General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
tom66:
--- Quote from: Miyuki on August 03, 2022, 05:02:10 am ---The reason why you two are operating with different numbers is that you are talking about "cars" whereas in this average are not just cars but vans like Citroen e-SpaceTourer M
And it pushes the average significantly higher
--- End quote ---
Yep. If you split the list at the point where the Wh/100km goes over the average, the only vehicle there which isn't an SUV is the Mach-E -- and that's really a CUV by automotive standards so not much different. The Peugeot e-Rifter and Opel Combo-e are both vans, and they're 10% higher than the average.
Whereas on the bottom end you have the Model 3 at 151Wh/100km almost 50Wh less than the average, or the ID.3 at 166Wh (suggesting that VW need to up their efficiency game as the ID.3 is comparable in size to the 3.)
nctnico:
--- Quote from: Someone on August 03, 2022, 07:05:22 am ---
--- Quote from: Miyuki on August 03, 2022, 05:02:10 am ---The reason why you two are operating with different numbers is that you are talking about "cars" whereas in this average are not just cars but vans like Citroen e-SpaceTourer M
And it pushes the average significantly higher
--- End quote ---
Also, electric cars are most efficient in slow city traffic exactly where a fossil car is least efficient. On the highway the roles are reversed and fossil bombs are running closer to peak efficiency while electric battery tanks hit the laws of physics.
So when anyone with a strong bias wants to argue "facts" they're likely picking some unrepresentative numbers.
Comparable cars (same model!) on the Australian (older/slower NEDC type) testing:
--- End quote ---
NEDC is pretty optimistic where it comes to BEVs. When looking at a year round average (cold / hot) which includes a decent amount of highway driving (IOW: not using a car where a bicycle would be a better choice anyway), a reasonable ball park number for a BEV is 200Wh/km.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: Someone on August 03, 2022, 07:05:22 am ---
--- Quote from: Miyuki on August 03, 2022, 05:02:10 am ---The reason why you two are operating with different numbers is that you are talking about "cars" whereas in this average are not just cars but vans like Citroen e-SpaceTourer M
And it pushes the average significantly higher
--- End quote ---
Also, electric cars are most efficient in slow city traffic exactly where a fossil car is least efficient. On the highway the roles are reversed and fossil bombs are running closer to peak efficiency while electric battery tanks hit the laws of physics.
--- End quote ---
I would not term it "efficiency". I don't think the efficiency changes (unless you are a certain road test magazine that accounts for regenerative braking in a way that pushes efficiency over 100%). What changes is where the energy goes.
In city traffic, the ICE requires dissipative braking resulting in the ICE being used repeatedly to restore the momentum of the vehicle. The BEV simply restores the energy to the battery. On the highway, BOTH types of vehicles simply need to expend more energy to overcome the greater losses of high speed driving.
--- Quote ---So when anyone with a strong bias wants to argue "facts" they're likely picking some unrepresentative numbers.
Comparable cars (same model!) on the Australian (older/slower NEDC type) testing:
https://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/Vehicle/Search
Hyundai 2021 Kona EV 150kw Electric 13.1 kWh/100km
Hyundai 2021 Kona EV 100kW Electric 14.3 kWh/100km
Hyundai 2021 Kona 2.0 4cyl 6.2 l/100km
Hyundai 2021 Kona 1.6 4cyl Turbo 4wd 6.9 l/100km
They're one of the lowest claimed electric consumption per 100km across the market (bizarrely the reported figures are reverse of what would be expected for the different electric models!)
--- End quote ---
I don't follow what you mean, "reverse"?
I'm very impressed with the range of the 150kW model, >340 miles. I see that various sources report lower numbers. Since the battery is the same in each case, I wonder if there is some difference in fuel efficiency being reported.
--- Quote ---while mediocre on the fossils (and if you check the full database the combined is lower than either urban or extraurban for that last example). Its not unknown for manufacturers to have enhanced aero features/parts only added to some models within a lineup, making comparison even harder. But when the offical databases are this hard to follow/broken the numbers are close to guessing.
Don't know why EV's aren't reporting separately for urban/extraurban like "normal" vehicles.
--- End quote ---
What is an "aero feature"?
bdunham7:
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 02, 2022, 01:07:54 pm ---If you use less fuel with a hybrid, then you'll need less non-fossil fuel as a replacement. In turn this means that 1) synthetic / organic fuels may be significantly more expensive compared to fossil fuels while you can still get from A to B for the same price. 2) you'll need to produce less fuel in order to replace fossil fuel consumption.
--- End quote ---
It is unfortunate that nobody developed an E85-only hybrid, since an E85-only engine can be made even more efficient than the gasoline Prius engine by using even higher compression. E85 is typically much cheaper (32% on average IIRC) but has 25% less thermal energy per gallon. The increased efficiency would probably make up for about half that, meaning a slight reduction in range or increase in fuel tank size along with lower operating costs and an 85% non-fossil fuel. Sadly E85 isn't common enough for this to be a viable product. An E85 only Prius Prime would really slash fossil-fuel usage.
tom66:
There are a couple of diesel hybrids, which theoretically could run on some forms of biodiesel if well refined.
Examples include the Mercedes "BlueEfficiency Diesel" PHEV and Citroen DS5 Hybrid.
I don't know of any North American examples -- maybe in trucks. Ford has some hybrid F150 but it's petrol powered.
There are issues with diesel hybrids due to the short-cycling of the engine, so they didn't seem to gain much market share compared to petrol hybrids. I think it's telling that VW didn't attempt to make any given they liked to pretend they were well ahead on diesel tech (or at least the cheating part)
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