
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Offline rob77

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2017, 08:00:16 pm »
Wow those actually home made? What kind of process did you use for that?  Did not really figure you could do SMD with toner transfer as most printers won't have enough DPI.  I imagine you're using something more precise like some kind of milling machine? 

those are not toner transfer but imaging is done with a cheap 600/1200dpi laser printer.

the proces is:

1. print the designs to polyester transparencies (polyester has great dimensional stability so the image is not distorted)
2. clean the copper clad
3. laminate riston dry-film photoresist with a cheapest office laminator possible
4. use UV light (few cheap UV LEDs with a simple led driver circuit will do) to transfer artwork
5. develop in washing soda (don't buy expensive developer solution, it's just plain cheap washing soda anyway)
6. etch in ferric chloride or whatever other etchant you prefer
7. remove photoresist with sodium hydroxide (regular drain cleaner) + clean the board
8. laminate dynamask dry film solder mask to the board (again with the cheap laminator)
9. UV light to transfer solder mask artwork
10. develop in washing soda
11. cure the solder mask with UV
12. enjoy the product ;) and start populate the parts. i use the cheap "mechanic" solder paste - using a toothpick to make little dabs of paste on the pads, then place components and heat it with hot air to reflow.

the proces might seem to be expensive , but it's not... the polyester transparencies are $25 per 100  A4 sheets - so approx 25 cents per A4 sheet, the riston photoresist is approx 50cents per A4 sheet, dynamask is $3 per A4 sheet. chemicals are cheap $2 for a kilo of washing soda (you need approx 17grams per liter) and $3-4 for the drain cleaner (approx 20-30 grams per liter).
quality 3W 400nm UV leds are approx $4 - you can even trasfer with a single UV led  (but i have overkill homemade rig with 15 of them - takes 5 seconds to expose the image)
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2017, 08:43:34 pm »
TH is in no way dead and in some little way we all need to help keep it alive......buy some and keep it in stock and alive.
How will we be able to repair old equipment without it.  :scared:

Sure we mostly need to progress to SMD for new design, especially for commercial production.

Here's what GK is doing in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscope-pong-for-1-or-2-players/



timb is doing the TH PCB that is nearly finished and he's intending to make it available to us.  :-+

Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Offline PixieDust

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2021, 03:13:06 pm »
Sorry for posting in an old thread, I think the topic is still pertinent. I was wondering how you prototype on breadboards if TH is dead? How do you prototype with TH?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2021, 03:16:29 pm by PixieDust »
 

Offline Algoma

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2021, 04:36:27 pm »
Various surface Mount adapter boards are very common and easy to find.  Simply surface mount your IC one one side and install the through hole pin headers.

They come in all shapes and sizes for almost every format.
 

Offline PixieDust

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2021, 02:50:24 am »
But what about all the other components like resistors, diodes etc? And besides, isn't part of the point of prototyping on a breadboard to test whether the actual component will be suitable? If you use different SMT components on the "good copy" from the TH components on the breadboard, you might run into issues? No? Seems this way you're prototyping twice!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 03:03:10 am by PixieDust »
 

Offline eti

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2021, 03:32:56 am »
If a question is asked, the asker is unsure.

 Since the asker is unsure, let me ask you this - have you considered how many devices are used by the military, of which GIGANTIC numbers are deployed, which are so vastly expensive that they’re expected to last (and be repairable) for decades - think that they need to be serviced, and the components needs to be VERY firmly attached, but which also need to be serviced in locations that can’t always be lifted out like an operating theatre (IE, on the battleground) and how many are legacy industrial devices which continue in manufacture as nothing “better” is needed, and their systems simply depend on things (“if it ain’t broke, don’t ‘fix’ it”)

I don’t see it. What I do see is many other forums having the same type of thread, over ten years ago, and yet ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ here we still are, and here through hole still is, still existing and doing very well thank you.

Not every single electronic device is a cheap piece of eBay tat that can be thrown away after a year.

Look at this:

Defence contracts are funded by bottomless pockets, and if they say THT stays, nothing else matters - that’s the final word on it, and since lots of our technology descends from military research… well… that’s all there is to it.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 03:35:46 am by eti »
 

Offline I wanted a rude username

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2021, 03:48:23 am »
But what about all the other components like resistors, diodes etc?

My personal workflow is to only breadboard discrete subassemblies.

E.g. a BH1620 on an adaptor plate, along with a few passives, to see how it works and to fine-tune the values of those passives, and maybe test a MOSFET or microcontroller pin to turn the whole lot off. Such subassemblies are translated into SMT on a first revision PCB, which has extra test points, solder bridges, 0 Ohm resistors, etc.

More complex sensors, drivers, etc. usually come on breakout boards and don't need to be breadboarded, just connected to the microcontroller dev board with Dupont cables.

You can't easily breadboard the really fast stuff anyway because of reflections, etc.
 

Offline John B

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2021, 04:17:02 am »
But what about all the other components like resistors, diodes etc?

My personal workflow is to only breadboard discrete subassemblies.

Yeah, I do the same. Only very limited breadboarding now before making a PCB.

I've made tons of stuff via the veroboard method, and it's very laborious and time consuming to bend individual bits of wire to connect everything. Then when I blew up things they were very difficult to repair/desolder so I tossed them aside most of the time.

I would also have to do a quasi-pcb design to plan out where all the parts went anyways, so I figured I might as well go straight to PCB.

I even surface mount my old through hole components now.  :-// Even your TO-220 packages will work fine SMD if you have enough room and don't need to dissipate much power.
 

Offline PixieDust

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2021, 06:26:52 am »
If a question is asked, the asker is unsure.

 Since the asker is unsure, let me ask you this - have you considered how many devices are used by the military, of which GIGANTIC numbers are deployed, which are so vastly expensive that they’re expected to last (and be repairable) for decades - think that they need to be serviced, and the components needs to be VERY firmly attached, but which also need to be serviced in locations that can’t always be lifted out like an operating theatre (IE, on the battleground) and how many are legacy industrial devices which continue in manufacture as nothing “better” is needed, and their systems simply depend on things (“if it ain’t broke, don’t ‘fix’ it”)

I don’t see it. What I do see is many other forums having the same type of thread, over ten years ago, and yet ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ here we still are, and here through hole still is, still existing and doing very well thank you.

Not every single electronic device is a cheap piece of eBay tat that can be thrown away after a year.

Look at this:

Defence contracts are funded by bottomless pockets, and if they say THT stays, nothing else matters - that’s the final word on it, and since lots of our technology descends from military research… well… that’s all there is to it.

Yep I've seen that video, but then you also read through threads on this forum and other forums which all point at the fact that ICs for example are pretty much all in SMT format now. Similarly, copper boards aren't cheap and SMT reduces the footprint quite drastically which is quite appealing in of itself. If you need to place SM components, why not switch over to SM for everything?

EDIT: But I see what you're saying, higher power stuff won't be making to SMT any time soon. I guess the following from a random article sums it up:

"Overall, surface mounting will almost always prove more efficient and cost-effective than through-hole mounting. It is used in more than 90 percent of PCBAs today. However, special mechanical, electrical, and thermal considerations will continue to require THM, keeping it relevant well into the future."

Thanks "I wanted a rude username" & "John B" I've only built less than 10 boards so far, some through hole and some surface mount. The TH I tested in a breadboard, the surface mount I just created the board and threw it out when it didn't work as expected and just made a new one. I guess that's how it works these days with SM.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 08:25:18 am by PixieDust »
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2021, 12:30:28 pm »
I read the post in full...

Some comments hold very true and should hold for quite some time..

Nevertheless blindly stating that THT is dead or any morbid thinking is a TOTAL BULLSHIT

Reason being (some already said):
- First and foremost there is no way to hold some parts unless using THT
- High power devices no matter how cute they craft packaging rely on heat dissipation on the PCB itself.. needless to say how stupid this is.. so THT is required to mount large heat sinks devices attached firmly
- More and more and more.. and more... I am stuck wasting my time looking for or developing myself breakout boards... just because there is no possible way to do real devel. in something that tiny or with ZERO pins or head connectors... so ..THT even to fit HEADERS...

The more stupid answers probably should remember that unless making everything in a "virtual model computer base thing..."  the whole SMT is meant to large production...

not develop.. not even a single piece of tiny shit.. ..
we just ccan not mount or handle that dust like parts...
SMT is cheap affordable.. easy to automate... period.
it is not meant otherwise..

The rest goes THT - put the header connectors.. the missing proper size.
and real world mechanics... we can not have peek and place machines everywhere..
and it just makes no sense such stupid sized thing ...

Paul
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 12:32:46 pm by PKTKS »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2021, 01:47:25 pm »
Sorry for posting in an old thread, I think the topic is still pertinent. I was wondering how you prototype on breadboards if TH is dead? How do you prototype with TH?
Who would use breadboards anyway? The major thing I recall from breadboard are flaky contacts. I use strip board which works just fine with SMT parts and chips can be mounted dead-bug style. Besides that most of the analog circuits I design start life in a simulator and more often than not I just create a PCB to test the circuit.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline PixieDust

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2021, 02:09:57 pm »
Besides that most of the analog circuits I design start life in a simulator and more often than not I just create a PCB to test the circuit.

Interesting, I was wondering how widespread SPICE use is.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2021, 02:26:56 pm »
Since the asker is unsure, let me ask you this - have you considered how many devices are used by the military, of which GIGANTIC numbers are deployed, which are so vastly expensive that they’re expected to last (and be repairable) for decades - think that they need to be serviced, and the components needs to be VERY firmly attached, but which also need to be serviced in locations that can’t always be lifted out like an operating theatre (IE, on the battleground) and how many are legacy industrial devices which continue in manufacture as nothing “better” is needed, and their systems simply depend on things (“if it ain’t broke, don’t ‘fix’ it”)

...

Defence contracts are funded by bottomless pockets, and if they say THT stays, nothing else matters - that’s the final word on it, and since lots of our technology descends from military research… well… that’s all there is to it.
You are suggesting that the military uses THT parts because of reliability. As a blanket statement, that is a complete and utter fabrication.

Yes, the military (and aerospace) generally demands high reliability, and often demands extremely long repairability and parts availability. But that simply ensures old component types will remain available (be it by continued manufacturing or by suppliers stockpiling parts). It doesn't say anything at all about whether or not an old component type is superior to a newer type.

A THT component need not be more reliable than an SMD equivalent. For example, SMD components often do better at vibration resilience.

You also imply that THT is more serviceable than SMD, and that, too, is only true to an extent. Each technology has its own challenges, and with the right tools, service is a routine thing. With the proper tools, an SMD component is often easier to replace than the THT version. I think people often think SMD is "harder" to work with, because they're working with tools fundamentally designed for THT, so yeah, it's gonna suck. But if you get tools designed for SMD, it's easy. (And those tools, in turn, suck at working with THT parts.)

And may I remind you that the military (and aerospace) was among the very first users of SMD parts? They've been using them since the 1960s, right alongside THT components.
 
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Offline Microdoser

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2021, 03:02:21 pm »
I use through hole when doing initial prototypes. The parts are larger, you can see what they are without using a scope, and you can disconnect them and reconnect them in various configurations more easily.

You can also shove them into a breadboard ;)

For later designs, I use as much SMD stuff as I can. I still like to have things like ethernet ports through hole, but this is only because you don't save any space because the connector itself is massive, and for fixing strength. Smaller connectors like smaller USB connectors can go SMD.

You can just do more with less space when you go SMD IMO
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2021, 04:20:52 pm »
I strongly prefer through hole for connectors as well for the mechanical strength.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline HobGoblyn

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2021, 12:11:49 am »
Sorry for posting in an old thread, I think the topic is still pertinent. I was wondering how you prototype on breadboards if TH is dead? How do you prototype with TH?
Who would use breadboards anyway? The major thing I recall from breadboard are flaky contacts.

Someone starting out in electronics, learning from books, YouTube etc, being able to quickly change parts/values etc on a breadboard, I personally think when starting out, it’s a necessity.

 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Come in through-hole components your time is up!
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2021, 01:52:14 am »
And may I remind you that the military (and aerospace) was among the very first users of SMD parts? They've been using them since the 1960s, right alongside THT components.

That must be rubbish, I mean you couldn't use nascent surface mount technology, stick it in a dirty great Saturn V rocket and launch it at the moon, could you?


Saturn V Launch Vehicle Digital Computer board.

Oh. Oh yes you could.  :)

Modern SMD chips are much more reliable than THT chips. I've been using tiny little DHVQFN16 packages for boring old 74 series logic recently.



These both literally contain the same silicon die. One is a a lot cheaper and takes up a lot less room on the board.

It would be pointless to do the "deciding which is left as an exercise for the student" bit.  :)

Nexperia (nee NXP) have this to say about the SMD packages:

Quote from: Nexperia Logic Handbook
Contact area vs. chip area: the key to mechanical strength

As mentioned in the previous section, leadless packages offer superior durability compared to leaded packages. The primary reason for this is quite simple: solder provides the mechanical connection between a device and the PCB, and packages that have a higher ratio of contact area to package area will have more solder relative to the size of the package/IC.

Leadless packages have far higher contact-area-to-chip-area ratio than the leaded parts. Furthermore, testing conducted by Nexperia has confirmed that leadless components can surpass leaded components in their ability to withstand both pull force and shear force.
(Emphasis mine)

It's intuitive. A package that weighs milligrams attached to a board by solder over almost 50% of its area versus a package that weighs perhaps 100x as much cantilevered off the board by lots of flexible metal pins that are subject to vibration induced fatigue (remember how quickly copper work hardens and breaks, I bet we've all deliberately snapped a copper wire in a few seconds by repeated bending).
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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